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Thread: Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Cappodician mark ?....what is that?

    Cappodicia is in eastern Asia Minor ( anatolia ), they are a mix of proto-cimmerian steppe people with IIRC the hatti people

    the black sea was smaller in size, and drinkable for humans
    Both Yetos and you are misspelling Cappadocia .

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    Duplicate, sorry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Well, a guy who was very obsessed with Sicily and their Levantine connections was banned. I wonder why???? On Anthrogenica it seems, that people right and left are getting banned including one moderator and people who wrote tons of comments for years there. It appears that debating there is like walking on eggshells. What's the point of a forum about genetics when people can't express what they think and debate studies without being so strongly under moderation? A compliment to the moderators from Eupedia who show lots of patience by allowing debates and discourse without heavy moderation and PC.
    To me debunking, refuting nonsense, or misconceptions and educating are better than just to ban people with fringe and crazy theories. Of course this only applies to people that are not about trolling for the sake of trolling. Freedom of speech is a great achievement.
    Real expert: A guy was obsessed with Sicily and their Levantine connection was banned. Well that statement in and off itself is BS that this guy made. Again, how the hell does Sicily cluster with other Southern Italian regions and modern Greeks, etc. Why is East Med treated differently for Sicily than other Southern European countries or any Country. How is that Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2 document Anatolian Neolithic ancestry ranging from 56% in SItaly1 to 72% in NItaly4. I don't have the supplements in front of me but SItaly1 I think were samples from Basilicata and maybe another Southern Region, one of the SItaly samples was a macro sample with all regions South of Rome included but it is clear Sicily1 and Sicily2 are "Sicily". So is it not accurate to say 56% (SItaly1) <= Sicily (Sicily1 and Sicily2) <= 72% (NItaly4) with respect to Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. What about the CHG and Iran Neolithic ancestry documented in that Study, as well as Antonio et al 2019. Is there some Levant type ancestry in Sicily from ancient the Levant, yes. Northern Levant Lebanon/Syria borders Anatolia. Still for this obsessed guy to make such claims he is either an ignorant as& or a troll, or both as those are many times observational equivalents.

    The problem that I have seen is that many people go to these calculators and just lump all East-Med or Near East admixture and assume it is 100% the same under the term "MENA" and go on Youtube forums or blogs and spout BS. In 2020, it is clear that the CHG, Iran Neolithic, Levant-Neolithic, Anatolian Neolithic (EEF), all came from some earlier West-Eurasian cluster (45-50K years ago), as did other groups (WHG, EHG), and some have this hypothesized Basal Eurasian admixture as well, but by Neolithic period, all these groups were distinct populations and should be modeled as such. Some of these calculators seem to not do that to well.

    But when you say Debate, expressing opinions under the guise of freedom of speech that are not substantiated by legitimate research is not a debate, that is Bull Crap. Now, I am not one for banning anyone either but that is not my say. However, calling someone's BS is an entirely different manner.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 24-05-20 at 07:39.

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    The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean





    Source:
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Supplement.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean





    Source:
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Supplement.pdf
    Is there any particular point you're trying to illustrate, Duarte? There's a mountain of information presented there. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is there any particular point you're trying to illustrate, Duarte? There's a mountain of information presented there. :)
    No, Angela. I posted it as an illustration. If it is not useful, I delete it ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    No, Angela. I posted it as an illustration. If it is not useful, I delete it ;)
    It's indeed useful; I appreciate you doing it. :)

    It's just, as I said, there's a mountain of information there and I thought maybe you wanted to focus our attention on particular aspects to better understand the issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's indeed useful; I appreciate you doing it. :)

    It's just, as I said, there's a mountain of information there and I thought maybe you wanted to focus our attention on particular aspects to better understand the issues.
    Thank you Angela.
    As you said, there are a lot of information. I think some aspects of the bars graphs analyzed the timeline are very intersting. The comparative analyze can broken some taboos. As I am not an expert, I prefer abdicate this work to not say nonsense. Thank once again ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Well, a guy who was very obsessed with Sicily and their Levantine connections was banned. I wonder why???? On Anthrogenica it seems, that people right and left are getting banned including one moderator and people who wrote tons of comments for years there. It appears that debating there is like walking on eggshells. What's the point of a forum about genetics when people can't express what they think and debate studies without being so strongly under moderation? A compliment to the moderators from Eupedia who show lots of patience by allowing debates and discourse without heavy moderation and PC.
    To me debunking, refuting nonsense, or misconceptions and educating are better than just to ban people with fringe and crazy theories. Of course this only applies to people that are not about trolling for the sake of trolling. Freedom of speech is a great achievement.

    the banning is due to insistence with people trying to say that modern nationalistic borders and the populace in these nations existed from today to ancient times without change.

    I told people many times, there is barely 1% chance that you can find your line prior to medieval times ...........due to the fact of the roman empire moving people about and the later barbarian invasions ..............do not waste your time

    People forget, nationality only began after 1750AD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean





    Source:
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...Supplement.pdf


    thank you ...I never seen this Feb. 2020 paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    No, Angela. I posted it as an illustration. If it is not useful, I delete it ;)
    Good Afternoon Duarte and Angela: I am glad Duarte posted this. My quick take is the Reich team (Lazaradis was on the paper as well) findings (Fernandes et al 2020) on Iran Neolithic dating back prior to 1,500 BC supports and confirms the findings that Raveane et al 2019 documented in Figure 2 (which I have posted below), that is significant Iran Neolithic ancestry in Sicily as well as other regions. Thus, the Raveane et al 2019 study which clearly documents not only Iran Neolithic, but also CHG ancestry in not only Sicily, but other regions, is a paper that "Correctly modeled" ancient source ancestry for Sicily as well as other Italian regions. Antonio et al 2019 documented the same thing in their paper. So if any paper going forward does not have these distinct populations properly modeled and measured when analyzing Italian DNA from various regions it is in my opinion, to put it as nice as possible on Sunday, "poor scholarship."

    Raveane_etal_2019Figures2.jpgRaveane_etal_2019Figures2B.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the banning is due to insistence with people trying to say that modern nationalistic borders and the populace in these nations existed from today to ancient times without change.

    I told people many times, there is barely 1% chance that you can find your line prior to medieval times ...........due to the fact of the roman empire moving people about and the later barbarian invasions ..............do not waste your time

    People forget, nationality only began after 1750AD
    Torzio: I agree with you about trying to trace your direct lineage via Haplogroup analyis. No disagreement there. Also, not disagreement that modern nations today existed going back to Antiquity and beyond without change is also correct. However, I think the research is pretty clear that all the ancient population groups were present in Italy by the 1st Millennium BC, if not earlier, and that documenting a strong and significant genetic affinity and continuity with those ancient Romans, ancient Italians, my case also ancient Greeks and Thracians, does mean something.

    More specifically, to me it refutes the notion I had to listen to growing up in the 1970's when BBC's I Claudius came on and the WASP elite in the USA would have you believe the ancient Romans were "English" and the Nordicist would have you believe they looked like the Marvel Comic Book character "Thor" {and I am a big fan the 70's Marvel and DC comic characters for the record, more Batman in DC and Spidey in Marvel].

    So on the issue of examining ancient DNA prior to Medieval times, I think it is a worthwhile exercise for scholars in the Genetics field and for non-Genetics scholar enthusiast who love History, archaeology and have a strong tie to their ancestral homeland. I will say this, and I have said it here among friends and co-workers where I live, I felt a stronger connection and more at home in Sicily and Rome when I visited last summer than I do in some parts of the USA. That ticked off some people when I said that but it is honestly how I feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the banning is due to insistence with people trying to say that modern nationalistic borders and the populace in these nations existed from today to ancient times without change.

    I told people many times, there is barely 1% chance that you can find your line prior to medieval times ...........due to the fact of the roman empire moving people about and the later barbarian invasions ..............do not waste your time

    People forget, nationality only began after 1750AD
    Not just roman emperors, byzantine emperors and then Ottoman sultans did the same thing due to depopulation or due to local insurrections. For example in the area of Eastern Thrace where my ancestors came from there were Turkish speaking villages (islamized locals or moved there from elsewhere in the Ottoman empire), Greek speaking villages, Bulgarian speaking villages and 1 or 2 Serbian speaking villages. After the exchange of populations in 1922, Turkish speaking villagers and merchants from all over the Balkans were transferred to the same area. It would be interesting to trace all those populations and find out where they came from originally, where they ended up and their genetics. But the people that were originally involved in all those exchanges have and are dying off and people are intermarrying from people from different parts of the country or from different counties (in Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia). It's very hard to find 4 grandparents from the same area anymore. Genetics become complicated when your ancestors have been moved a few times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Torzio: I agree with you about trying to trace your direct lineage via Haplogroup analyis. No disagreement there. Also, not disagreement that modern nations today existed going back to Antiquity and beyond without change is also correct. However, I think the research is pretty clear that all the ancient population groups were present in Italy by the 1st Millennium BC, if not earlier, and that documenting a strong and significant genetic affinity and continuity with those ancient Romans, ancient Italians, my case also ancient Greeks and Thracians, does mean something.

    More specifically, to me it refutes the notion I had to listen to growing up in the 1970's when BBC's I Claudius came on and the WASP elite in the USA would have you believe the ancient Romans were "English" and the Nordicist would have you believe they looked like the Marvel Comic Book character "Thor" {and I am a big fan the 70's Marvel and DC comic characters for the record, more Batman in DC and Spidey in Marvel].

    So on the issue of examining ancient DNA prior to Medieval times, I think it is a worthwhile exercise for scholars in the Genetics field and for non-Genetics scholar enthusiast who love History, archaeology and have a strong tie to their ancestral homeland. I will say this, and I have said it here among friends and co-workers where I live, I felt a stronger connection and more at home in Sicily and Rome when I visited last summer than I do in some parts of the USA. That ticked off some people when I said that but it is honestly how I feel.

    of course it is worthwhile to look at ancients in today's modern national borders, but do not think they came from there ..............ancient traded and set up colonies or outposts since the bronze age, people under Roman rule where moved and displaced to other parts of the empire etc .....there is no clear fact on who is who...........

    you do not even know if you are a norman that settled in Sicily after the norman invasion or a phoenician that settled in sicily .............

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of course it is worthwhile to look at ancients in today's modern national borders, but do not think they came from there ..............ancient traded and set up colonies or outposts since the bronze age, people under Roman rule where moved and displaced to other parts of the empire etc .....there is no clear fact on who is who...........

    you do not even know if you are a norman that settled in Sicily after the norman invasion or a phoenician that settled in sicily .............
    I was about to delete this for utter stupidity, but have decided to leave it as an object lesson.

    OF COURSE HE"S NOT EITHER.

    Didn't you just say no one in Europe is completely descended from any one ancient group?

    A modern Sicilian may or may not have some Phoenician or Norman ancestry, but you're sure as hell not going to find that out by comparing them to MODERN POPULATIONS IN WEST EURASIA.

    The Reich Lab and LAZARIDIS have not in any way, shape or form, given up on using ancient reference samples to analyze people. This is the second time I've corrected you. Do it again, and your post will not see the light of day.

    I am not going to go down the rabbit hole with you as so many did when you couldn't understand the difference between a language and a script.

    And how could you be unaware of that paper when we've been discussing it here since March of 2019????
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ranean+Islands

    I have no idea why anthrogenica is banning people; probably because they are going against the "orthodoxy" there. They banned people who insisted Etruscans didn't necessarily descend from a first millennium BC migration from the Near East too.

    I told you years ago that you can identify as you wish: you're not Italian despite hundreds of years of ancestry in the borders of Italy. You're a Central European, a Swiss or Austrian at least. What a pity for you they don't want the areas from which you come.

    Change your ethnic designation back to Alpine European if you wish. You have my personal permission.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    of course it is worthwhile to look at ancients in today's modern national borders, but do not think they came from there ..............ancient traded and set up colonies or outposts since the bronze age, people under Roman rule where moved and displaced to other parts of the empire etc .....there is no clear fact on who is who...........

    you do not even know if you are a norman that settled in Sicily after the norman invasion or a phoenician that settled in sicily .............
    It is not important that I know if I am a Norman or not or if I am am a Phoenician or not. For the record, I don't think I am strongly genetically connected to either based on every running genetic distances on the ancient populations that are in Dodecad 12b, MDLP ancients and Eurogenes K13 ancients along with MTA. And not that it would be a bad thing if I was strongly connected to either, but the matter of the fact based on all the analyses that I have done is that I am not.

    I am still trying to understand when you say a Norman that settled in Sicily in 12th century or Phoenician that settled in the 9th century BC. So one person settles there and his Y-DNA Haplogroup passes down to me (and Again, my Y-DNA Haplogroup does not indicate either Norman or Phoenician origin), but over the time period, successive generations marry people from that locale, but the time you get down to Me, the autosonal Dna is going to be what it is regardless of the Y-DNA Haplogroup is. I am not going to post my genetic distances (Dodecad, Eurogenes) but my closest distances are everything from Sicily to Rome, even some Central Italian region and modern Greece. That is what it is. MTA ancient DNA analysis is in line with and what Nat Geno, which measures DNA sourced 500 years ago back to 10,000 BC.


    My Y-DNA is I-M223, I Haplogroups are about 7-8% in Sicily on average, about 15% in the Western Half. I don't know anything about me being I-M223 other than that is what National Geographic told me when I got my report earlier this year. My research interest has been more on establishing genetic affinity with the regions where My ancestors came from and doing family research to trace back where all my Paternal and Maternal ancestors came from. I have been able with birth, marriage and death records, trace back on several family histories to the late 1700's, and on all back to early 1800's. So as I have noted before, we have different primary research issues.

    Again, you have a focus on Y-DNA lineage. I think you yourself told me that with respect to all T Y-DNA Haplogroups, the only person living today that has the Basal T is from Armenia and your line may have started somewhere in ancient Anatolia nearby, etc. However, you on your on account define yourself as Nord-Italian. There are areas of West Africa(Cameroon) that have high levels of R1b, likely due to some early back migration from I guess Iberia. Yet, autosonal DNA and where modern Cameroon West Africans cluster, none of them, or any other modern West African,, with Y-DNA R1b clusters with Europeans with R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    It is not important that I know if I am a Norman or not or if I am am a Phoenician or not. For the record, I don't think I am strongly genetically connected to either based on every running genetic distances on the ancient populations that are in Dodecad 12b, MDLP ancients and Eurogenes K13 ancients along with MTA. And not that it would be a bad thing if I was strongly connected to either, but the matter of the fact based on all the analyses that I have done is that I am not.
    I am still trying to understand when you say a Norman that settled in Sicily in 12th century or Phoenician that settled in the 9th century BC. So one person settles there and his Y-DNA Haplogroup passes down to me (and Again, my Y-DNA Haplogroup does not indicate either Norman or Phoenician origin), but over the time period, successive generations marry people from that locale, but the time you get down to Me, the autosonal Dna is going to be what it is regardless of the Y-DNA Haplogroup is. I am not going to post my genetic distances (Dodecad, Eurogenes) but my closest distances are everything from Sicily to Rome, even some Central Italian region and modern Greece. That is what it is. MTA ancient DNA analysis is in line with and what Nat Geno, which measures DNA sourced 500 years ago back to 10,000 BC.
    My Y-DNA is I-M223, I Haplogroups are about 7-8% in Sicily on average, about 15% in the Western Half. I don't know anything about me being I-M223 other than that is what National Geographic told me when I got my report earlier this year. My research interest has been more on establishing genetic affinity with the regions where My ancestors came from and doing family research to trace back where all my Paternal and Maternal ancestors came from. I have been able with birth, marriage and death records, trace back on several family histories to the late 1700's, and on all back to early 1800's. So as I have noted before, we have different primary research issues.
    Again, you have a focus on Y-DNA lineage. I think you yourself told me that with respect to all T Y-DNA Haplogroups, the only person living today that has the Basal T is from Armenia and your line may have started somewhere in ancient Anatolia nearby, etc. However, you on your on account define yourself as Nord-Italian. There are areas of West Africa(Cameroon) that have high levels of R1b, likely due to some early back migration from I guess Iberia. Yet, autosonal DNA and where modern Cameroon West Africans cluster, none of them, or any other modern West African,, with Y-DNA R1b clusters with Europeans with R1b.
    Thats correct, you never know who you are before the medieval times....you could be original Sicel people
    I told you that T came from south central asia and it split off from halpogroup LT...i do not have an issue with this
    Basal T are 3 only from Bhutan, Germany and Armenia.....i cannot see any link here
    Last edited by torzio; 24-05-20 at 22:40.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Thats correct, you never know who you are vefore the medieval times....you could be original Sicel people
    I told you that T came from south central asia and it split off from halpogroup LT...i do not have an issue with this
    Basal T are 3 only from Bhutan, Germany and Armenia.....i cannir see any link here
    Torzio: I have tried to be civil and respectful in my posts with you. I did not say you can never determine and know who you were before the Middle ages. That is not what I said. If one shows significant genetic affinity and continuity with ancient populations, then you are indeed related to those peoples. Nobody is an original 1 population. I have Neanderthal admixture, like you surely do, and like all "eurasians" that doesn't mean I am a "Neanderthal" How can you say today you are from "one source population". You are not, nor I am I, but you can estimate who you are genetically similar to based on what your relation to ancient European samples. And I don't have an issue that I am Y-DNA Haplogroup I, and although basal I is more common North of the Alps and likely originated there, I do not share close genetic affinity with modern Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, etc, etc or even Central European Austrians, Germans, etc. I share close genetic affinity with modern Italians, Sicily-South-Central first and foremost, and modern Greeks next, and ancient Romans and Greeks as well. Thus, it is correct to say that I my personal genetic DNA shows a continuity with ancient times down to today. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand, unless there are some "political reasons" or other reasons you have a hard time with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We do have one proto-Villanovan sample, and he isn't all that far from some of us (according to one analysis I'm at a distance of 6.2 to him, but others are closer), but one sample really isn't enough.

    Plus, we're talking about Iron Age. There was quite a span of time since the Italics first entered Italy.

    So, another one which is still to be determined. :)

    I agree proto-Villanovian (the one!) was not very far from others, it was just a question. BTW I dont know if there is a consensus about the first appearence of Italics in Italy, and in which precise cultural profile(s), because Ligurians tribes or some close tribes have plaid their role maybe before Italics. I have just observed that this proto-Villanovian seemed far from no region of today Italy, with something like a level autosomes sharing with all regions without clear preference, what would be interesting for a proto-Roman origin. OK it's based on amateur's analysis of distances but?
    I think that even before to assimilate some EEF in N-Italy, Italics had spent some time near or in Croatia, where they could have already picked some more EEF not too far from the Iberia Neolithicers genetically. Some phonetic traits of Italic could point towards something ancient 'balkans', even Greek. But we lack well identified Italics of several periods to say anything (before writings, linguistic identification is more game than science, even toponymy uneasy to exploit).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I agree proto-Villanovian (the one!) was not very far from others, it was just a question. BTW I dont know if there is a consensus about the first appearence of Italics in Italy, and in which precise cultural profile(s), because Ligurians tribes or some close tribes have plaid their role maybe before Italics. I have just observed that this proto-Villanovian seemed far from no region of today Italy, with something like a level autosomes sharing with all regions without clear preference, what would be interesting for a proto-Roman origin. OK it's based on amateur's analysis of distances but?
    I think that even before to assimilate some EEF in N-Italy, Italics had spent some time near or in Croatia, where they could have already picked some more EEF not too far from the Iberia Neolithicers genetically. Some phonetic traits of Italic could point towards something ancient 'balkans', even Greek. But we lack well identified Italics of several periods to say anything (before writings, linguistic identification is more game than science, even toponymy uneasy to exploit).
    I'm in complete agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Completely agree. If anyone needed further proof, just look at how abysmally wrong they were about the Etruscans. That's what happens when you completely ignore the archaeology and focus only on the myths of ancient authors because it supports your agenda.

    Academics are human, like everyone else, and must have their own biases, but they also have a livelihood to maintain. They can't stray too far from objectivity for very selfish motives. Of course, they're not all equally competent.

    Still, much better than some "enthusiast" sitting in his mom's basement obsessing about these things, or worse yet being paid by some shady racist organization.
    About Etruscans, there was never actual historical evidence that indicates their Anatolian origin. The work of Herodotus was based on hypothesis and not actual recorded data, it is highly unlikely that he could've known anything about proto-Etruscans, centuries before he was born. So that's a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Torzio: I have tried to be civil and respectful in my posts with you. I did not say you can never determine and know who you were before the Middle ages. That is not what I said. If one shows significant genetic affinity and continuity with ancient populations, then you are indeed related to those peoples. Nobody is an original 1 population. I have Neanderthal admixture, like you surely do, and like all "eurasians" that doesn't mean I am a "Neanderthal" How can you say today you are from "one source population". You are not, nor I am I, but you can estimate who you are genetically similar to based on what your relation to ancient European samples. And I don't have an issue that I am Y-DNA Haplogroup I, and although basal I is more common North of the Alps and likely originated there, I do not share close genetic affinity with modern Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, etc, etc or even Central European Austrians, Germans, etc. I share close genetic affinity with modern Italians, Sicily-South-Central first and foremost, and modern Greeks next, and ancient Romans and Greeks as well. Thus, it is correct to say that I my personal genetic DNA shows a continuity with ancient times down to today. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand, unless there are some "political reasons" or other reasons you have a hard time with this.

    I do not know what you are upset with.............I never discuss or question anybody theory or knowledge of who they are or where they came from, that is their business , I only give options to check or not ...............you must see this in reading/discussing what Salento and I are, same ydna down to same snp, yet we differ in admixture , I doubt we will get better than this

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I do not know what you are upset with.............I never discuss or question anybody theory or knowledge of who they are or where they came from, that is their business , I only give options to check or not ...............you must see this in reading/discussing what Salento and I are, same ydna down to same snp, yet we differ in admixture , I doubt we will get better than this
    I am not upset, I just again disagree with your continual assertions that it makes no sense to look at ancient DNA samples and then compare them to yourself to analyze how much genetic affinity you have with as many ancient samples as are publicly available to analyze. You keep coming back with it makes no sense to do any analysis past 1750. I disagree 100% with that approach.

    As for the Y-DNA T affinity between you and Salento, which I have read and followed best I can. I think what it shows is that Y-DNA Haplogroups are only a partial explanation, and relative to understanding source populations that make up a particular countries ethnic origins, it is the least important part of the story, in my view. Again, I am Y-DNA I-M223, that is interesting to me and it is a "part of my particular story" as it is for others. Sicily has more Y-DNA I than both Emilia, Umbria, and Marches, slightly less than Tuscany (8%) to Sicily (7.5%). Y-DNA T is about 4% in Sicily. [You can see Maciamo's article to confirm all this].

    Nevertheless, I don't think using Y-DNA Haplogroups as the end all of determining ancient ancestry and how is in genetic continuity with who is the best approach. So again, what you are indicating that you and Salento have same Y-DNA T but differ in admixture should tell you that Y-DNA is not the most important determinant. I have seen enough of Salento's post here that show he clusters with his ancestral region of Puglia and close to other Southern Italian regions and he too shows a significant affinity and continuity with the same ancient populations that I do.

    So what does that tell you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    About Etruscans, there was never actual historical evidence that indicates their Anatolian origin. The work of Herodotus was based on hypothesis and not actual recorded data, it is highly unlikely that he could've known anything about proto-Etruscans, centuries before he was born. So that's a difference.
    Ihype, my point was precisely that all the archaeology showed that any kind of migration or invasion or whatever in the first millennium BC from the Near East to Tuscany was highly unlikely. The closest ancient mtDna (ancient mtDna was all we had for the Etruscans) was to people in Germany.

    Despite all that, the anthrogenica and eurogenes types insisted that the Herodotus story was correct; also ignoring the ancient authors who insisted they were autochthonous. Anyone who showed up at those sites to debate it was either banned or ignored.

    It wasn't logical.

    The only explanation, imo, was that it suited their narrative and their prejudices.

    This wasn't the only such occurrence. It was and is part of a pattern which unfortunately dominates discussion in most hobbyist sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post

    So what does that tell you?
    What it tells me is that male invaders can come in but their overall genetic contributions gets diluted over time.

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