Shift from G2 to I2 dominance and WHG resurgence between the Early_N and the Late_N

I guess what Dagne is proposing, and she can correct me if I'm wrong, is a possible scenario in which they firstly mixed normally, but at certain point something happened* (climate change, for example); something that affected more farmers than those who kept some of the HG lifestyle. If so, it would not have been a replacement according to her, but just one group almost dying out, whereas the other (already mixed) "continued". It naturally implies the two groups were a bit different, but an explanation for the bias towards farmer autosomal would still lack.
*
41467_2018_4375_Fig1_HTML.jpg

Inasmuch as I remember farmers were very fertile compared to hunter gatherers - for the farmer accumulating wealth meant having as many as possible children, as these meant working force/prosperity/security. Hunter gatherers could perhaps sustain better under some conditions, but overall were pushed away by farmers from warm/fertile regions to North/East where farmers could not live because of swampy forest, taiga.

However, HG community would not expand even in good times, like farmers or pastoralists did (who most probably had a lifestyle where accumulating wealth and influence was the target)
 
Inasmuch as I remember farmers were very fertile compared to hunter gatherers - for the farmer accumulating wealth meant having as many as possible children, as these meant working force/prosperity/security. Hunter gatherers could perhaps sustain better under some conditions, but overall were pushed away by farmers from warm/fertile regions to North/East where farmers could not live because of swampy forest, taiga.

Foragers were the strongest when they could combine rich aquatic resources with hunting and gathering in forests. This was the case in Northern Europe and in the river zones of the North Pontic in particular, where the hunter gatherer were on par with the Neolithics for quite long.

However, HG community would not expand even in good times, like farmers or pastoralists did (who most probably had a lifestyle where accumulating wealth and influence was the target)

That's not true. They adapted to the circumstances, which means less children, probably more abortions and infanticides, if the situation was desperate, but rapid expansions if possible. That's how humans populated the world and repopulated e.g. after the Ice Age or replaced weaker, less competitive forager groups. The idea of the stable hunter gatherers comes mostly from places where no innovation and expansion took place any more and the foragers adapted to the carryong capacity of their region. But that was only a phase for most of the forager cultures. Some were caught in it, at the fringes, but of course, hunter gatherers did expand big time on various occasions.

This case however is different, because its a hunter clan transitioning to a Neolithic lifestyle with farmer wives.
 
Foragers were the strongest when they could combine rich aquatic resources with hunting and gathering in forests. This was the case in Northern Europe and in the river zones of the North Pontic in particular, where the hunter gatherer were on par with the Neolithics for quite long.



That's not true. They adapted to the circumstances, which means less children, probably more abortions and infanticides, if the situation was desperate, but rapid expansions if possible. That's how humans populated the world and repopulated e.g. after the Ice Age or replaced weaker, less competitive forager groups. The idea of the stable hunter gatherers comes mostly from places where no innovation and expansion took place any more and the foragers adapted to the carryong capacity of their region. But that was only a phase for most of the forager cultures. Some were caught in it, at the fringes, but of course, hunter gatherers did expand big time on various occasions.

This case however is different, because its a hunter clan transitioning to a Neolithic lifestyle with farmer wives.

I don't believe it that a hunter gatherer could be turned into a farmer. And yes, farmers were much more fertile than hunter gatherers. Besides, hunter gatherers lived in small groups and their density had never been high. It is a very different way of life from farmers. Now you describe a situation "HG taking farmer wives" it is not working, as living in farmer community would mean eating different food, having to work, not being able to hunt/fish as farmers were too noisy, they burned forest which was sacred for HG and which was the main source for their food and livelihood. So it must have been absolutely intolerable for a pure HG to be turned into farmer be it a man or a woman.

This is from a study of 2016 where HG and early Neolithic Farmer ways of life are describe connecting it to fertility and neolithic expansion
https://www.pnas.org/content/113/17/4694

The Neolithic transition was associated with sedentarization, food storage, wealth accumulation, and wealth inequality as well as increasing population size (3, 4, 6, 7). It has been suggested that cultivation increased calorie availability which, combined with a reduction in energy expenditure resulting from sedentarization, led to increased energy availability for reproduction (810). As a result, although exact estimates vary, it has been argued that average population growth rates rose from <0.001% to ∼0.04% per year during the early Neolithic (6, 8, 1117).The transition to agriculture in the Neolithic significantly depressed health, the overall fitness payoff was greater.

Therefore, the proposed quality–quantity trade-off provides an adaptive mechanism that reconciles deteriorating health, increased mortality, and demographic expansion following the spread of agriculture in the Neolithic. Finally, because high fertility rates were accompanied by relatively high mortality rates, the trade-off also explains why population numbers did not explode during the Neolithic but instead increased relatively slowly (
8), perhaps because large increases in fertility were matched by increases in mortality (17).

Research reveals increased prevalence of tuberculosis, syphilis, and the plague (6, 2325), overall immunological stress (26), and a deterioration in oral health (16, 27, 28). Farming led to higher population densities, sedentarization, increased contact with neighboring populations, the presence of rodents attracted by food stores, the domestication of animals, and fecal pollution (2931). All those factors facilitated the spread of virulent bacterial and viral pathogens as well as soil-borne helminths (roundworm, hookworm, and whipworm) (3238). Although some argue that Paleolithic foragers experienced high helminth loads (37, 39, 40), archaeological data instead show an increase in helminths in farming populations (33, 4145) as compared with mobile, low-density hunter-gatherers. In summary, the overall effect of agriculture on health was a trend toward increasing morbidity and mortality (16, 19, 28, 46), although the intensity of the trend exhibits some regional variation and inconsistencies (4756).


So do you think hunter gatherers who lived freely wanted to become farmers?

 
I don't believe it that a hunter gatherer could be turned into a farmer.

Most HG were reluctant, that's true, but it happened often enough and don't forget, even the first farmers were foragers before, like the Natufians.

Besides, hunter gatherers lived in small groups and their density had never been high.

Those foragers were eliminated for the most part, with only single individuals surviving here and there. But the situation was different in the places mentioned, among e.g. Mesolithic communities in Scandinavia and Southern Russia. There people transitioned to a more sedentary, higher culture without turning into full farmers, but became pastoralists only later.

It is a very different way of life from farmers. Now you describe a situation "HG taking farmer wives" it is not working, as HG might have lived in matriarchal communities (at least in the Baltics they likely did)

The Baltic foragers were among the losers, can't say much about them, but matriarchy is a myth, the true Bachofen matriarchy never existed and the hunter-fishers in Southern Russia seem to have been patriarchal, so were other groups. The pattern of patriarchal clans eliminating each other, but accepting some foreign wives of the defeated party is old, its older than farming.

So do you think hunter gatherers who lived freely wanted to become farmers?


Usually not, but under specific circumstances yes, especially if becoming integrated into larger Neolithic frameworks with new symbols, ideologies and opportunities.

I cannot see how to turn a hunter gatherer into farmer. Neither a man or a woman.

Early farming was often enough largely a female business. Hoe-farming in particular is a typical female occupation. So what I would imagine happened somewhere in Northern Italy-Southern France, if following the study, is that the local hunter gatherers took, one way or another, farmer wives from the Cardial Neolithic people. Those women, this is something you see quite often, kept a lot of their ways from home and were actually quite useful for the clan, as they added resources and knowledge. So it might have happened not in one, but in a couple of generations, with the mixed offspring becoming more and more like the Cardial people, but not fully so and, probably because of a different language, ethnicity and ideology, they didn't intermix afterwards with other Cardial, after the initial mixture, at least there were not foreign males accepted. In the earliest farming communities, you often see males as hunters and pastoralists, while the females did gathering and hoe-farming. Basically the females could feed themselves for the most part, which made them much more valuable than forager wives which could contribute less and needed more investment. That's not to say it was like that everywhere, again those foragers living from aquatic foods were different, but its true for many typical hunters with gathering being of lower importance.
A lot of hoe-farming societies are polygynic for that reason too, because women produce more than they consume. Primary hunters with a low importance of farming, high investment of males into their wives, are less likely to be polygynic in comparison. I think farmer wives were, not just because they were prettier, quite in demand once foragers saw how it worked out. Most of the pottery was a female business too. So basically you have to look at the male side of things for differences in such a mixed community, and there you can see it in Southern France: They were Cardial Neolithics, but deviated in a typical way. Because the female contribution was Cardial, the male was not.
 
I can see you yourself know more than all the rest of the scientists and researches combined, so no references for your theories are needed.
 
The Baltic foragers were among the losers,
Baltic foragers were among the winners as they passed most of their genes to the current living population (Lithuanians are more than by 50% HG genetically, from different sources and much less so farmers)
 
I can see you yourself know more than all the rest of the scientists and researches combined, so no references for your theories are needed.

Not at all. I just saw the I2a/WHG/cultural shift in the Middle Neolithic and predicted a compact source being responsible for most of it, rather than trickling of HG ancestry here and there. I would, however, never have guessed that this phenomenon started in Northern Italy-Southern France, within the ICC sphere. That's something only the real scientists could prove with new data in combination with archaeological models.
Now its all about how these Southern French clans expanded on, to the North and West, and this, in all likelihood, happened not in a way of peaceful cooperation, regardless of how the original core group in Southern France came up.

I had France on the radar as a potentinal source, but didn't thought it happened that early, that far South. Only hard data could prove it and convince me. About the mechanisms of its spread we can debate, that's still speculative, agreed, but that it happened is now an established fact. The 2nd study on French and German samples, providing Michelsberger being an I2a-E1b alliance, is another branch newly detected in the Middle Neolithic "reemergence" of WHG. Its always about newly successful clans doing most of the spreading work. Its not individual exchange.

How much of the HG ancestry in the Baltic can be attributed to local survival is up to debate, but they count at least as survivors, so losers might have been too harsh indeed.
 
Baltic foragers were among the winners as they passed most of their genes to the current living population (Lithuanians are more than by 50% HG genetically, from different sources and much less so farmers)

The men didn't get to pass on their ydnas as I2 is low in these regions and likely from a different source. Even the Baltic EHG men didn't get to pass on their genes either as R1b was eliminated by R1a in that region.
 
not too valuable remarks of mine:
Have we big enough samples of enough places of neolithic to theorize local cases of brutal changes or slow evolution? Very often the first surveys about Neolithic provided more mtDNA than Y-DNA.
Have we studied the geographic distribution of first megalithic boom? I have the impression that the phenomenon found birth very often near maritime shores.
advantages taken from mixture of economic means, more diversified and adapted, as opposed to too specialized early economic systems of "pure" farmers of central and -E Europe?
marginal groups mixing economic systems, with better adaptation to local conditions, coasts (western Eruope or Northern Europe) or hilly-mountainous regions as in APLc at the mergins of Hungary and Slovakia?
hazard(?): in this transition, diverse groups of Y-I2a2 seem the bigger winners, compared to Y-I2a1 diverse ones...
ATW in West, these megalithic groups seems forming a great network , maritime at first, and then progressing towards East and central Europe or Northeastern Europe... Optical illusion.
I wrote this hastly, so in cannot go deeper into this interesting debate.

&: the land settling, surely the religion, and the heavier part taken by meat (and fish evidently) in the food seem pointing to a not-hazardous and not-spotty evolution of the megalithic Neolithic in most of those cases, even if we cannot exclude some peculiar cases in some places.
 
The men didn't get to pass on their ydnas as I2 is low in these regions and likely from a different source. Even the Baltic EHG men didn't get to pass on their genes either as R1b was eliminated by R1a in that region.

The most popular y haplogroup in Lithuania is N, so in terms of father to son inheritance, arctic forager haplogroup is the winner.
 
The most popular y haplogroup in Lithuania is N, so in terms of father to son inheritance, arctic forager haplogroup is the winner.

I wouldn't call that arctic foragers, because they were rather Iron Age conquerors and traders. In the same way as the Corded Ware people, when moving up to the North, were no longer foragers any more. At some point all people were foragers, but that was no successful model on the long run.
 
The most popular y haplogroup in Lithuania is N, so in terms of father to son inheritance, arctic forager haplogroup is the winner.

Baltic foragers (R1b and I2) were among the losers but yes East Asian foragers were successful for whatever reason.
 
Baltic foragers (R1b and I2) were among the losers but yes East Asian foragers were successful for whatever reason.

They were no foragers any more but got taught by Indo-Iranians and developed their own cultural adaptation for the fringe regions of habitation by people with a higher culture at that time. Most likely they brought Seima-Turbino culture and innovations to the North East of Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon

 

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