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Thread: Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... it’s not about you,
    a lot of people don't know who we really are, but they like to write a lot ... about us, your Region, mine and others ...

    Many of the “experts “ who write endlessly about our Regions and Ancestry, are not motivated by a genuine academic interest or curiosity, each of them has their reasons ... (God bless their heart) ... :)

    They think they know a lot about us, but they don't ...
    Thanks and I agree with what you said. Very well stated. I will go even further, I think there has always been the notion by many a different group of peoples to want the ancient Greeks and Romans to look like Nordics and have their genetics and sound like BBC Commentators. Sort of like some of the fundamentalist types I grew up around with that thought Saint Peter and Saint Paul "used the King James Bible" Totally different subject but the mentality was always the same.

    But you as I do get closest ancient populations Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome and you as I do get closest modern population Italian and Greek. So if that does not suggest genetic continuity overall with some regional variations in admixture here and there, I don't know what does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From my perspective, the ancestry that arrived from the east either directly or through the Greeks is just mainly the same old, same old. The new arrivals carried Anatolia Neolithic, which had been in Europe for 7,000 years already. It carried more Iran Neo/CHG, but some of that was part of the genesis of the Anatolia Neolithic in the first place, and more had been dribbling in since the Bronze Age. It was just the arrival of some long separated distant cousins. It's not like the Han Chinese suddenly migrated in, for heaven's sake.

    Some people want to obfuscate this fact and label these newcomers as "alien", somehow, not people very similar to whose who make up 40-50% of their own ancestry, but now alien "Middle Easterners" who would pollute their blood. Is it the additional Iran Neo which is so objectionable? Yet that makes no sense to me because it was extremely similar to the ancestry which formed 40-50% of the ancestry of the steppe people whom they so want to share ancestry with...

    Maybe all the fuss is because of some minor amount of "Levant" Bronze Age ancestry which slipped in. Is antisemitism really still so virulent in some of these people, that and hatred of Middle Eastern refugees, that they'll distort history and population genetics to find it only in people in Europe they can label the "other". Just think what would happen if these kinds of people came into power again, and what a tool genetic testing would be for them.

    I find it bizarre but not really surprising.

    There was population mixing throughout human history: Neanderthals and Denisovans with each other and with modern humans (and who knows how many other hominids), Levant Neolithic with Anatolia Neolithic, both with Iran Neolithic, Anatolia Neolithic with WHG, EHG with Iran Neo/CHG, steppe people with Middle Neolithic people, etc. all mixtures of far more different people from one another than any incoming Aegean like people with local inhabitants of the Italic peninsula and Sicily. That 's more akin to somebody saying the Danes were a brand new population from the Angles and Saxons, or even the Saxons from the Britons. These are just shades of difference.



    Far more important to me than these minor genetic differences are what incoming people brought with them. Did they bring new crops, new innovation, architecture, art, literacy, or rape, rapine, the mass destruction of infrastructure, death and disease?
    it's very easy, it is not hatred of refugees its hatred of near east in general. those people, not just at anthrogenica but rather all "eurocentrics", don't want to believe the deep genetic connection that europeans have with modern near eastern people. so to seperate what can't be seperated they have to cut their own flesh and distort population genetics.
    even if there were hordes of phoenicians in sicily nothing really new would have been added. they were all distant cousins as you said so well. and all further developed than most of europe. same with carthaginians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    it's very easy, it is not hatred of refugees its hatred of near east in general. those people, not just at anthrogenica but rather all "eurocentrics", don't want to believe the deep genetic connection that europeans have with modern near eastern people. so to seperate what can't be seperated they have to cut their own flesh and distort population genetics.
    even if there were hordes of phoenicians in sicily nothing really new would have been added. they were all distant cousins as you said so well. and all further developed than most of europe. same with carthaginians.

    You are mixing and confusing 2 different things,

    I think it is obvious that in your mind you created an idea of 'hatred'
    and chew it as chewing gum everywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    You are mixing and confusing 2 different things,

    I think it is obvious that in your mind you created an idea of 'hatred'
    and chew it as chewing gum everywhere.
    can you elaborate on what those 2 different things are? you really believe that people who think any additional near eastern ancestry is pollution or making people less european hate on refugees just because of their culture or religion? i think you don't know what we are dealing with here.

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    Ailchu: I think I remember you and me discussing migrant and EU policies in another forum. While I am not a moderator (Jovialis and Angela do a good job with that in these Italian related genetics forums), don't you think the migrant issue is a separate issue for most people and should be discussed in the political forum. However, I do recognize there is a segment where the migrant issue and Asia minor ancestry from the Arabia, Levant or Iran Neolithic, etc are interrelated.

    I don't want to speak for the OP for this thread (ihype02) or anyone else but at least based on what the OP wrote, the thread seems to me was about Genetics per se independent of modern Political issues in the EU due to migrants and illegal immigration. There are people, me included, who agree with the anti-illegal immigration policies of political parties in my case, the USA, and agree with politicians in Europe who believe the same thing. That does not mean I (they) all hate people from different parts of the world than where one's ancestors happen to be from or are against any and all immigrants. I am the grandson/great grandson of immigrants, but I will say clearly "legal immigrants" who came to the USA through "legal ports of entry" with documentation as to who they are and where they were from. My particular case as with all Italian immigrants during the period 1885 to 1920 as well as Polish, Greeks and SE Europeans and Eastern European Jews during that period were "legal immigrants".

    So I am not going to speak for Yetos either but for some people there are 2 different things at play here. One is totally related to using DNA to explain the genetics of modern Greeks and modern Italians are while not static (nothing is 100% static), are in significant continuity with the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations. The findings of that fact are now robust to several different studies. That to the chagrin of the anthrogenica type crowd goes against everything they have been saying before we had DNA. The other issue about migrants and immigration, legal vs. illegal, etc is purely a political and economic issue and relates to ensuring culture stability in host countries. I see those as 2 totally different issues, as I think Most people do. If there are antrogenica types that conflate the two together, well that is a different issue, at least to me.

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    i agree with you that the issue about illegal or legal immigrants is not part of this discussion. i was talking about eurocentric folks at anthrogenica not about simple opponents of illegal immigrants. those are indeed 2 different things. i don't see why you and yetos think it was the same.

    do you think they would look for recent near eastern ancestry in sicilians just because they don't like illegal migrants? makes no sense, right? i think they just can't admit to themselves that european ancestry is in large parts related to near east and that phenotypic traits that are overlapping between those two regions can be there because of shared ancestry and not just because of recent mixture.likewise a near easterner with european traits must have recent european ancestry or for example ancestry from yamnas. it was the same with darker looking northern europeans. they must have had recent southern European ancestry, romans maybe, it couldn't be because of shared ancestry in the whole population. that one changed, now they need to somehow exclude near east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i agree with you that the issue about illegal or legal immigrants is not part of this discussion. i was talking about eurocentric folks at anthrogenica not about simple opponents of illegal immigrants. those are indeed 2 different things. i don't see why you and yetos think it was different?
    why do you think they look for near eastern ancestry in sicilians? i think they just can't admit to themselves that european ancestry is in large parts related to near east and that phenotypic traits that are overlapping between those two regions can be there because of shared ancestry and not just because of recent mixture. it was the same with darker looking northern europeans. they must have had recent southern European ancestry it couldn't be because of shared ancestry in the whole population. that one changed, now they need to somehow exclude near east.
    Ok, well my position on antrogenica is well documented in my earlier post. The reason for aversion to Near East is I guess because of the "Stepper" fetish some in that circle have. They all want to believe that they are 100% Steppe and it was only I guess made up of Eastern European Hunter Gather and Ancient North Eurasian type ancestry, etc. Any thing from the Asia Minor Southern Caucus region, Northern Levant or Iran Neolithic type ancestry just doesn't fit their narrative. For the record, I have no need to be affirmed by the "Stepper's", I actually could care less. My issue is that they do not get to define what is European. Europe is comprised of Northern Europeans, NW Europeans (English, Angles, Scotts, Welsh, Irish, etc) and I guess Northern France, SW Europe (Iberia, Southern France) Southern Europe (Italy and Balkans), Central Europe, Eastern Europe, etc. I am very comfortable in my Southern European space, most countries North of the Alps I have no desire to visit, if you want me to totally honest.

    I mean does the fact that George Harrison and Paul McCartney have darker hair and brown eyes make them less English?, I think Lennon had brown eyes, hair reddish brown, only Ringo had lighter eyes, sort of Hazel, but hair was darker rather than lighter.

    But like I said I respectfully think the immigration issues are tangential to the thread

    Cheers, Respectively, PT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What Italian, or at least what Italian knowing anything about Italian archaeology and history would see Sicilians, or Southern Italians, for that matter, as nothing more than Italian speaking Greeks?
    Well I never mentioned it's Italians who say so and I said nearly nothing more than Italian-speaking Greeks which was hyperbolic on my part but the exact claim that is that the vast majority of the ancestry of Siclians and Southern Italians comes from Magna Greacians.

    IMO, the ancient Greek ancestry in Italy probably peaks in Calabria given that most cities survived the wars and whole coast was controlled by them compared to around 2/3 in Sicily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    From what I have heard is that before the Greek colonization ancient Sicilians were much more Western shifted. My hypothesis was that Sicily is a diverse region with many different (ancient) populations (i.e natives, other Italians, Greeks, Phoenicans) but the Greek component was the greatest but not the absolute majority.
    While some members in Anthrogenica tend to propose that the vast majority of their ancestry comes from the Hellenes that may be true but I am not convinced so far.
    So what's your opinion about this?
    I've also wondered what was Greece like before the Neolithic Expansion? Where's the data on this. Was no one living in what is now called Greece prior to the arrival of ENF?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    it's very easy, it is not hatred of refugees its hatred of near east in general. those people, not just at anthrogenica but rather all "eurocentrics", don't want to believe the deep genetic connection that europeans have with modern near eastern people. so to seperate what can't be seperated they have to cut their own flesh and distort population genetics.
    even if there were hordes of phoenicians in sicily nothing really new would have been added. they were all distant cousins as you said so well. and all further developed than most of europe. same with carthaginians.
    what connection has this
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    it's very easy, it is not hatred of refugees
    with this
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    its hatred of near east in general.
    in fact some European nations are very proud for having ANE or simmilar ancestry to their genetic structure

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I've also wondered what was Greece like before the Neolithic Expansion? Where's the data on this. Was no one living in what is now called Greece prior to the arrival of ENF?
    mataworf: I think what you are asking is a fair "research question" that hopefully the legitimate scholars like Krause, Lazaridis, Reich, Mathieseon, etc to adress. I don't know if there are any Mesolithic Ancient Greek samples out there. Eurogenes K13 ancient has 18 Mesolithic European samples, non from Greece (a few from Italy) and Croatia. Dodecad 12b Ancient has 12 but again none from Ancient Greece. MDLP same thing, no ancient Greek Mesolithic samples. Maybe the moderators and advisors here know of some Mesolithic Greek samples that are being studied but the papers haven't been released yet for review.

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    We have no Dna from the Mesolithic period from Greece. We also do not have any or very little DNA from classical Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    We have no Dna from the Mesolithic period from Greece. We also do not have any or very little DNA from classical Greece.
    Those are 2 periods with significant differences in time periods. Classical era, we are only talking about 200 or so years, 6th century to 4th century BC, etc. However, we do have samples Pre Classical Greece (Lazaradis et al 2017) analyzing Minoans and Mycenaeans and Post Classical Greece (Stamatoyannopoulouos et al 2017) analyzing the Medieval Peloponneseans. I think the basic conclusion is that Modern Greeks are in genetic continuity with both the Minoans and Mycenaeans and the Medieval Greeks were not replaced by other populations and thus are also in continuity with Greeks from earlier years, although the medieval Greeks are closer to modern Sicilians and mainland Italians (maybe tied to the Roman empire moving East?).

    So I guess do you think that the Classical Greeks will show a genetic discontinuity with pre-Classical era and post-Classical era Greeks? My priors on it are probably not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Those are 2 periods with significant differences in time periods. Classical era, we are only talking about 200 or so years, 6th century to 4th century BC, etc. However, we do have samples Pre Classical Greece (Lazaradis et al 2017) analyzing Minoans and Mycenaeans and Post Classical Greece (Stamatoyannopoulouos et al 2017) analyzing the Medieval Peloponneseans. I think the basic conclusion is that Modern Greeks are in genetic continuity with both the Minoans and Mycenaeans and the Medieval Greeks were not replaced by other populations and thus are also in continuity with Greeks from earlier years, although the medieval Greeks are closer to modern Sicilians and mainland Italians (maybe tied to the Roman empire moving East?).

    So I guess do you think that the Classical Greeks will show a genetic discontinuity with pre-Classical era and post-Classical era Greeks? My priors on it are probably not.
    I would like DNA from 1200-200 BC to include the collapse of civilization around the 12th century BC to find out what happened to those great civilizations. Was it a pandemic? The sea people? Something else? I would like DNA from the great age of colonization in the 800's and 700BCs. I would like to see if there are differences between the Greek tribes. I would like to see if we could trace each tribe's migration patterns. I would like to see if there is any genetic effect of the Celtic tribes in the Balkan area and particularly in Greece. I would like to see if there are any genetic differences or similarities between all the different Thracian and Illyrian Tribes. I would like to know what happened to all the different people that the Roman emperors, the Byzantine Emperors and the Turkish Sultans moved around through the centuries for whatever reason.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 20-05-20 at 14:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i agree with you that the issue about illegal or legal immigrants is not part of this discussion. i was talking about eurocentric folks at anthrogenica not about simple opponents of illegal immigrants. those are indeed 2 different things. i don't see why you and yetos think it was the same.

    do you think they would look for recent near eastern ancestry in sicilians just because they don't like illegal migrants? makes no sense, right? i think they just can't admit to themselves that european ancestry is in large parts related to near east and that phenotypic traits that are overlapping between those two regions can be there because of shared ancestry and not just because of recent mixture.likewise a near easterner with european traits must have recent european ancestry or for example ancestry from yamnas. it was the same with darker looking northern europeans. they must have had recent southern European ancestry, romans maybe, it couldn't be because of shared ancestry in the whole population. that one changed, now they need to somehow exclude near east.
    I largely agree with you.

    @BigSnake,
    Me too.

    As for Classical Greeks, my guess would be they're not that different from Mycenaeans, but perhaps with some more "northern" ancestry. I think modern mainland Greeks, except for certain parts of the Peloponnese, have additional "northern" ancestry which arrived after the fall of Rome, in the early Medieval period. That's pure speculation, of course, and I'm not insistent on that interpretation. Time will tell.


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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I've also wondered what was Greece like before the Neolithic Expansion? Where's the data on this. Was no one living in what is now called Greece prior to the arrival of ENF?
    To the best of my recollection there were no large hunter/fisher settlements in Greece. The largest was all the way up by the Iron Gates, where the fishing was extremely good as was the foraging.

    There are papers from a few years ago which showed some amount of admixture with the farmers, but I believe it was Mathiesen who said the resulting group didn't have a large genetic impact further into Europe.

    It's always been my impression that a lot of the WHG in the mainland Greeks came with migrations later on from more northern areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I would like DNA from 1200-200 BC to include the collapse of civilization around the 12th century BC to find out what happened to those great civilization. Was it a pandemic? The sea people? Something else? I would like DNA from the great age of colonization in the 800's and 700BCs. I would like to see if there are differences between the Greek tribes. I would like to see if we could trace each tribe's migration patterns. I would like to see if there is any genetic effect of the Celtic tribes in the Balkan area and particularly in Greece. I would like to see if there are any genetic differences or similarities between all the different Thracian and Illyrian Tribes. I would like to know what happened to all the different people that the Roman emperors, the Byzantine Emperors and the Turkish Sultans moved around through the centuries for whatever reason.
    Ok, nice theoretical background laid out there. Like I said, a "legitimate research question" that I hope the top notch scholars will address.

    Cheers, PT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To the best of my recollection there were no large hunter/fisher settlements in Greece. The largest was all the way up by the Iron Gates, where the fishing was extremely good as was the foraging.

    There are papers from a few years ago which showed some amount of admixture with the farmers, but I believe it was Mathiesen who said the resulting group didn't have a large genetic impact further into Europe.

    It's always been my impression that a lot of the WHG in the mainland Greeks came with migrations later on from more northern areas.
    in Sicily there was the Grotta dell'Uzzo

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotta_dell%27Uzzo

    don't know whether they were WHG, they might have come from Anatolia as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Well I never mentioned it's Italians who say so and I said nearly nothing more than Italian-speaking Greeks which was hyperbolic on my part but the exact claim that is that the vast majority of the ancestry of Siclians and Southern Italians comes from Magna Greacians.

    IMO, the ancient Greek ancestry in Italy probably peaks in Calabria given that most cities survived the wars and whole coast was controlled by them compared to around 2/3 in Sicily.
    around the 2010's or even a bit before there has been a paper about diverse zones of autosomes high density of certain type and their respective inputs on other zones (in today pops): even if arbitrary named, this paper showed what it called a genetic "gressian" node and its input elsewhere: Southern Italy was exactly in the same coloured highly "greek" autosome zone as Greece, and the density of this input diminished gradually as you went further North in Italy. No big surprise. Things have not changed too much, except the definition of this node, which today is burst into several more ancient genetic pops. But it confirms the today similarities even if this similarity could have been the result of more complicated events than an unique pure Greek (or helladic pre-Greek) colonisation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Thanks and I agree with what you said. Very well stated. I will go even further, I think there has always been the notion by many a different group of peoples to want the ancient Greeks and Romans to look like Nordics and have their genetics and sound like BBC Commentators. Sort of like some of the fundamentalist types I grew up around with that thought Saint Peter and Saint Paul "used the King James Bible" Totally different subject but the mentality was always the same.

    But you as I do get closest ancient populations Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome and you as I do get closest modern population Italian and Greek. So if that does not suggest genetic continuity overall with some regional variations in admixture here and there, I don't know what does.

    The stereotypes of 'nordic' blonds left aside, I think the first Italic pre-Roman and Roman people who got southwards from Northern Italy was more central-Europe-like (and bronze Iberian-like too) genetically than later Romans, and surely than Greeks of ancient time, Mycenians or later. Surely not pure BB's-like and with a good chunk of EEF and WHG (already mixed) previous people on their way South.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I would like DNA from 1200-200 BC to include the collapse of civilization around the 12th century BC to find out what happened to those great civilization. Was it a pandemic? The sea people? Something else? I would like DNA from the great age of colonization in the 800's and 700BCs. I would like to see if there are differences between the Greek tribes. I would like to see if we could trace each tribe's migration patterns. I would like to see if there is any genetic effect of the Celtic tribes in the Balkan area and particularly in Greece. I would like to see if there are any genetic differences or similarities between all the different Thracian and Illyrian Tribes. I would like to know what happened to all the different people that the Roman emperors, the Byzantine Emperors and the Turkish Sultans moved around through the centuries for whatever reason.
    the celtic admixture in Greece and generally S Balkans manytimes is also considered as Slavic, or Roman,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the celtic admixture in Greece and generally S Balkans manytimes is also considered as Slavic, or Roman,
    Just remember that Celtic mercenaries served on all warring sides in the battle of supremacy over Thrace, Macedonia and the rest of Greece for about 100 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Just remember that Celtic mercenaries served on all warring sides in the battle of supremacy over Thrace, Macedonia and the rest of Greece for about 100 years.
    what 100 years, 2 milleniums,

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    in Sicily there was the Grotta dell'Uzzo
    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotta_dell%27Uzzo
    don't know whether they were WHG, they might have come from Anatolia as well
    Grotta dell "Uzzo is in the Natural park in Trapani near San Vito Lopo, which is on the Northern Coastal extremes of Trapani. The ancient sample from Favignana which dates around the same time as the Grotta dell 'Uzzo find is WHG so likely the same, unless EEF type ancestry got to Sicily that early? Maybe it did, not saying that absolutely did not but the two papers I referenced in my post #2 clearly indicate that culture in the Egadi Islands was WHG.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    The stereotypes of 'nordic' blonds left aside, I think the first Italic pre-Roman and Roman people who got southwards from Northern Italy was more central-Europe-like (and bronze Iberian-like too) genetically than later Romans, and surely than Greeks of ancient time, Mycenians or later.
    I believe I understand what you mean by "Roman people", and it looks very possible, but as a side note, I'd say that, strictly, it just makes sense talking on "Romans" from after the foundation of Rome, right? They must descend also from the kind of people you referred to, but according to the current data it looks like the founders proper were something else already, different even from any modern pop, since the bulk plotted between modern NW. Italians and (non-N.) Spanish (there were also Southern-shifted samples).



    So, the current (few) samples from Iron Age and Republican period around that area don't seem Central Euro-like, as you certainly know.

    Surely not pure BB's-like and with a good chunk of EEF and WHG (already mixed) previous people on their way South.
    Interestingly, while these Central Euro groups caused increase of Steppe ancestry in areas to the South, IIRC they would have caused increase of EEF ancestry in areas to the North, such UK, in Iron Age.

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