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Thread: Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

  1. #151
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    ... either-way, at some point the Greek expansion was stopped:

    Many Greek Colonists were Killed by the Messapi:

    In 473 BC, the Messapi inflicted a decisive defeat, “the greatest slaughter of Greeks ever known ....” Herodotus

    “Nel 473 a.C. i Messapi infliggono ai Tarantini, alleati con Reggio, una decisiva sconfitta, “la più grande strage di Greci fra quante se ne conoscano” dirà Erodoto, ...”


    http://www.archeologico.org/wp-conte...SA-SALENTO.pdf
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis/Bicicleur/Angela: This new paper might deserve a new thread when the final version comes out or if you all think that is the case now, then perhaps that is the best way to go. However, it it is related to Sicily-Pre Greek Colonization.

    Bicicleur: You mentioned the Grotto Del Uzzo site in post #43. The van der Loosdrecht paper has 18 (19 in study as OrienteC Sicilian HG is used in data analysis) new samples from that site. The paper looks at the transition from the Mesolithic to Neolithic in Sicily. The 2 oldest HG from Grotto Del Uzzo cluster with the HG from Favignana, Sicily. Nine of the samples are grouped together as Sicilian Late Mesolithic HG.

    The 3rd group is Sicilian Early Neolithic (N=7) from the period 5460_5220 BC and these samples these individuals show "substantially Near-Eastern-related ancestry and fall close to early farmers from the Balkans (Croatia, Greece), Hungary, and Anatolia, but not Iberia (Fig. 1C). So I don't think that is a surprise to most of the folks here but it does confirm that Sicily was already EEF type predominate ancestry, with some Local WG admixture, well before the Greek colonization in Sicily starting around 800-750BC. Supplemental Table S-7 provides Mtdna Haplogroups, U dominates (13 of 17). Y-DNA for 4 males I, I2a2, H, and C1a2. I2a2 is in my area code so personally very interesting on that level.

    Note: I did a search to see if this paper had already been linked in a forum and I did not find it. If I missed it, I apologize.

    van de Loosdrecht et al 2020 (pre-print version). Supplements are available for download.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....986158v1.full

    Catalano et al 2020: This paper (Reich is on it) provides evidence that the Favignana Sicilian HG shows affinity with Paleolithic individuals from Messina, Sicily (Is there a published paper on that?). The conclusion of the study is that the Sicilian HG were connected genetically not only with HG from other parts of Europe (consistent with Mathieson et al 2018) but more specifically genetically and culturally with HG from the peninsula.

    "In conclusion, the DNA study of Oriente C is particularly relevant to improve the knowledge about the peopling of the Central Mediterranean by Anatomically Modern Humans after the LGM. The
    data support the hypothesis that hunter-gatherer groups arrived in Sicily from the Italian peninsula, confirming results derived from anatomical studies on human fossil remains of Grotta di San Teodoro and
    from material productions (lithic and figurative) whose characteristics fall within the Late Epigravettian physiognomy of Southern Italy, albeit with some peculiar features, especially in lithic productions, which
    reveal a regional identity."


    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...00264-main.pdf


    Table for van de Loosdrecht et al 2020 with Sample dates.

    Capture_TableS1.2_Vandeloos.JPG
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 17-06-20 at 14:57. Reason: clarification

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    i agree with you that the issue about illegal or legal immigrants is not part of this discussion. i was talking about eurocentric folks at anthrogenica not about simple opponents of illegal immigrants. those are indeed 2 different things. i don't see why you and yetos think it was the same.

    do you think they would look for recent near eastern ancestry in sicilians just because they don't like illegal migrants? makes no sense, right? i think they just can't admit to themselves that european ancestry is in large parts related to near east and that phenotypic traits that are overlapping between those two regions can be there because of shared ancestry and not just because of recent mixture.likewise a near easterner with european traits must have recent european ancestry or for example ancestry from yamnas. it was the same with darker looking northern europeans. they must have had recent southern European ancestry, romans maybe, it couldn't be because of shared ancestry in the whole population. that one changed, now they need to somehow exclude near east.
    I absolutely agree with you, Ailchu. It's IMHO a bit naive to think this is really about the "steppe" or even about "ancient Indo-Europeans". Those are just keywords that are in fact indicators of "true Europeanness"(which, given the unquestionably close relationship with Near Easterners, means trying to split hairs to find something that really sets them apart from their distant cousins) used by eurocentric people who aren't actually interested in the fine details and complexities of genetic history, but are just looking for a scientific reasoning for their a priori prejudices and biases. If Indo-Europeans and steppe people were in fact assumed by modern science to have come from outside Europe and clearly non-European areas, they would be twisting everything they could to try to prove they have the least relationship with those people and are in fact "pre-Indo-European". The real problem deep down is - God forbid! - that they could be much closer to Near Easterners (which they often generically label "Arabs") than they're willing to admit so far.

  4. #154
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it's clear that Sicily was indeed pushed northward (as all of Europe) due to the steppe introgression as well as eastward and particularly northeastward toward the East Mediterranean and the Anatolia/Caucasus in particular.

    Both the genetic ancestry models and the PCA plots indicate that strongly, and a significant change (though nothing "revolutionary" in genetic makeup) really seems to have happened between the LBA and the modern era, the main changes being a minor but still remarkable increase in Natufian-related, Yamnaya-related and Iran_N-related admixtures.

    The clear decrease of WHG percentage from the average in MN to LBA samples also seems to indicate a relevant change after the LBA, a change generally bringing Sicily closer to the Aegean genetics and concomitantly also closer to Central/North Europe (i.e. higher steppe ancestry). Even before the LBA, Maykop-related (which already includes Iran_N, Anatolia_N and even some EHG, but still more ~40-50% CHG) had already become a significant presence in the genetic makeup of Sicily at least since the Bell Beaker period (the Beaker_Sicily sample), so it's no novelty postdating the Carthaginians and Greeks in Sicily.

    Now we can discuss what population movements (I really doubt it was just one major admixture event and nothing else) caused that change and how that relates (or not) to cultural, archaeological and linguistic changes in the island, but it did happen. IMO it's clear that Sicilians aren't just very Ancient Greek (Mycenaean + Minoan)-shifted Bronze Age Sicilians (for if they were they would plot differently in the PCA chart and have less Natufian-related and Maykop-related admixtures), so other relevant populations must also have contributed to the genetics of modern Sicilians after the LBA (considering the main components involved, we could consider early Italics, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks not just from Greece but also from Anatolian and Cyprus, Italians from the mainland, Normans, North Africans during the Roman Era as well as during the Muslim rule, Byzantines from Anatolia and Levant, etc.).That doesn't make Sicilians any more or less European, of couse, not just due to historical and cultural fators, but also because the bulk of their ancestry, at least in terms of really ancient and more distinctive admixtures (e.g. Anatolia_N, Iran_N, WHG, Steppe_EMBA, etc.) is still overwhelmingly formed by the same main components that shape the European genetics elsewhere.


    See the PCA chart (I don't know why but apparently I can't post any pictures in my posts here yet): https://imgur.com/a/pbpPKao

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    LINK - If you prefer to see pictures of these tables: https://imgur.com/a/1zqnWSg

    Target Distance
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    EHG_Karelia
    Iran_Neo
    MAR_EN
    Maykop
    Natufian
    WHG
    Yamnaya_RUS
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4062 0.03016186
    92,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    7,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4063 0.03005867
    89,2
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    10,8
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4064 0.03054454
    91,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    8,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4065 0.02933668
    85,8
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    14,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122 0.03482724
    88,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    12,0
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123 0.03204897
    77,6
    0,0
    0,0
    1,6
    2,4
    0,0
    9,2
    9,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124 0.03682332
    76,8
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    9,0
    14,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807 0.04110646
    89,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    3,4
    0,0
    7,0
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561 0.03634092
    67,4
    6,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    12,4
    13,6
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442 0.03899473
    81,4
    0,0
    0,0
    1,2
    1,2
    0,0
    7,6
    8,6
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11443 0.03095006
    49,4
    0,0
    0,0
    0,4
    0,0
    0,0
    8,6
    41,6
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe 0.05027567
    72,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,2
    22,6
    0,0
    5,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125 0.02619634
    76,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    15,2
    0,0
    8,0
    0,2
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109 0.03939586
    83,4
    0,0
    0,0
    1,0
    9,4
    0,0
    6,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878 0.02363986
    81,0
    0,0
    0,0
    1,8
    1,8
    0,0
    5,8
    9,6
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372 0.04711925
    81,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    11,6
    0,0
    7,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876 0.03185393
    73,8
    0,0
    0,0
    1,0
    11,0
    0,0
    6,0
    8,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H 0.02219327
    52,8
    0,0
    1,8
    0,0
    15,6
    7,4
    0,8
    21,6
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H 0.03396469
    48,4
    0,0
    2,6
    0,0
    10,6
    12,8
    0,6
    25,0
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H 0.02012140
    44,6
    0,0
    4,8
    0,0
    19,8
    10,8
    4,0
    16,0
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H 0.02622899
    48,6
    0,0
    5,8
    0,0
    8,0
    8,6
    5,6
    23,4
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H 0.02486791
    47,4
    0,0
    6,0
    2,4
    14,4
    9,4
    3,6
    16,8
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H 0.02924797
    50,0
    0,0
    4,2
    2,2
    8,8
    8,6
    4,4
    21,8

    ************************************************** ***

    Target Distance
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    EHG_Karelia
    GEO_CHG
    Iran_Neo
    MAR_EN
    Natufian
    WHG
    Yamnaya_RUS
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4062 0.03016186
    92,6
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    7,4
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4063 0.03005867
    89,2
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    10,8
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4064 0.03054454
    91,6
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    8,4
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4065 0.02933668
    85,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    14,2
    0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122 0.03482724
    88
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    12
    0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123 0.03187045
    78,4
    0
    0
    1,8
    1,4
    0
    9,4
    9
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124 0.03682332
    76,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    9
    14,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807 0.04120160
    91
    0
    0,6
    0
    0
    0
    6,4
    2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561 0.03634053
    67,4
    6,4
    0
    0
    0
    0
    12,4
    13,8
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442 0.03901785
    82
    0
    0
    0
    1,2
    0
    7,4
    9,4
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11443 0.03095006
    49,4
    0
    0
    0
    0,4
    0
    8,6
    41,6
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe 0.05084224
    80
    0
    13,4
    0,6
    0,2
    0
    4,2
    1,6
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125 0.02476793
    81,8
    0
    4,4
    4,6
    0
    0
    7,6
    1,6
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109 0.03981940
    87,2
    0
    1,8
    1,8
    0,8
    0
    5,2
    3,2
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876 0.03282856
    77,8
    0
    5,4
    0
    1
    0,4
    5
    10,4
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878 0.02364671
    81,6
    0
    0,6
    0,6
    1,8
    0
    5,8
    9,6
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372 0.04686058
    86
    0
    1,2
    0
    0
    0
    4,6
    8,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H 0.02305468
    57,8
    0
    7
    3,8
    0
    8,2
    0
    23,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H 0.03479737
    52,8
    0
    1,2
    6,2
    0
    12,6
    0
    27,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H 0.02260920
    51,4
    0
    7,8
    8,2
    0
    11,4
    3
    18,2
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H 0.02683218
    52
    0
    1,2
    8,4
    0
    8,4
    5
    25
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H 0.02621562
    52
    0
    5
    9
    1,8
    10,6
    3
    18,6
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H 0.02984338
    53,4
    0
    1,2
    6,8
    2
    9
    3,6
    24

  6. #156
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    Here is the Source and admixture Table from the pre-print full text version of VandeLoosdrecht et al 2020 with the samples from Grotta del Uzzo. Iran Neolithic was there even before Bronze Age as some early Natufian-Levant. But the dominate source was Anatolian Neolithic. All of these samples in VandeLoosdrecht et al 2020 pre-date the ones analyzed in Fernandes et al 2020 (Figure 1). So this new paper confirms arrival of Iran Neolithic into Sicily just as Fernandes et al 2020 found, but it documents the arrival even earlier. So to refer back to Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2 which looks at Modern Italians, in Sicily the WHG/Anatolian Neolithic/Iran Neolithic ancestry was there by Early Neolithic period along with some Natufian-Levant (3 individuals) . The Steppe ancestry got there around 2,200 BC based on Fernandes et al 2020. So the only ancestry I haven't seen documented in Sicily in either of these studies is the Caucus Hunter Gather (CHG) (i.e. Maykop) and when it arrived, which I think should be closely related with the Iran Neolithic. I do see in Ygorcs Post #155 Maykop (CHG) showing up in the Sicilian_Bell Beaker so maybe that is when it arrived in Sicily and other Bronze Age Sicilians. What Calculator is that if you don't mind me asking. It would be nice if researchers would be able to analyze the other 2 Sicilian_Bell Beakers or find more samples.

    Capture_TableP415_Vandeloos.jpg



    Capture_Figure1_Fernandes_2020.JPGRaveane_etal_2019Figures2.jpg
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 17-06-20 at 21:00. Reason: additional information

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    We already know about 1600 BC there were migrations from the land of Hidali/Hitali in the Zagros region where ancient Elymais lived to the Levant region of the eastern Mediterranean (Phoenicia) and then from there to Sicily and some other parts of Southern Europe. These people were Indo-Europeans.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    We already know about 1600 BC there were migrations from the land of Hidali/Hitali in the Zagros region where ancient Elymais lived to the Levant region of the eastern Mediterranean (Phoenicia) and then from there to Sicily and some other parts of Southern Europe. These people were Indo-Europeans.
    We know nothing of the sort. This is a serious site for discussion of genetics. Post your fantasies elsewhere.They don't belong here.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think it's clear that Sicily was indeed pushed northward (as all of Europe) due to the steppe introgression as well as eastward and particularly northeastward toward the East Mediterranean and the Anatolia/Caucasus in particular.

    Both the genetic ancestry models and the PCA plots indicate that strongly, and a significant change (though nothing "revolutionary" in genetic makeup) really seems to have happened between the LBA and the modern era, the main changes being a minor but still remarkable increase in Natufian-related, Yamnaya-related and Iran_N-related admixtures.

    The clear decrease of WHG percentage from the average in MN to LBA samples also seems to indicate a relevant change after the LBA, a change generally bringing Sicily closer to the Aegean genetics and concomitantly also closer to Central/North Europe (i.e. higher steppe ancestry). Even before the LBA, Maykop-related (which already includes Iran_N, Anatolia_N and even some EHG, but still more ~40-50% CHG) had already become a significant presence in the genetic makeup of Sicily at least since the Bell Beaker period (the Beaker_Sicily sample), so it's no novelty postdating the Carthaginians and Greeks in Sicily.

    Now we can discuss what population movements (I really doubt it was just one major admixture event and nothing else) caused that change and how that relates (or not) to cultural, archaeological and linguistic changes in the island, but it did happen. IMO it's clear that Sicilians aren't just very Ancient Greek (Mycenaean + Minoan)-shifted Bronze Age Sicilians (for if they were they would plot differently in the PCA chart and have less Natufian-related and Maykop-related admixtures), so other relevant populations must also have contributed to the genetics of modern Sicilians after the LBA (considering the main components involved, we could consider early Italics, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks not just from Greece but also from Anatolian and Cyprus, Italians from the mainland, Normans, North Africans during the Roman Era as well as during the Muslim rule, Byzantines from Anatolia and Levant, etc.).That doesn't make Sicilians any more or less European, of couse, not just due to historical and cultural fators, but also because the bulk of their ancestry, at least in terms of really ancient and more distinctive admixtures (e.g. Anatolia_N, Iran_N, WHG, Steppe_EMBA, etc.) is still overwhelmingly formed by the same main components that shape the European genetics elsewhere.


    See the PCA chart (I don't know why but apparently I can't post any pictures in my posts here yet): https://imgur.com/a/pbpPKao
    It doesn't matter how many academic papers are posted here; the usual suspects prefer the amateur models which "prove" their preconceived notions.

    If I had the time I'd go back and pull up all the models which "proved" that Etruscans were first millennium BC Anatolians. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We know nothing of the sort. This is a serious site for discussion of genetics. Post your fantasies elsewhere.They don't belong here.
    Whether you like it or not, the arrival of Iranian-related ancestry in Sicily about 1500 BC is a serious discussion of genetics, I think you actually should post your eurocentric fantasies elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Whether you like it or not, the arrival of Iranian-related ancestry in Sicily about 1500 BC is a serious discussion of genetics, I think you actually should post your eurocentric fantasies elsewhere.
    Iran-like ancestry has been in the central Mediterranean since the neolithic. It just didn't arrive how you stridently, and ignorantly proposed.

    FYI: Modern Iranians, are different from the prehistoric and early people who lived in what is today Iran. There has been more than marginal admixture with Natufian, and Sub-Saharan African ancestry throughout the middle east. Though Middle Eastern Jewish populations seem to have less to none of the SSA. They probably didn't mix with, or less so with, the medieval African slaves, like the rest of the Middle East did. Though the chart doesn't show it, I am sure Iranian-Jews have better preserved their pre-medieval ancestry, than the modern Iranian population at large.

    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Iran-like ancestry has been in the central Mediterranean since the neolithic. It just didn't arrive how you stridently, and ignorantly proposed.

    FYI: Modern Iranians, are different from the prehistoric and early people who lived in what is today Iran. There has been more than marginal admixture with Natufian, and Sub-Saharan African ancestry throughout the middle east. Though Middle Eastern Jewish populations seem to have less to none of the SSA. They probably didn't mix with, or less so with, the medieval African slaves, like the rest of the Middle East did. Though the chart doesn't show it, I am sure Iranian-Jews have better preserved their pre-medieval ancestry, than the modern Iranian population at large.

    It absolutely doesn't matter who modern Iranians are, please read the genetic studies, according to Fernandes et al. (The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean) "Iranian-related ancestry began to be introduced in the Phoenician period (1550 - 300 BC)", it also says "it is not only consistent with the historical evidence and our finding of this ancestry type but is also supported by previously published mitochondrial DNA which has documented haplotypes in ancient Phoenician colonies in modern Sardinians.", so it came from the West Asia, not Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Iran-like ancestry has been in the central Mediterranean since the neolithic. It just didn't arrive how you stridently, and ignorantly proposed.

    FYI: Modern Iranians, are different from the prehistoric and early people who lived in what is today Iran. There has been more than marginal admixture with Natufian, and Sub-Saharan African ancestry throughout the middle east. Though Middle Eastern Jewish populations seem to have less to none of the SSA. They probably didn't mix with, or less so with, the medieval African slaves, like the rest of the Middle East did. Though the chart doesn't show it, I am sure Iranian-Jews have better preserved their pre-medieval ancestry, than the modern Iranian population at large.

    present day Iranains have 20% Indian ancestry. Also some low percentages of Arabic ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    present day Iranains have 20% Indian ancestry. Also some low percentages of Arabic ancestry
    Is that really true? I would imagine Caucasian ancestry has made a bigger impact in the most densely populated parts of the country. Obviously modern Iranians aren't perfect representations of the earliest Iranians due to Anatolia_N ancestry. I believe Iran_N ancestry actually peaks in Pakistan.

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    Shahmiri:

    Phoenician settlements in Sicily were not there until 1000-900 BC, at the earliest, perhaps not as late as 800 BC or Northwest coast. Greek Colonization between 800-750 BC on East Coast and would move all the way to NW Sicily as far as Seilinute and Segesta in Trapani. I don't see any statement in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper talking about Pheonician period being 1550 to 300 BC. If there is such a statement, please refer me to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Shahmiri:

    Phoenician settlements in Sicily were not there until 1000-900 BC, at the earliest, perhaps not as late as 800 BC or Northwest coast. Greek Colonization between 800-750 BC on East Coast and would move all the way to NW Sicily as far as Seilinute and Segesta in Trapani. I don't see any statement in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper talking about Pheonician period being 1550 to 300 BC. If there is such a statement, please refer me to it.
    As you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians_and_wine "Phoenicia was a civilization centered in current day Lebanon. Between 1550 BC and 300 BC, the Phoenicians developed a maritime trading culture that expanded their influence from the Levant to North Africa, the Greek Isles, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula."

    But about Sicily, we read in Fernandes et al 2020 paper: "In Sicily, Iranian-related ancestry was present during the Middle Bronze Age, showing that this ancestry which was widespread in the Aegean around this time (in association with the Minoan and Mycenaean cultures), also reached further west."

    And this map:



    As you see it also came from the West Asia, I don't know why you believe Iranian-related ancestry should come from another land!

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    It is important to note that when the paper says Iranian ancestry was widespread in the Aegean and relates it to the Mycenaean culture and then it says this culture reached further west, we should look for a common culture which seems to be nothing other than an original Indo-European culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Whether you like it or not, the arrival of Iranian-related ancestry in Sicily about 1500 BC is a serious discussion of genetics, I think you actually should post your eurocentric fantasies elsewhere.
    Of course Iranian related ancestry arrived in Sicily, and other parts of Southern Italy. No one disputes that, and I have absolutely no problem with it, which you'd know if you'd been here for a while and weren't just judging the posters here by the Nordicist Italian whack jobs of anthrofora. However, your timing is off because some arrived before that and some after that. Clearly you don't keep up with the research. Use your time to educate yourself by reading the papers linked by Jovialis, Palermo and others.

    It's the rest of what you posted that's complete nonsense. No one knows precisely who the Elymians were, or where they came from. Did you people learn nothing from the Herodotus/Etruscans debacle?

    Furthermore, to claim they were INDO-EUROPEANS who went from the Zagros to the LEVANT and then to Sicily is beyond insane..

    If you keep up posting absolute crap like this, you're out of here.

    This is not going to become the new home for the looney hobbyists. Clear?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    As you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians_and_wine "Phoenicia was a civilization centered in current day Lebanon. Between 1550 BC and 300 BC, the Phoenicians developed a maritime trading culture that expanded their influence from the Levant to North Africa, the Greek Isles, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula."

    But about Sicily, we read in Fernandes et al 2020 paper: "In Sicily, Iranian-related ancestry was present during the Middle Bronze Age, showing that this ancestry which was widespread in the Aegean around this time (in association with the Minoan and Mycenaean cultures), also reached further west."

    And this map:



    As you see it also came from the West Asia, I don't know why you believe Iranian-related ancestry should come from another land!
    DID YOU EVER HEAR ABOUT CHECKING DATES????

    They didn't reach Italy in 1500 BC. so your point is absurd.

    Plus, Iranian related ancestry went by way of ANATOLIA. That's why Anatolian Bronze Age migration is an important factor in the population genetics of southeastern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    It absolutely doesn't matter who modern Iranians are, please read the genetic studies, according to Fernandes et al. (The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean) "Iranian-related ancestry began to be introduced in the Phoenician period (1550 - 300 BC)", it also says "it is not only consistent with the historical evidence and our finding of this ancestry type but is also supported by previously published mitochondrial DNA which has documented haplotypes in ancient Phoenician colonies in modern Sardinians.", so it came from the West Asia, not Europe.
    Obviously, the Iranian related ancestry discussed in the papers is based on ANCIENT samples from the Iranian Neolithic for example, or it's based on Anatolian Chalcolithic or Anatolian Bronze Age samples. Who says any different?

    All Jovialis was CLEARLY saying is that modern Iranians have changed since then, which is obvious. It's not MODERN Iranian related genetics that is showing up in Southeast Europe.

    Try reading more carefully before shooting off a post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Obviously, the Iranian related ancestry discussed in the papers is based on ANCIENT samples from the Iranian Neolithic for example, or it's based on Anatolian Chalcolithic or Anatolian Bronze Age samples. Who says any different?

    All Jovialis was CLEARLY saying is that modern Iranians have changed since then, which is obvious. It's not MODERN Iranian related genetics that is showing up in Southeast Europe.

    Try reading more carefully before shooting off a post.
    Indeed! I would upvote, but I'm currrently out of juice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    LINK - If you prefer to see pictures of these tables: https://imgur.com/a/1zqnWSg

    Target Distance
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    EHG_Karelia
    Iran_Neo
    MAR_EN
    Maykop
    Natufian
    WHG
    Yamnaya_RUS
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4062 0.03016186
    92,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    7,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4063 0.03005867
    89,2
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    10,8
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4064 0.03054454
    91,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    8,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4065 0.02933668
    85,8
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    14,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122 0.03482724
    88,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    12,0
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123 0.03204897
    77,6
    0,0
    0,0
    1,6
    2,4
    0,0
    9,2
    9,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124 0.03682332
    76,8
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    9,0
    14,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807 0.04110646
    89,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    3,4
    0,0
    7,0
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561 0.03634092
    67,4
    6,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    12,4
    13,6
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442 0.03899473
    81,4
    0,0
    0,0
    1,2
    1,2
    0,0
    7,6
    8,6
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11443 0.03095006
    49,4
    0,0
    0,0
    0,4
    0,0
    0,0
    8,6
    41,6
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe 0.05027567
    72,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,2
    22,6
    0,0
    5,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125 0.02619634
    76,6
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    15,2
    0,0
    8,0
    0,2
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109 0.03939586
    83,4
    0,0
    0,0
    1,0
    9,4
    0,0
    6,2
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878 0.02363986
    81,0
    0,0
    0,0
    1,8
    1,8
    0,0
    5,8
    9,6
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372 0.04711925
    81,0
    0,0
    0,0
    0,0
    11,6
    0,0
    7,4
    0,0
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876 0.03185393
    73,8
    0,0
    0,0
    1,0
    11,0
    0,0
    6,0
    8,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H 0.02219327
    52,8
    0,0
    1,8
    0,0
    15,6
    7,4
    0,8
    21,6
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H 0.03396469
    48,4
    0,0
    2,6
    0,0
    10,6
    12,8
    0,6
    25,0
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H 0.02012140
    44,6
    0,0
    4,8
    0,0
    19,8
    10,8
    4,0
    16,0
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H 0.02622899
    48,6
    0,0
    5,8
    0,0
    8,0
    8,6
    5,6
    23,4
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H 0.02486791
    47,4
    0,0
    6,0
    2,4
    14,4
    9,4
    3,6
    16,8
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H 0.02924797
    50,0
    0,0
    4,2
    2,2
    8,8
    8,6
    4,4
    21,8

    ************************************************** ***

    Target Distance
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    EHG_Karelia
    GEO_CHG
    Iran_Neo
    MAR_EN
    Natufian
    WHG
    Yamnaya_RUS
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4062 0.03016186
    92,6
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    7,4
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4063 0.03005867
    89,2
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    10,8
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4064 0.03054454
    91,6
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    8,4
    0
    ITA_Sicily_MN:I4065 0.02933668
    85,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    14,2
    0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122 0.03482724
    88
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    12
    0
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123 0.03187045
    78,4
    0
    0
    1,8
    1,4
    0
    9,4
    9
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124 0.03682332
    76,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    9
    14,2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807 0.04120160
    91
    0
    0,6
    0
    0
    0
    6,4
    2
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561 0.03634053
    67,4
    6,4
    0
    0
    0
    0
    12,4
    13,8
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442 0.03901785
    82
    0
    0
    0
    1,2
    0
    7,4
    9,4
    ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11443 0.03095006
    49,4
    0
    0
    0
    0,4
    0
    8,6
    41,6
    Beaker_Sicily_no_steppe 0.05084224
    80
    0
    13,4
    0,6
    0,2
    0
    4,2
    1,6
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125 0.02476793
    81,8
    0
    4,4
    4,6
    0
    0
    7,6
    1,6
    ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109 0.03981940
    87,2
    0
    1,8
    1,8
    0,8
    0
    5,2
    3,2
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876 0.03282856
    77,8
    0
    5,4
    0
    1
    0,4
    5
    10,4
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878 0.02364671
    81,6
    0
    0,6
    0,6
    1,8
    0
    5,8
    9,6
    ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372 0.04686058
    86
    0
    1,2
    0
    0
    0
    4,6
    8,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H 0.02305468
    57,8
    0
    7
    3,8
    0
    8,2
    0
    23,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H 0.03479737
    52,8
    0
    1,2
    6,2
    0
    12,6
    0
    27,2
    Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H 0.02260920
    51,4
    0
    7,8
    8,2
    0
    11,4
    3
    18,2
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H 0.02683218
    52
    0
    1,2
    8,4
    0
    8,4
    5
    25
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H 0.02621562
    52
    0
    5
    9
    1,8
    10,6
    3
    18,6
    Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H 0.02984338
    53,4
    0
    1,2
    6,8
    2
    9
    3,6
    24
    What if instead of Natufian you had a pre-Islamic era (with out Medieval era SSA) North African sample? Also, of course, there are no Greek colonization era samples.

    Have you done it for Calabria?
    Last edited by Angela; 20-06-20 at 13:12.

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    Shahmiri

    I know where Iran is. My point is that the Phoenician period you cited (1550 to 300) was not used in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper. In addition 2 points. First, with respect to Sicily it would be 1000-900 BC at the earliest that the Phoenicians set up trade routes/cities. Three principal Pheonician cities in Sicily are all in NW Sicily, Solunto, Mozia and Palermo. Second, the period you cited actually overlaps with the Carthaginians who while the successors of the earlier Phoenician colonies in Tunis would likely include some local Berbers in addition to the descendants of the original founders from the Levant (i.e. Phoenicians).

    Furthermore, as was mentioned before, Iran-Neolithic ancestry entered Sicily and likely other parts of the Italian Mainland well before the arrival of Steppe ancestry that Fernandes et al 2020 documented in the period circa 2500-2000 BC. As I noted in post 152 and 156, a working paper (pre-print is available) by VanDeLooschret et al 2020 documents the arrival of Iran-Neolithic ancestry into Sicily 3,500 years before the period of the samples in Fernandes et al 2020, which is when Steppe type ancestry arrived in Sicily.

    So my post clearly indicating that Iran-Neolithic ancestry was into Sicily well before the "Steppe Herders" who are the favorite ancient group for some people on these genetics forums and youtube video comment sections out there. So I am not sure what you are suggesting I am arguing against. Most of the people here of Italian ancestry have read the Antonio et al 2019 paper on Ancient Romans, which documents Iran-Neolithic ancestry in Lazio, the Raveane et al 2019 paper (which is cited in this thread), documenting Iran-Neolithic in all Italian Southern Regions (Sicily included), the Fernandes et al 2020 paper documents it and this new pre-print working paper that I referenced in post #152 and #156 by VandeLooschret et al 2020 (which has Krause and Haak on it) documents it as far back as circa 6,700 BC.

    Respectfully, I am not sure what you are trying to argue or say.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 19-06-20 at 18:57. Reason: additional information

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Is that really true? I would imagine Caucasian ancestry has made a bigger impact in the most densely populated parts of the country. Obviously modern Iranians aren't perfect representations of the earliest Iranians due to Anatolia_N ancestry. I believe Iran_N ancestry actually peaks in Pakistan.
    Many Kurds have posted their DNA tests on you tube. As you know Kurds are an Iranic people stock and they report on average from 10 to 12% South Asian ancestry which is India, Pakistan. So my guess is Iran should have higher percentage of south Asian ancestry due to its proximity and trade and cultural exchanges. Its not hard to see in Iranian phenotype south Asian ancestry

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    Country: Iran



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Obviously, the Iranian related ancestry discussed in the papers is based on ANCIENT samples from the Iranian Neolithic for example, or it's based on Anatolian Chalcolithic or Anatolian Bronze Age samples. Who says any different?

    All Jovialis was CLEARLY saying is that modern Iranians have changed since then, which is obvious. It's not MODERN Iranian related genetics that is showing up in Southeast Europe.

    Try reading more carefully before shooting off a post.
    Iran is a just a land in the West Asia where different people in different period lived there, it is certainly possible that people who live too far from Iran have more Iranian-related ancestry than modern Iranians, because there were several migrations from and to Iran in the last thousands years.
    As I said It absolutely doesn't matter who modern Iranians are and what their culture and language is, because we are talking about the people who lived in this land some thousands years ago, you can assume that 4,000 years ago all people who lived in this land migrated to another land and other people came there.
    Whether through Anatolia or Levant, less than 4,000 years ago some people from Iran migrated to the Aegean and other parts of Europe, look at Lazaridis et al, Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, which clearly mentions this thing, so we already talk about this Iranian-related people that I believe they were Indo-Europeans, what is its problem?

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