Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

I've also wondered what was Greece like before the Neolithic Expansion? Where's the data on this. Was no one living in what is now called Greece prior to the arrival of ENF?

To the best of my recollection there were no large hunter/fisher settlements in Greece. The largest was all the way up by the Iron Gates, where the fishing was extremely good as was the foraging.

There are papers from a few years ago which showed some amount of admixture with the farmers, but I believe it was Mathiesen who said the resulting group didn't have a large genetic impact further into Europe.

It's always been my impression that a lot of the WHG in the mainland Greeks came with migrations later on from more northern areas.
 
I would like DNA from 1200-200 BC to include the collapse of civilization around the 12th century BC to find out what happened to those great civilization. Was it a pandemic? The sea people? Something else? I would like DNA from the great age of colonization in the 800's and 700BCs. I would like to see if there are differences between the Greek tribes. I would like to see if we could trace each tribe's migration patterns. I would like to see if there is any genetic effect of the Celtic tribes in the Balkan area and particularly in Greece. I would like to see if there are any genetic differences or similarities between all the different Thracian and Illyrian Tribes. I would like to know what happened to all the different people that the Roman emperors, the Byzantine Emperors and the Turkish Sultans moved around through the centuries for whatever reason.

Ok, nice theoretical background laid out there. Like I said, a "legitimate research question" that I hope the top notch scholars will address.

Cheers, PT
 
To the best of my recollection there were no large hunter/fisher settlements in Greece. The largest was all the way up by the Iron Gates, where the fishing was extremely good as was the foraging.

There are papers from a few years ago which showed some amount of admixture with the farmers, but I believe it was Mathiesen who said the resulting group didn't have a large genetic impact further into Europe.

It's always been my impression that a lot of the WHG in the mainland Greeks came with migrations later on from more northern areas.

in Sicily there was the Grotta dell'Uzzo

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotta_dell'Uzzo

don't know whether they were WHG, they might have come from Anatolia as well
 
Well I never mentioned it's Italians who say so and I said nearly nothing more than Italian-speaking Greeks which was hyperbolic on my part but the exact claim that is that the vast majority of the ancestry of Siclians and Southern Italians comes from Magna Greacians.

IMO, the ancient Greek ancestry in Italy probably peaks in Calabria given that most cities survived the wars and whole coast was controlled by them compared to around 2/3 in Sicily.

around the 2010's or even a bit before there has been a paper about diverse zones of autosomes high density of certain type and their respective inputs on other zones (in today pops): even if arbitrary named, this paper showed what it called a genetic "gressian" node and its input elsewhere: Southern Italy was exactly in the same coloured highly "greek" autosome zone as Greece, and the density of this input diminished gradually as you went further North in Italy. No big surprise. Things have not changed too much, except the definition of this node, which today is burst into several more ancient genetic pops. But it confirms the today similarities even if this similarity could have been the result of more complicated events than an unique pure Greek (or helladic pre-Greek) colonisation.
 
Thanks and I agree with what you said. Very well stated. I will go even further, I think there has always been the notion by many a different group of peoples to want the ancient Greeks and Romans to look like Nordics and have their genetics and sound like BBC Commentators. Sort of like some of the fundamentalist types I grew up around with that thought Saint Peter and Saint Paul "used the King James Bible" Totally different subject but the mentality was always the same.

But you as I do get closest ancient populations Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome and you as I do get closest modern population Italian and Greek. So if that does not suggest genetic continuity overall with some regional variations in admixture here and there, I don't know what does.


The stereotypes of 'nordic' blonds left aside, I think the first Italic pre-Roman and Roman people who got southwards from Northern Italy was more central-Europe-like (and bronze Iberian-like too) genetically than later Romans, and surely than Greeks of ancient time, Mycenians or later. Surely not pure BB's-like and with a good chunk of EEF and WHG (already mixed) previous people on their way South.
 
I would like DNA from 1200-200 BC to include the collapse of civilization around the 12th century BC to find out what happened to those great civilization. Was it a pandemic? The sea people? Something else? I would like DNA from the great age of colonization in the 800's and 700BCs. I would like to see if there are differences between the Greek tribes. I would like to see if we could trace each tribe's migration patterns. I would like to see if there is any genetic effect of the Celtic tribes in the Balkan area and particularly in Greece. I would like to see if there are any genetic differences or similarities between all the different Thracian and Illyrian Tribes. I would like to know what happened to all the different people that the Roman emperors, the Byzantine Emperors and the Turkish Sultans moved around through the centuries for whatever reason.

the celtic admixture in Greece and generally S Balkans manytimes is also considered as Slavic, or Roman,
 
the celtic admixture in Greece and generally S Balkans manytimes is also considered as Slavic, or Roman,

Just remember that Celtic mercenaries served on all warring sides in the battle of supremacy over Thrace, Macedonia and the rest of Greece for about 100 years.
 
Just remember that Celtic mercenaries served on all warring sides in the battle of supremacy over Thrace, Macedonia and the rest of Greece for about 100 years.

what 100 years, 2 milleniums,
 
in Sicily there was the Grotta dell'Uzzo
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotta_dell'Uzzo
don't know whether they were WHG, they might have come from Anatolia as well

Grotta dell "Uzzo is in the Natural park in Trapani near San Vito Lopo, which is on the Northern Coastal extremes of Trapani. The ancient sample from Favignana which dates around the same time as the Grotta dell 'Uzzo find is WHG so likely the same, unless EEF type ancestry got to Sicily that early? Maybe it did, not saying that absolutely did not but the two papers I referenced in my post #2 clearly indicate that culture in the Egadi Islands was WHG.
 
The stereotypes of 'nordic' blonds left aside, I think the first Italic pre-Roman and Roman people who got southwards from Northern Italy was more central-Europe-like (and bronze Iberian-like too) genetically than later Romans, and surely than Greeks of ancient time, Mycenians or later.
I believe I understand what you mean by "Roman people", and it looks very possible, but as a side note, I'd say that, strictly, it just makes sense talking on "Romans" from after the foundation of Rome, right? They must descend also from the kind of people you referred to, but according to the current data it looks like the founders proper were something else already, different even from any modern pop, since the bulk plotted between modern NW. Italians and (non-N.) Spanish (there were also Southern-shifted samples).

4XSywLa.jpg


So, the current (few) samples from Iron Age and Republican period around that area don't seem Central Euro-like, as you certainly know.

Surely not pure BB's-like and with a good chunk of EEF and WHG (already mixed) previous people on their way South.
Interestingly, while these Central Euro groups caused increase of Steppe ancestry in areas to the South, IIRC they would have caused increase of EEF ancestry in areas to the North, such UK, in Iron Age.
 
We have Sicilian samples pre-Greek colonization. We've discussed them numerous times on other threads. What we need now are samples from Sicily right at the period of Greek colonization.

Of course, we'll have to keep in mind that as with all these studies, the graves of the newly arriving elite will be the ones that survive the most, with attendant resurgence of "locals" later, but it should give us a much better idea.

It may be the new Greek arrivals weren't that different from the locals anyway, given that some ancestry from the East was coming in during the Bronze Age, but even if they were, I am skeptical there was a "wipe out" of the locals. Even in the massively de-populated areas of Central Europe, and with a plague rampant, the steppe people are only 50% of the ancestry of the Bell Beakers. In Italy we can tell from the Parma Beakers that one barely had any steppe ancestry, and one had only a bit. Only in England would I apply that word, and also perhaps in the far northeast and north of Europe with Corded Ware, but that's because those places were inhospitable for the EEF neolithic package even as modified, so population levels were very low there. Plus, we can see that EEF like ancestry rebounded, so were they really annihilated even in those areas, or just absent from the archaeological record because they weren't given decent burials?

I don't understand the emphasis on the WHG in the larger scheme of things. They're a small part of any European's ancestry except to the far northeast and east, not west, unless they mean the Iberians have a bit more WHG than Italians and Greeks. So what? I don't see the significance.

The preoccupations of the people at anthrogenica are a reflection of their world view. They're welcome to them. I'm only interested in debating these things with people who have some objectivity. When you lack it you can make huge errors, i.e. as they all made there with the Etruscans.

From my perspective, the ancestry that arrived from the east either directly or through the Greeks is just mainly the same old, same old. The new arrivals carried Anatolia Neolithic, which had been in Europe for 7,000 years already. It carried more Iran Neo/CHG, but some of that was part of the genesis of the Anatolia Neolithic in the first place, and more had been dribbling in since the Bronze Age. It was just the arrival of some long separated distant cousins. It's not like the Han Chinese suddenly migrated in, for heaven's sake.

Some people want to obfuscate this fact and label these newcomers as "alien", somehow, not people very similar to whose who make up 40-50% of their own ancestry, but now alien "Middle Easterners" who would pollute their blood. Is it the additional Iran Neo which is so objectionable? Yet that makes no sense to me because it was extremely similar to the ancestry which formed 40-50% of the ancestry of the steppe people whom they so want to share ancestry with...

Maybe all the fuss is because of some minor amount of "Levant" Bronze Age ancestry which slipped in. Is antisemitism really still so virulent in some of these people, that and hatred of Middle Eastern refugees, that they'll distort history and population genetics to find it only in people in Europe they can label the "other". Just think what would happen if these kinds of people came into power again, and what a tool genetic testing would be for them.

I find it bizarre but not really surprising.

There was population mixing throughout human history: Neanderthals and Denisovans with each other and with modern humans (and who knows how many other hominids), Levant Neolithic with Anatolia Neolithic, both with Iran Neolithic, Anatolia Neolithic with WHG, EHG with Iran Neo/CHG, steppe people with Middle Neolithic people, etc. all mixtures of far more different people from one another than any incoming Aegean like people with local inhabitants of the Italic peninsula and Sicily. That 's more akin to somebody saying the Danes were a brand new population from the Angles and Saxons, or even the Saxons from the Britons. These are just shades of difference.



Far more important to me than these minor genetic differences are what incoming people brought with them. Did they bring new crops, new innovation, architecture, art, literacy, or rape, rapine, the mass destruction of infrastructure, death and disease?
This is a recent one, and it looks related.

Biodeterminism and pseudo-objectivity as obstacles for the emerging field of archaeogenetics

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...haeogenetics/38193E63328ECEA338D3C4F5B84AC593
 
I believe I understand what you mean by "Roman people", and it looks very possible, but as a side note, I'd say that, strictly, it just makes sense talking on "Romans" from after the foundation of Rome, right? They must descend also from the kind of people you referred to, but according to the current data it looks like the founders proper were something else already, different even from any modern pop, since the bulk plotted between modern NW. Italians and (non-N.) Spanish (there were also Southern-shifted samples).
4XSywLa.jpg

So, the current (few) samples from Iron Age and Republican period around that area don't seem Central Euro-like, as you certainly know.
Interestingly, while these Central Euro groups caused increase of Steppe ancestry in areas to the South, IIRC they would have caused increase of EEF ancestry in areas to the North, such UK, in Iron Age.

I very much agree. The "Romans" of the Roman Republic, who then conquered Italy were already Southern European like.

I wonder if the majority of the ancestry entering Italy from the northeast may have been a different stream from the Bell Beakers who went to, say, England.

Also, in terms of southeastern ancestry. It was already showing up in Rome in 800 BC.
 
It may be related, but I completely disagree with him.
Totally Angela! People in these forums and elsewhere get caught up in the purity wars, us vs them, invent all kinds of weird theories to make their ancestors more heroic than what they were. The reality is that we are all a mixture of different people at different eras. Genetics does not point out how different we all are but how similar we are. After all it is a minuscule part of our genome that is differentiates us. Genetics and archaeology can work together to tell us all about the people that populated a place in time.
 
This is a recent one, and it looks related.
Biodeterminism and pseudo-objectivity as obstacles for the emerging field of archaeogenetics
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...haeogenetics/38193E63328ECEA338D3C4F5B84AC593

I prefer not to go into the merits of the question presented in the text of the link. I just made a conversion to “editable text”, for those who can be interested in copying it.

Cheers ;)

Michael Blakey presents a principled attack on the resurgence of pseudoscientific racism , which , as he argues , is seeping into the work of the most highly rated , best - regarded authorities of the international scientific community . Blakey attacks , powerfully , the old and clearly debunked idea of races as a biological thing , and points to the structural socio - economic background for its repeated zombie - like return . The paper will probably spark controversy , because it situates this observation in a broad sociopolitical context of overt and hidden racism and the ideological justification of old and current social inequality and injustice . It fiercely criticizes attempts by leading geneticists , most notably David Reich , to reconsider race science as an attempt to roll back the post - war scientific consensus that human races are socially constructed entities , by falsely claiming to pursue an unideological , objective look at what would be ' biological facts ” . Blakey iden tifies this as part of the larger contradictory , yet interconnected , trends of , on the one hand , claim ing to ignore the existence of the social category of race and denying the effects of racism , while , on the other hand , trying to naturalize social inequalities by referring to different , supposedly genet ically determined qualities of individuals ' , or ' groups ' , which are thinly veiled euphemisms for race . Blakey contextualizes this historically , showing how the invention of modern racism is tightly connected to the emergence of colonialism and capitalism , serving as ideological justifica tion for both systems of exploitation . In a similar manner , the current attempt to explain social differences in educational or economic success and in sociocultural patterns as being grounded in supposed biological differences is a political endeavour , whether or not it is intended by its protagonists , which plays into the hands of those political forces that want to justify and further intensify current levels of inequality ( both nationally and globally ) . This is not a new argument , and Blakey himself has published on these issues before , but in the light of the new importance of genetics in many fields of research , including archaeology , what he has to say is clearly important . I do not want to engage here in detail with all of Blakey's arguments . Instead , given the theme of this journal and my role as a prehistoric archaeologist , I would like to consider Blakey's paper in the wider context of interdisciplinarity between geneticists and archaeologists , a context for which Blakey's more directed attack on the resurgence of pseudoscientific racism is highly relevant . This relevance is , I believe , first of all to be found in Blakey's fundamental critique of biodeterminism as an ideological mindset with severe political connotations , and second in the notion of scientific objectivity in general . Both issues speak to central points of conflict , or misunderstandings , between geneticists and archaeologists in the newly emerging field of archaeogenetics .

We archaeologists have found ourselves facing a veritable rollback of seemingly long - overcome notions of static cultures and a biologization of social identities , something that is clearly con nected to the idea of races ( Müller 2013 ; Heyd 2017 ; Furholt 2018 ; Frieman and Hofmann 2019 ) . And this rollback is connected to the massive impact of ancient - DNA studies on archae ology . The premise that prehistoric communities were closed , internally homogeneous social entities with a shared uniform culture and a shared genetic ancestry , collectively migrating across the Eurasian continent , was invented by fascist ideologues such as Gustaf Kossinna in order to further right - wing , nationalist and racist political goals and to justify territorial claims in”
 
I think what I call, racialist-lysenkoism is worse than what this Michael Blakey is purporting. There are dark parts of the internet where people reject human population genetics, as political propaganda. While promoting espousing racial purity, based on benighted ideas of the past. Usually, they are anti-intellectual nordicist, or afrocentric loons.
 
I think what I call, racialist-lysenkoism is worse than what this Michael Blakey is purporting. There are dark parts of the internet where people reject human population genetics, as political propaganda. While promoting espousing racial purity, based on benighted ideas of the past. Usually, they are anti-intellectual nordicist, or afrocentric loons.

Well, I didn't know who he was and had to look him up. If ever a face matched up with evil ideology, it was his.

Incredible that he is enjoying a resurgence in Russia.
 
I prefer not to go into the merits of the question presented in the text of the link. I just made a conversion to “editable text”, for those who can be interested in copying it.
Cheers ;)
Michael Blakey presents a principled attack on the resurgence of pseudoscientific racism , which , as he argues , is seeping into the work of the most highly rated , best - regarded authorities of the international scientific community . Blakey attacks , powerfully , the old and clearly debunked idea of races as a biological thing , and points to the structural socio - economic background for its repeated zombie - like return . The paper will probably spark controversy , because it situates this observation in a broad sociopolitical context of overt and hidden racism and the ideological justification of old and current social inequality and injustice . It fiercely criticizes attempts by leading geneticists , most notably David Reich , to reconsider race science as an attempt to roll back the post - war scientific consensus that human races are socially constructed entities , by falsely claiming to pursue an unideological , objective look at what would be ' biological facts ” . Blakey iden tifies this as part of the larger contradictory , yet interconnected , trends of , on the one hand , claim ing to ignore the existence of the social category of race and denying the effects of racism , while , on the other hand , trying to naturalize social inequalities by referring to different , supposedly genet ically determined qualities of individuals ' , or ' groups ' , which are thinly veiled euphemisms for race . Blakey contextualizes this historically , showing how the invention of modern racism is tightly connected to the emergence of colonialism and capitalism , serving as ideological justifica tion for both systems of exploitation . In a similar manner , the current attempt to explain social differences in educational or economic success and in sociocultural patterns as being grounded in supposed biological differences is a political endeavour , whether or not it is intended by its protagonists , which plays into the hands of those political forces that want to justify and further intensify current levels of inequality ( both nationally and globally ) . This is not a new argument , and Blakey himself has published on these issues before , but in the light of the new importance of genetics in many fields of research , including archaeology , what he has to say is clearly important . I do not want to engage here in detail with all of Blakey's arguments . Instead , given the theme of this journal and my role as a prehistoric archaeologist , I would like to consider Blakey's paper in the wider context of interdisciplinarity between geneticists and archaeologists , a context for which Blakey's more directed attack on the resurgence of pseudoscientific racism is highly relevant . This relevance is , I believe , first of all to be found in Blakey's fundamental critique of biodeterminism as an ideological mindset with severe political connotations , and second in the notion of scientific objectivity in general . Both issues speak to central points of conflict , or misunderstandings , between geneticists and archaeologists in the newly emerging field of archaeogenetics .

We archaeologists have found ourselves facing a veritable rollback of seemingly long - overcome notions of static cultures and a biologization of social identities , something that is clearly con nected to the idea of races ( Müller 2013 ; Heyd 2017 ; Furholt 2018 ; Frieman and Hofmann 2019 ) . And this rollback is connected to the massive impact of ancient - DNA studies on archae ology . The premise that prehistoric communities were closed , internally homogeneous social entities with a shared uniform culture and a shared genetic ancestry , collectively migrating across the Eurasian continent , was invented by fascist ideologues such as Gustaf Kossinna in order to further right - wing , nationalist and racist political goals and to justify territorial claims in”
Thanks, Duarte. I could read it now. It was shared elsewhere, and I "forwarded" after reading just a little part of it, "hurried". Guilty! I thought they criticized the way genetics is being used in certain "environments", and wouldn't have imagined it reached Reich (who didn't attempt what they say), the very field of populational genetics and even capitalism. Nah. You know what I think about it. Reading it all, particularly I found it, say, "pamphleteer". Now I understand Angela.
It may be a good idea reading texts before sharing them. Lol
Sorry all. Probably better to return to the topic.
 
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It may be related, but I completely disagree with him.

This paper seems to me carrying a good charge of prejudice or biased interpretations, what is funny when speaking of "pseudo-objectivity". Every attempt to study demic moves along history is only a tentative to rehabilitate old racism?
 
This paper seems to me carrying a good charge of prejudice or biased interpretations, what is funny when speaking of "pseudo-objectivity". Every attempt to study demic moves along history is only a tentative to rehabilitate old racism?
Perfect! I agree!
 

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