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Thread: Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    What it tells me is that male invaders can come in but their overall genetic contributions gets diluted over time.
    I think that is a very plausible explanation. So a Y-DNA Haplogroup that may have entered thousands of years ago in and off it self can't totally explain closest genetic affinity I think you and I are in agreement it seems. Otherwise, I would plot near modern European populations North of the Alps, maybe as far as Scandanavia given my Y-DNA Haplogroup (I-M223). Far as I know, I may have a surviving lineage from some WHG, although I like most modern Italians are not going to have predominate WHG type ancestry based on what Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2) documented. I don't know if there are any good calculators that model WHG, EHG, CHG, EEF, Iran Neolithic, etc that are out there. The only one I am aware of is the Eurogenes Hunter vs. Farmer calculator but I don't know who the Moderators and Advisors view it here so I have never posted anything from it. Do you know of any good calculators for European Farmer vs. Hunter Gather? What is your view of the Eurogenes Hunter Gather vs. European Farmer calculator?

    One thing I personally have an issue with it is that it uses Baltic Hunter Gather, which I would think is more EHG related, to proxy for all Hunter Gather ancestries in Europe. Well the number I get on that one is too high for me for Baltic Hunter Gather, I would think mine would be WHG/CHG related, which while related to EHG way back, was a distinct lineage by the Ice Age, best I can tell from what I have read over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post

    As for the Y-DNA T affinity between you and Salento, which I have read and followed best I can. I think what it shows is that Y-DNA Haplogroups are only a partial explanation, and relative to understanding source populations that make up a particular countries ethnic origins, it is the least important part of the story, in my view. Again, I am Y-DNA I-M223, that is interesting to me and it is a "part of my particular story" as it is for others. Sicily has more Y-DNA I than both Emilia, Umbria, and Marches, slightly less than Tuscany (8%) to Sicily (7.5%). Y-DNA T is about 4% in Sicily. [You can see Maciamo's article to confirm all this].

    Nevertheless, I don't think using Y-DNA Haplogroups as the end all of determining ancient ancestry and how is in genetic continuity with who is the best approach. So again, what you are indicating that you and Salento have same Y-DNA T but differ in admixture should tell you that Y-DNA is not the most important determinant. I have seen enough of Salento's post here that show he clusters with his ancestral region of Puglia and close to other Southern Italian regions and he too shows a significant affinity and continuity with the same ancient populations that I do.

    So what does that tell you?
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    What it tells me is that male invaders can come in but their overall genetic contributions gets diluted over time.
    ... I got mentioned, ... I say: inside Torzio and I y Final chr., the same Grandpà is alive and well.

    ... if the line continues, y and mt are Immortals, autosomal is partial and changes every generation.

    who’s Diluted? ... and who’s the Invader?

    but guess what, ... the Y and the mt didn’t get Diluted, did they!

    ... It means that the FINAL y and mt are Extremely Important !

    ... It means that a part of All my Grandpas and Grandmas are still in me, UNCHANGED.
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    ... many of us proudly display our Autosomal Ancestry, but the Location of our Very Ancient Tribes / Clans lies within the y chr. and the mtDNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I think that is a very plausible explanation. So a Y-DNA Haplogroup that may have entered thousands of years ago in and off it self can't totally explain closest genetic affinity I think you and I are in agreement it seems. Otherwise, I would plot near modern European populations North of the Alps, maybe as far as Scandanavia given my Y-DNA Haplogroup (I-M223). Far as I know, I may have a surviving lineage from some WHG, although I like most modern Italians are not going to have predominate WHG type ancestry based on what Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2) documented. I don't know if there are any good calculators that model WHG, EHG, CHG, EEF, Iran Neolithic, etc that are out there. The only one I am aware of is the Eurogenes Hunter vs. Farmer calculator but I don't know who the Moderators and Advisors view it here so I have never posted anything from it. Do you know of any good calculators for European Farmer vs. Hunter Gather? What is your view of the Eurogenes Hunter Gather vs. European Farmer calculator?

    One thing I personally have an issue with it is that it uses Baltic Hunter Gather, which I would think is more EHG related, to proxy for all Hunter Gather ancestries in Europe. Well the number I get on that one is too high for me for Baltic Hunter Gather, I would think mine would be WHG/CHG related, which while related to EHG way back, was a distinct lineage by the Ice Age, best I can tell from what I have read over the years.
    Hi Trapani.
    In the link below you can see FTDNA's tool "European Ancient Origins". In this link you can see images posted by me, Jovialis and Salento. As said Angela, Iberians are huge in WHG and poor in Yamma. At least I have EEF and Iberomaurisian (Moroccan) ancestry to soften my facial traits, lol, lol.
    Cheers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Reloading images (links broken in previous posts).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hi Trapani.
    In the link below you can see FTDNA's tool "European Ancient Origins". In this link you can see images posted by me, Jovialis and Salento. As said Angela, Iberians are huge in WHG and poor in Yamma. At least I have EEF and Iberomaurisian (Moroccan) ancestry to soften my facial traits, lol, lol.
    Cheers.
    Duarte, it must be some misunderstanding. Angela didn't suggest Iberians are poor in Steppe ancestry. I guess she suggested they're not too different from Tuscans in this regard, and also that they have some "extra-WHG" comparatively, while Italians have some "extra-CHG/Iran" in comparison, which in turn is part of Steppe component, but it's not "the" Steppe component. As for ancient origins, truth be said, I'm affraid it's not a great tool, as I commented in that very thread. The Metal component must be associated by FTDNA with Iran/CHG-like ancestry, reason why Western Europeans score low Metal in there, while SE Europeans score high. I believe the EHG must be "hidden" in WHG component.

    I myself get a relatively high % of Metal (16%), comparable even to Jovialis', and low WHG (28%), while my uncle gets only 10% of Metal and 37% of WHG. It seems my parents' DNAs combined in such way that I became pretty CHG/Iran-rich in relation to other North Italians. :) Sile gets the same Metal % as myself, true, but IIRC I generally score more CHG/Iran than him, and more than most of people with N. Italian ancestry I've seen. I also tend to have less WHG, and "normal" Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Duarte, it must be some misunderstanding. Angela didn't suggest Iberians are poor in Steppe ancestry. I guess she suggested they're not too different from Tuscans in this regard, and also that they have some "extra-WHG" comparatively, while Italians have some "extra-CHG/Iran" in comparison, which in turn is part of Steppe component, but it's not "the" Steppe component. As for ancient origins, truth be said, I'm affraid it's not a great tool, as I commented in that very thread. The Metal component must be associated by FTDNA with Iran/CHG-like ancestry, reason why Western Europeans score low Metal and SE Europeans score high. I believe the EHG must be "hidden" in WHG component.

    I myself get a relatively high % of Metal (16%), comparable even to to Jovialis', and low WHG (28%), while my uncle gets only 10% of Metal and 37% of WHG. It seems my parents' DNAs combined in such way that I became pretty CHG/Iran-rich in relation to other North Italians. :) Sile gets the same Metal % as myself, true, but IIRC I generally score more CHG/Iran than him, and more than most of people with N. Italian ancestry I've seen. I also tend to have less WHG, and "normal" Steppe.
    Thank-you for clearing it up, Stuvane.

    That is indeed what I meant. It's a question of relative percentages. Indeed the Iberians have steppe, but it's at Southern European levels, which are lower than those of Northern Europe.

    As to WHG, I looked in my files to see if I had an admixture chart handy to show the relative frequency of WHG for Iberians versus Northern Italians and Tuscans but I couldn't quickly find it. From memory, Northern Spain definitely does have more than Tuscany. It may be comparable for Northern Italy or a bit higher. I would need the admixture analysis in front of me to be sure.

    Certainly, there is more CHG/Iran Neo in even Northern Italy than in Spain, but most of that, imo, is Iran Neo like ancestry which entered from the southeast.

    It is the combination which accounts for the slightly more "northern" placement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Duarte, it must be some misunderstanding. Angela didn't suggest Iberians are poor in Steppe ancestry. I guess she suggested they're not too different from Tuscans in this regard, and also that they have some "extra-WHG" comparatively, while Italians have some "extra-CHG/Iran" in comparison, which in turn is part of Steppe component, but it's not "the" Steppe component. As for ancient origins, truth be said, I'm affraid it's not a great tool, as I commented in that very thread. The Metal component must be associated by FTDNA with Iran/CHG-like ancestry, reason why Western Europeans score low Metal in there, while SE Europeans score high. I believe the EHG must be "hidden" in WHG component.

    I myself get a relatively high % of Metal (16%), comparable even to Jovialis', and low WHG (28%), while my uncle gets only 10% of Metal and 37% of WHG. It seems my parents' DNAs combined in such way that I became pretty CHG/Iran-rich in relation to other North Italians. :) Sile gets the same Metal % as myself, true, but IIRC I generally score more CHG/Iran than him, and more than most of people with N. Italian ancestry I've seen. I also tend to have less WHG, and "normal" Steppe.
    Hi Regio,

    I do not believe that the modern Iberians have a high steppe component. See the graphics below. Look at the Iberian Visigoth, which I would call medieval Iberian, with its low percentage of steppe and a bit more of WHG + EHG, not to mention the Ibero-Mauritian component (light blue). These medieval people are very close to modern Iberians.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hi Regio,

    I do not believe that the modern Iberians have a high steppe component. See the graphics below. Look at the Iberian Visigoth, which I would call medieval Iberian, with its low percentage of steppe and a bit more of WHG + EHG, not to mention the Ibero-Mauritian component (light blue). These medieval people are very close to modern Iberians.



    I didn't say it's high. It's neither high nor poor. It also depends on how you define these terms, and the context. If you're just saying that Steppe ancestry encompass a minor part of Iberian ancestry, ok, but it'd be true for many other areas in Europe. Point is that Iberians are not poor in Steppe ancestry compared to other Southern Europeans. That's the reading. I thought this was the context, given the following comment: "As said Angela, Iberians are huge in WHG and poor in Yamma." You said Iberians are huge in WHG, yet, Steppe component is actually higher than WHG in Iberians, according to the very Charts you posted above.

    The Visigoth is not that relevant for the discussion, after all, I was discussing modern Iberians in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... many of us proudly display our Autosomal Ancestry, but the Location of our Very Ancient Tribes / Clans lies within the y chr. and the mtDNA.
    Salento: I did not mean any disrespect in my post. The thread starting going off track with me at least with the notion that it is worthless to use ancient DNA and try to see where your autosonal DNA fits relative to the ancients. Obviously, in the threads above, one poster did not think that is worth doing. I disagreed with him 100%.

    Then the "You don't know if you are a Norman or Phoenician" comment sort of well, I didn't care for it. Sometimes I get (Not from you), there is this "mezzo giorno" attitude that is implied by some here. I also think, again my opinion, that the fact that my genetic (From Sicily, as say opposed to Tyrol or Valle di Aosta for example) distances on all these calculators relative to the ancient Roman samples "pisses some people off", again not you and not the overwhelming majority of individuals here who identify as Americans of Italian ancestry or ethnic Italians living somewhere outside of Italy or Italian themselves. All of mine are posted in the Ancient Roman forum so no need for me to repeat them here.

    With respect to the Y-DNA research approach or Autosomal, etc. I don't think it is either or, I think it is an "and" approach. However, my personal interests have first been the autosomal more than the Y-DNA per se or mtdna approach when doing my own research. I did't know what my Y was until January of this year when I got my National Geographic report. I have spent most of my time over the last I don't know how many years doing my own personal research and using Ancestry doing research on family history and have now all kinds of documents from the 1800's that has allowed my to trace back, so My Mothers father was a Francesco (born in Palermo Province), his Father was a Cologero, his was a Carmelo and then Giovanni, that gets me back to 1792 when Giovanni was born. Unknown to me, and My Mother as well, one of her family lineages on her Mother's side gets back to Calabria somewhere in the early 1800's. I pretty much have all the family history back to about 1800 on 7 of my 8 Great Grandparents.


    As for the Y-DNA Haplogroup and as I said, I didn't know anything about my own Y-DNA until I got my GENO report (as I noted before) and found I was I-M223. I have not done much research on my own till this day. I have gone back and read some of the research papers and based on Fu et al 2016 paper, Basal I was present in Southern Italy before the Ice Age. There are a bunch of samples from your region (Puglia) that were studied in the Fu et al 2016 paper and there was basal I, and I1 in Southern Italy dating back to about 27,000 BC in Puglia, your neck of the woods.

    So lets say I wanted to be a smart " " and got into a debate with a hypothetical poster that says you don't know if you are a "Norman or Phoenician" and I say well buddy, Haplogroup I was in Italy before the R1b and a hole bunch others. Does that mean I am more "Italian" than anyone else based on being tied to basal Y-DNA I. I also think it is pretty much established that Basal I is likely the only Haplogroup that is original in Europe. Does that mean I am more European than someone that doesn't have a Haplogroup tied to Basal I.

    Of course the answers to all the above questions is No. Modern Italians came to be pretty much in the Bronze Age, based on what I can tell, regardless of the Y-DNA Haplogroups. Sorry you were mentioned and I did not plan to get anybody dragged into this but the thread but the "you don't know if your a Norman or Phoenician" comment was Bull S in opinion.


    Fu_IceAge_suppTable.JPG



    https://static-content.springer.com/...ESM350_ESM.pdf

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 25-05-20 at 20:24. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... I got mentioned, ... I say: inside Torzio and I y Final chr., the same Grandpà is alive and well.

    ... if the line continues, y and mt are Immortals, autosomal is partial and changes every generation.

    who’s Diluted? ... and who’s the Invader?

    but guess what, ... the Y and the mt didn’t get Diluted, did they!

    ... It means that the FINAL y and mt are Extremely Important !

    ... It means that a part of All my Grandpas and Grandmas are still in me, UNCHANGED.
    Salento: Your Italian. Which was the point I was trying to make in earlier post. You cluster with both modern Italians in your region and other surrounding regions and ancient Romans from nearby Lazio. That was what I was getting at regardless of what Y-DNA Haplogroup you have (T) or I have (I) or anyone else, J2, R1b, G, etc, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I didn't say it's high. It's neither high nor poor. It also depends on how you define these terms, and the context. If you're just saying that Steppe ancestry encompass a minor part of Iberian ancestry, ok, but it'd be true for many other areas in Europe. Point is that Iberians are not poor in Steppe ancestry compared to other Southern Europeans. That's the reading. I thought this was the context, given the following comment: "As said Angela, [b]Iberians are huge in WHG[b] and poor in Yamma." You said Iberians are huge in WHG, yet, Steppe component is actually higher than WHG in Iberians, according to the very Charts you posted above.

    The Visigoth is not that relevant for the discussion, after all, I was discussing modern Iberians in general.
    The Visigoths, when arrived in Iberia, had little, genetically, of Germanics. They were more a mixed of Germans, Alans and Celts and, in Iberia, they mixed a lot with the local Celtiberians also co-opting a little bit of Berber ancestry. This samples of paper are not Germans, but mixed medieval Iberians.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Well, to introduce a little more confusion. :)

    This is from Haak et al. Now, from what I recall, this was NOT done with an ADMIXTURE program but with one of the newer statistical tools, although I don't remember which one. Perhaps it was qdm, but I'd have to go back to the paper to check.

    According to this, many Spaniards don't actually have any "additional" WHG, and the same is true for Tuscans. Their steppe is about the same as that of Northern Italians?

    I haven't seen that elsewhere, but perhaps because, as I said, this is not an Admixture based chart.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Hi Trapani.
    In the link below you can see FTDNA's tool "European Ancient Origins". In this link you can see images posted by me, Jovialis and Salento. As said Angela, Iberians are huge in WHG and poor in Yamma. At least I have EEF and Iberomaurisian (Moroccan) ancestry to soften my facial traits, lol, lol.
    Cheers.
    Duarte: I can't find the Ftdna link and I don't have any DNA Kit over there (yet). From what I got in your post, they have their own calculator that breaks down WHG, EEF, Iran Neo/CHG, EHG, etc, which is really neat if they in fact do. The only one I have ever run my DNA Kit on is the Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer, but I don't know exactly what that calculator means by Mediterranean Farmer vs. Anatolian Farmer, etc, as I see those as closely, closely related. Anatolian Farmers moved into modern Greece (med) and spread directly into Italy and up Balkans. Does that sound correct. All I know is I get like 65% combined Anatolian Farmer and Mediterranean Farmer DNA, which I interpret as Neolithic EEF type ancestry. maybe I am wrong and if I am would appreciate your thoughts or thoughts from Mods/Advisors (Jovialis and Angela). I get like 16% Baltic Hunter Gather, which I think is proxying with respect to me, more WHG, as no way I am 16% EHG type ancestry for if that were true, I would
    be plotting with the Northern Italian samples in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2) that document more EHG type ancestry vs Central and Southern/Sicily. However, all Italian samples as the study notes have high levels of EEF-Neolithic type ancestry 56% SItaly1 to 72% NItaly4. So I guess if that Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer is relatively accurate, I am plotting with respect to EEF type ancestry right smack in the middle of the range documented by Raveane et al 2019. Does Eurogenes Calculator give you similar components as the Ftdna?


    Raveane_etal_2019Figures2.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, to introduce a little more confusion. :)

    This is from Haak et al. Now, from what I recall, this was NOT done with an ADMIXTURE program but with one of the newer statistical tools, although I don't remember which one. Perhaps it was qdm, but I'd have to go back to the paper to check.

    According to this, many Spaniards don't actually have any "additional" WHG, and the same is true for Tuscans. Their steppe is about the same as that of Northern Italians?

    I haven't seen that elsewhere, but perhaps because, as I said, this is not an Admixture based chart.

    It breaks up ancestry in just three parts: LBK, Loschbour and Yamnaya. I wonder if the SW tries to fit all DNA in these categorizations or if it ignores the part that doesn't fit well in them.

    Curiously, here Bergamo have more Loschbour than both Spanish and Spanish_North, however, Spanish_North has more Yamnaya than Bergamo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Duarte: I can't find the Ftdna link and I don't have any DNA Kit over there (yet). From what I got in your post, they have their own calculator that breaks down WHG, EEF, Iran Neo/CHG, EHG, etc, which is really neat if they in fact do. The only one I have ever run my DNA Kit on is the Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer, but I don't know exactly what that calculator means by Mediterranean Farmer vs. Anatolian Farmer, etc, as I see those as closely, closely related. Anatolian Farmers moved into modern Greece (med) and spread directly into Italy and up Balkans. Does that sound correct. All I know is I get like 65% combined Anatolian Farmer and Mediterranean Farmer DNA, which I interpret as Neolithic EEF type ancestry. maybe I am wrong and if I am would appreciate your thoughts or thoughts from Mods/Advisors (Jovialis and Angela). I get like 16% Baltic Hunter Gather, which I think is proxying with respect to me, more WHG, as no way I am 16% EHG type ancestry for if that were true, I would
    be plotting with the Northern Italian samples in Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2) that document more EHG type ancestry vs Central and Southern/Sicily. However, all Italian samples as the study notes have high levels of EEF-Neolithic type ancestry 56% SItaly1 to 72% NItaly4. So I guess if that Eurogenes HG vs. Farmer is relatively accurate, I am plotting with respect to EEF type ancestry right smack in the middle of the range documented by Raveane et al 2019. Does Eurogenes Calculator give you similar components as the Ftdna?


    Raveane_etal_2019Figures2.jpg
    Well, Trapani.

    They are very different algorithms, but both have in common the fact that they have not been updated for quite a long time.
    I agree with @Regio X that FTDNA's "My Ancient European Origins" may not be a good calculator. But I believe that Eurogenes "HG v F" is also not.
    If you use this correspondence, the results will be similar but, the fact is that the nameclatures become very weird.

    WHG = Baltic Hunter Gatherer.
    EEF = Mediterranean Farmer + Middle Eastern Herder + East African Pastoralist.
    Metal Age invader = Anatolian Farmer (??????).
    Others = Non European.

    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Your Italian. Which was the point I was trying to make in earlier post. You cluster with both modern Italians in your region and other surrounding regions and ancient Romans from nearby Lazio. That was what I was getting at regardless of what Y-DNA Haplogroup you have (T) or I have (I) or anyone else, J2, R1b, G, etc, etc.
    ... I was mainly responding to the post after yours, ... I didn’t take the “diluted” comments very Kindly, ... lol

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Duarte: Thanks for the response. Yes, I can see Ftdna the way they are combining populations is not in line with where the recent extant research is. So I can already just by looking at the population definitions see what Regio X is saying and I agree. The Eurogenes HG vs. F also seems to use populations as proxies for other ones that can be measured distinctively which is what Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2) was able to do. It would be nice if someone would come up with a calculator to captures the distinct variables that Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2 did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... I was mainly responding to the post after yours, ... I didn’t take the “diluted” comments very Kindly, ... lol
    Ok thanks for the clarification. I agree, nor should you take it kindly. It seems you and I both were being potentially viewed through the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, to introduce a little more confusion. :)

    This is from Haak et al. Now, from what I recall, this was NOT done with an ADMIXTURE program but with one of the newer statistical tools, although I don't remember which one. Perhaps it was qdm, but I'd have to go back to the paper to check.

    According to this, many Spaniards don't actually have any "additional" WHG, and the same is true for Tuscans. Their steppe is about the same as that of Northern Italians?

    I haven't seen that elsewhere, but perhaps because, as I said, this is not an Admixture based chart.

    Out of curiosity, I checked the results for Iberians and North Italians also using LBK, Loschbour and Yamnaya, but under the perspective of G25.

    The targets come from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25mo...d-averages.htm
    The source Loschbour comes from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancient-scaled.htm
    And the LBK and Yamnaya sources come from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancient-averages-scaled.htm

    Interestingly, Tuscany gets also 0% of Loschbour in here (and also more Yamnaya than Lombardy), however, no Iberian pop gets 0% of Loschbour.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Out of curiosity, I checked the results for Iberians and North Italians also using LBK, Loschbour and Yamnaya, but under the perspective of G25.

    The targets come from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25mo...d-averages.htm
    The source Loschbour comes from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancient-scaled.htm
    And the LBK and Yamnaya sources come from here: http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancient-averages-scaled.htm

    Interestingly, Tuscany gets also 0% of Loschbour in here (and also more Yamnaya than Lombardy), however, no Iberian pop gets 0% of Loschbour.


    Iberians are below average in Yamna and above average in WHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    It breaks up ancestry in just three parts: LBK, Loschbour and Yamnaya. I wonder if the SW tries to fit all DNA in these categorizations or if it ignores the part that doesn't fit well in them.

    Curiously, here Bergamo have more Loschbour than both Spanish and Spanish_North, however, Spanish_North has more Yamnaya than Bergamo.
    From memory, Lazaridis said that Spanish_North is the Spanish Basque, but I may be wrong.

    Anyway, Raveane has their own charts.

    If they're correct, it seems to very much depend on the specific area, whereas I was generalizing.






    Anyone have their list handy for the specific areas in "Western" Europe and Italy which correspond to the numbers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Ok thanks for the clarification. I agree, nor should you take it kindly. It seems you and I both were being potentially viewed through the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations.
    .... they need better political lenses, ... in 1943 / ‘44 the Capital of Italy was in Puglia / Salento (Brindisi) ... can’t get more Italian than that ... :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From memory, Lazaridis said that Spanish_North is the Spanish Basque, but I may be wrong.

    Anyway, Raveane has their own charts.

    If they're correct, it seems to very much depend on the specific area, whereas I was generalizing.






    Anyone have their list handy for the specific areas in "Western" Europe and Italy which correspond to the numbers?
    Interesting. Thanks.
    I guess Spanish_North is not Basque, because Basque is also listed in that Chart. As in Haak et al., Basque scores higher Loschbour and lower Yamnaya in that model based on G25.

    @Duarte
    It's just a specific model comparing Iberians and North Italians, based on the same few components used by Haak et al. Nothing more.

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    Ditto for me. Loschbour "encripted" :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Interesting. Thanks.
    I guess Spanish_North is not Basque, because Basque is also listed in that Chart. As in Haak et al., Basque scores higher Loschbour and lower Yamnaya in that model based on G25.
    As I said, my recollection is that Lazaridis said Basque means French Basque, and North Spain means Pais Vasco.

    However, I can't find it in my files, so take it fwiw.

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