Chinese E-V13 CTS1273 ?

[sojc]

Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

[sojc]

and sorry for the typos, 5am post after burning the midnight oil getting some projects done :P

[Riverman]

It would be great if you could do a NGS test for your YDNA and get the terminal SNP, this could prove to be very interesting. Obviously there are many possible migration paths, if the results are correct, but the most likely one seems to be with Western steppe people, of which some assimilated at some point E-V13 clans, probably around the Carpathians. When these steppe people with additional European farmer ancestry moved back, with the Sintashta-Andronovo culture, they reached as far as Mongolia. The Scythians in particular seem to have had wide ranging contacts, so its also possible that a later Scythian gene flow from the Carpathian/South Russian region brought it. That's really a question of timing, when and where exactly it was brought to the East. But Indo-Iranians ("Aryans") is the most likely source in any case. Tocharian is less likely.

This ancient Iranian/Indo-Iranian element survived for quite long in the East, played an important role in varoius state formations and persisted even among the Xiongnu. These Indo-Europeans mixed with local East Asians, almost as soon as they arrived in the East. So probably you descent from the Pazyryk people paternally (?):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture

A more detailed result with your terminal SNP could be very helpful in determining your exact branch and TMRCA with West Eurasians. Because its also possible that later migrants brought it. Like you say, a trader, diplomat, scholar or the like.

[sojc]

It would be great if you could do a NGS test for your YDNA and get the terminal SNP, this could prove to be very interesting. Obviously there are many possible migration paths, if the results are correct, but the most likely one seems to be with Western steppe people, of which some assimilated at some point E-V13 clans, probably around the Carpathians. When these steppe people with additional European farmer ancestry moved back, with the Sintashta-Andronovo culture, they reached as far as Mongolia. The Scythians in particular seem to have had wide ranging contacts, so its also possible that a later Scythian gene flow from the Carpathian/South Russian region brought it. That's really a question of timing, when and where exactly it was brought to the East. But Indo-Iranians ("Aryans") is the most likely source in any case. Tocharian is less likely.

This ancient Iranian/Indo-Iranian element survived for quite long in the East, played an important role in varoius state formations and persisted even among the Xiongnu. These Indo-Europeans mixed with local East Asians, almost as soon as they arrived in the East. So probably you descent from the Pazyryk people paternally (?)

A more detailed result with your terminal SNP could be very helpful in determining your exact branch and TMRCA with West Eurasians. Because its also possible that later migrants brought it. Like you say, a trader, diplomat, scholar or the like.

Thank you for all the interesting information. In the future I plan to do one of those tests eventually. Is there a recommend company for best value terminal SNP tests? I know YSEQ does a E-V13 panel for $88 USD.

[Riverman]

If you get your terminal SNP with less than 200 USD, its a good deal I'd say. I'm not up to date to which company offers the best deal right now. I can just tell you I paid more.
I would be very interested to know your result by the way, because I always wondered about the presence of V13 on the Central and Eastern steppe, also in North East Asia

[sojc]

Will certainly post when I do get it done. Would be very interested as well to see if there's a small E-V13 population in Shandong China through old migration, or if it was just recent :)

[Aspurg]

Hi, interesting to hear of Chinese E-CTS1273, and for sure get some SNP profiling done, I doubt this is some recent link looking at these older links you mentioned. Although some recent link is ofc possible, I think a more ancient link is more likely. Could be some Scythian V13 clade. In any case your result might be of some importance for V13. ;)

[sojc]

Just ordered the E-V13 subgroup panel from YSEQ, so I'll update the results hopefully in 1-3 months once it is available :)

If it's a very recent Euro subgroup I guess it indicates more likely recent arrival, if it's an older and more eastern subgroup it might be interesting to guess how far a population might have reached.

[Progon]

Just ordered the E-V13 subgroup panel from YSEQ, so I'll update the results hopefully in 1-3 months once it is available :)

If it's a very recent Euro subgroup I guess it indicates more likely recent arrival, if it's an older and more eastern subgroup it might be interesting to guess how far a population might have reached.

Welcome to the E-V13 family.

[kingjohn]

maybe a trader
left in one of his journeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo

[Progon]

maybe a trader
left in one of his journeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo

Reading this, it might be true. j/k :P

Some old Venetian historical sources considered Polo's ancestors to be of far Dalmatian origin.

[kuzmosi]

You are welcome, son of our 4500 years old father.

As Riverman and Aspurg said, I think too. Our CTS1273 father probably lived somewhere near the Carpathians and he was merged to a proto-indo european tribe. The horse and livestock herder tribes traversed a vast area. From the Danube river to the Amur river.

The YSEQ EV13 panel is the best choice. The YSEQ is fast, cheap and exact. I'm very curious with you final position on our family tree. Please will tell us the final SNP.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/

By the way, I have only hungarian and rusyn ancestors from the northeastern Carpathians, but according my 23andMe result, I have 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA as trace ancestry and my mother has 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA too.

[sojc]

Welcome to the E-V13 family.

Thank you :)

[sojc]

maybe a trader
left in one of his journeys

Lol, has been on my mind it was someone like him. Originally 23andMe gave my father and me both 0.4% Italian originally from a few hundred years ago
...but a recent update changed that to 0.2% British/Irish for him, and eliminated prediction of Europe from me :P

(Myheritage gives me some British and Finnish with my data, and Eurogenes k13 gave me some Baltic (not Balkans). The fact that 23andMe, LivingDNA, and MyHeritage all give some trace different European DNA for Me and my Father makes me only able to conclude there is some European and/or Anatolian, but can't say a country the E-V13 came from. The fact there is some trace European autosomal segments pushes me much more toward thinking it is probably more recent E-V13 from an adventurous trader like Marco Polo in China than a very ancient population haha.)

[sojc]

You are welcome, son of our 4500 years old father.

As Riverman and Aspurg said, I think too. Our CTS1273 father probably lived somewhere near the Carpathians and he was merged to a proto-indo european tribe. The horse and livestock herder tribes traversed a vast area. From the Danube river to the Amur river.

The YSEQ EV13 panel is the best choice. The YSEQ is fast, cheap and exact. I'm very curious with you final position on our family tree. Please will tell us the final SNP.



By the way, I have only hungarian and rusyn ancestors from the northeastern Carpathians, but according my 23andMe result, I have 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA as trace ancestry and my mother has 0,3% manchurian-mongolian DNA too.

Thank you :)

I had heard that the ancestral peninsula between Beijing and Korea (present day Shandong province, former State of Qi) my dad's family name (Tian) historically used to rule 2200-2400 years ago was previously inhabited by caucasians (guess probably steppe people) before the Han population expanding from the west overtook it. Wonder if it was possible some of the previous Shandong people were E-V13, if Marco Polo didn't bring it :)

I'm awaiting the YSEQ E-V13 panel in the mail to arrive to me, and hopefully with Covid the results won't take too much longer than usual. I will certainly share the results here.

[ThirdTerm]

Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo and they could have been training locals there in the Third Century BC. European DNA was discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and these ancient Greeks may have introduced E-V13, which is a predominant paternal lineage in modern Greece. Ancient China suddenly became civilised around the time of the First Emperor who is best known for the Greek-inspired Terracotta Army.

Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo’s historic trip to the east and helped design the famous Terracotta Army, according to new research.

The startling claim is based on two key pieces of evidence: European DNA discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and the sudden appearance of life-sized statues.

Before this time, depictions of humans in China are thought to have been figurines of up to about 20cm.

But 8,000 extraordinarily life-like terracotta figures were found buried close to the massive tomb of China’s First Emperor, Qin Shi Huang, who unified the country in 221BC.

The theory – outlined in a documentary, The Greatest Tomb on Earth: Secrets of Ancient China, to be shown on BBC Two on Sunday – is that Shi Huang and Chinese artists may have been influenced by the arrival of Greek statues in central Asia in the century following Alexander the Great, who led an army into India.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a7357606.html

[sojc]

Greek artists could have travelled to China 1,500 years before Marco Polo and they could have been training locals there in the Third Century BC. European DNA was discovered at sites in China’s Xinjiang province from the time of the First Emperor in the Third Century BC and these ancient Greeks may have introduced E-V13, which is a predominant paternal lineage in modern Greece. Ancient China suddenly became civilised around the time of the First Emperor who is best known for the Greek-inspired Terracotta Army.

Lol, China did not suddenly become civilized or have a jump in technology with the 1st emperor (he was just the final winner at the end of hundreds of years of fighting in the Warring states period of China). The 1st Chinese dynasty (The Xia dynasty, who were classified as Kings rather than Emperors) started around 2100 BC back when the continental Greeks were still looked down upon by the Minoans as primitive, and 500 years before the Mycenaean Greek civilization started. The 2nd Dynasty (the Shang dynasty), which had advanced bronze working and writing started at 1600 BC around the same time as the Mycenaean Greeks.

I do agree though that there could have been much more than currently known Greek genetic and cultural influence in China since Alexander.

[Archetype0ne]

Lol, China did not suddenly become civilized or have a jump in technology with the 1st emperor (he was just the final winner at the end of hundreds of years of fighting in the Warring states period of China). The 1st Chinese dynasty (The Xia dynasty, who were classified as Kings rather than Emperors) started around 2100 BC back when the continental Greeks were still looked down upon by the Minoans as primitive, and 500 years before the Mycenaean Greek civilization started. The 2nd Dynasty (the Shang dynasty), which had advanced bronze working and writing started at 1600 BC around the same time as the Mycenaean Greeks.

I do agree though that there could have been much more than currently known Greek genetic and cultural influence in China since Alexander.

Agree with your points mate. "Chinese" or more pedantically speaking proto-Chinese culture spans millennia, and it rivals if not surpasses any culture/s the west has to offer. I personally doubt the terracotta army has anything to do with classical Greece, despite the slight resemblance in style.

[Riverman]

The real question being how Bronze, later Iron and chariots came to China. The relationship to Greece might be that the very same people from the steppe brought horses and chariots to the Mediterranean and East Asia, but that doesn't imply actual Greeks moving to the East of course. And even if they did, any genetic contribution, if at all, should have been extremely small in comparison to that of the steppe people.

The terracotta army is interesting as it depicts the different ethnicities which fought for the great emperor. And its among those warriors you find clear influences, especially in weaponry and clothing, from the steppe neighbours. These influences must have been far greater when these new tactics, tools and techniques were first introduced to China. On the cultural side its a clear cut thing, on the genetic it is not as much, even though Northern Chinese have West Eurasian and steppe ancestry. That's because the timing matters. When did this ancestry enter China for the most part? At the start of the horsemanship and/or Bronze technology in China, or with later immigrations from Scythians and Turks?
Only ancient DNA can make the difference, but modern yDNA shows how much of these old lineages survived where and which were involved.

[sojc]

The real question being how Bronze, later Iron and chariots came to China. The relationship to Greece might be that the very same people from the steppe brought horses and chariots to the Mediterranean and East Asia, but that doesn't imply actual Greeks moving to the East of course. And even if they did, any genetic contribution, if at all, should have been extremely small in comparison to that of the steppe people.

The terracotta army is interesting as it depicts the different ethnicities which fought for the great emperor. And its among those warriors you find clear influences, especially in weaponry and clothing, from the steppe neighbours. These influences must have been far greater when these new tactics, tools and techniques were first introduced to China. On the cultural side its a clear cut thing, on the genetic it is not as much, even though Northern Chinese have West Eurasian and steppe ancestry. That's because the timing matters. When did this ancestry enter China for the most part? At the start of the horsemanship and/or Bronze technology in China, or with later immigrations from Scythians and Turks?
Only ancient DNA can make the difference, but modern yDNA shows how much of these old lineages survived where and which were involved.

I have heard from my parents that DNA ancestry testing is very recently becoming more and more popular on Chinese social media and wechat, unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read any of their results, so if any ancient steppe haplogroups populations still survive in areas it hopefully will become much more apparent in he next few years.

[Riverman]

I have heard from my parents that DNA ancestry testing is very recently becoming more and more popular on Chinese social media and wechat, unfortunately I don't speak Chinese so I can't read any of their results, so if any ancient steppe haplogroups populations still survive in areas it hopefully will become much more apparent in he next few years.

They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?

[sojc]

They did survive, but it remains open to debate:
- Which other haplogroups than R1a were involved and to which extend are they still present in different regions of China
- When did they reach China, with which people (early Indo-Europeans, later Iranians like Scythians, with Turko-Mongol migrations or a mix of these?)

It might become possible to link specific Chinese clans or villages with these or that ancient people in the near future. I too would be very interested to know those results. Do you know what DNA testing companies they are using by the way?

I know one of them is 'Wegene' https://www.wegene.com/en/ which supposedly has one of the best databases specifically for detailed ancestry of different Chinese regions, and allows you to upload other major DNA data for free (though might go to the Chinese government) for analysis from their database.

Other than that I don't know directly which platforms are most popular from people in China, but next time I skype with my parents I'll try to remember to ask them to ask their friends on wechat if any platforms are popular there, and I'll post it here.

[Aaron1981]

Hi everybody. Hope covid lockdown has been a good time to get better at hobbies for some.

My father (born in northeast China and identifies as full Han Chinese) and I (born in Canada, with mother full Chinese) are E-V13 according to 23andme, and when I put our results in MorleyDNA's Y subgroup predictor it returned most likely CTS1273 for both of us. Prior we believed we were of full north-eastern Chinese ancestry. 23andme autosomal gives my dad some vague European results at 0.4%, and the furthest west for me was some tiny central Asian. I later did Ancestry (full Chinese/Korean results, nothing else) and livingDNA (1.8% Anatolian, 1.3% Northwestern European) for myself. My MtDNA haplogroup is A4, and my father's Mt group is G1a. My dad's ancestry was believed to be in the Shandong province of China for at least 2500 years, as my surname (Tian) were the Kings of the State of Qi until we had a war with the 1st Chinese emperor (we lost).

I am curious how E-V13 got so far east? No one in the family has much of a clue and up until the Communist revolution my dad's side were established landlords and nobility. My hunch would be either it was there for a very long time, a European silk-road trader brought it there in the last few hundred years, or somehow it trickled east from some Greek soldiers or Russian influence.

Anyone's thoughts/guesses/hunches would be very welcome.

Roland

It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..

[sojc]

It's definitely there, but distant. I've never heard of any full Han Chinese person getting any European on any test, so yes, its somewhere deep back in your father's family tree. E-V13 may have been spread among the Cardium pottery culture of southern Europe, or some wave of Neolithic Europeans from ancient Anatolia. It is found just about anywhere in Europe today, but arrived there from the South East no doubt. Congrats on your results, definitely a first that I've seen. EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, if your father shows 0.4% on 23andMe, it may only date to the 1700's sometime which could put it in the frame of Imperial Britain, who do carry E-V13 on occasion, albeit far more rarely than R1b. Greek and Silk road are far too ancient to show up on this test without some miracle in inheritance. Both mtDNAs seem to be irrelevant here, since they appear to be native to eastern Asia. The outlier is most definitely the direct paternal heritage, and with no disrespect, has definitely not been in Shandong for 2500 years, probably only 350 or so..

Yes amorous adventure is certainly high on the list of what could have happened :) Hopefully the E-V13 subgroup test on the way might shed some light, but would be much much easier to possibly track down if it were recent haha.

Also if it was recent I wouldn't put much stock into it being British, because 23andMe originally gave it as 0.4% Italian before an update a few months back. Other companies for my own DNA give tiny amount of different countries ranging from Western Turkey, Finland, Spain, Northwest Europe etc. All I can be certain of at this point is E-V13 and whatever the subgroup results will be once I get them.

[Yetos]

It is not strange at all, but must be very rare,

Tayuan,
City of strong Iones,
Also the Serica Σηραι, at Xinjiang

Qian, the war for Heavenly Horses,
Han and Greco-Bactrians and Seleykides knew each other.
there is enough Hellenistic archaiology in China,

besides it can also be after that, the times of medieval silk trade,
of Doucas emperror, centuries before Marco Polo,
When Con\polis monopolize silk trade for West.

it can also be from kid adaptation of what we say Mongol empires,
they use to steal and adop kids and raise them,


Although very very rare, it is not surprising,