Sicilians pre-Greek colonization

It breaks up ancestry in just three parts: LBK, Loschbour and Yamnaya. I wonder if the SW tries to fit all DNA in these categorizations or if it ignores the part that doesn't fit well in them.

Curiously, here Bergamo have more Loschbour than both Spanish and Spanish_North, however, Spanish_North has more Yamnaya than Bergamo.

From memory, Lazaridis said that Spanish_North is the Spanish Basque, but I may be wrong.

Anyway, Raveane has their own charts.

If they're correct, it seems to very much depend on the specific area, whereas I was generalizing.

I0KvEf7.png



OTbCA4N.png


Anyone have their list handy for the specific areas in "Western" Europe and Italy which correspond to the numbers?
 
Ok thanks for the clarification. I agree, nor should you take it kindly. It seems you and I both were being potentially viewed through the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations.

.... they need better political lenses, ... in 1943 / ‘44 the Capital of Italy was in Puglia / Salento (Brindisi) ... can’t get more Italian than that ... :)
 
From memory, Lazaridis said that Spanish_North is the Spanish Basque, but I may be wrong.

Anyway, Raveane has their own charts.

If they're correct, it seems to very much depend on the specific area, whereas I was generalizing.

I0KvEf7.png



OTbCA4N.png


Anyone have their list handy for the specific areas in "Western" Europe and Italy which correspond to the numbers?
Interesting. Thanks.
I guess Spanish_North is not Basque, because Basque is also listed in that Chart. As in Haak et al., Basque scores higher Loschbour and lower Yamnaya in that model based on G25.

@Duarte
It's just a specific model comparing Iberians and North Italians, based on the same few components used by Haak et al. Nothing more.
 
Ditto for me. Loschbour "encripted" :)

100097367_673812550078130_8195462526129930240_n.png
 
.... they need better political lenses, ... in 1943 / ‘44 the Capital of Italy was in Salento (Brindisi) ... can’t get more Italian than that ... :)

Well said! Brindisi is a city I would like to Visit. On another note, have you ever been to that area and cave in Puglia where that ancient Neanderthal Altamura Man is located? I keep hoping they are going to report his sequenced DNA and I periodically look for any new research papers on him that I can find.
 
Interesting. Thanks.
I guess Spanish_North is not Basque, because Basque is also listed in that Chart. As in Haak et al., Basque scores higher Loschbour and lower Yamnaya in that model based on G25.

As I said, my recollection is that Lazaridis said Basque means French Basque, and North Spain means Pais Vasco.

However, I can't find it in my files, so take it fwiw.
 
As I said, my recollection is that Lazaridis said Basque means French Basque, and North Spain means Pais Vasco.
Ops. Sorry. I missed that part. Indeed, in G25 French Basque score slightly more Yamnaya than Spanish Basque, slightly less LBK and virtually the same Loschbour.
 
Interesting. Thanks.
I guess Spanish_North is not Basque, because Basque is also listed in that Chart. As in Haak et al., Basque scores higher Loschbour and lower Yamnaya in that model based on G25.

@Duarte
It's just a specific model comparing Iberians and North Italians, based on the same few components used by Haak et al. Nothing more.

How many more do you need? Basically, absent a bit of Siberian like in north eastern Europe and North African like in Southern Europe, all Europeans are still a mixture of those three components.

If you want to see how it looks with those kinds of minority admixtures, Raveane has done it, and has included Anatolian Bronze Age as well.

See upthread.
 
Well said! Brindisi is a city I would like to Visit. On another note, have you ever been to that area and cave in Puglia where that ancient Neanderthal Altamura Man is located? I keep hoping they are going to report his sequenced DNA and I periodically look for any new research papers on him that I can find.
... not yet, ... I think that Neanderthal is a paesano of Jovialis, :unsure: lol (... really) :grin:

Skeleton Found in Italy Cave Yields Oldest Neanderthal DNA

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/sci...ly-cave-yields-oldest-neanderthal-dna-n339661

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...om-Neanderthal?p=563134&viewfull=1#post563134

Altamura Man

338F8A0300000578-0-image-a-2_1461779277660.jpg


150410-neanderthal-altamura-man_8ca4b4fc3838f2679ea30d7e30cd47be.fit-760w.jpg
 
How many more do you need? Basically, absent a bit of Siberian like in north eastern Europe and North African like in Southern Europe, all Europeans are still a mixture of those three components.

If you want to see how it looks with those kinds of minority admixtures, Raveane has done it, and has included Anatolian Bronze Age as well.

See upthread.
I'll explain it. It started when my fellow Duarte thought you've said that Iberians are poor in Yamnaya ancestry. At the end, he pointed out that Iberians are below average, supporting the first statement, I believe. Ok. No problem. I just answered that that was just a comparison between two groups (Iberians and North Italians), using three components only, so in my opinion it doesn't evidence Iberians are "poor" in Yamnaya-like ancestry, or Steppe.
And I said above "three components only" because I wonder where some other components would fit in this model. An example woud be our extra-CHG. Is it considered "LBK-like" in this model specifically? Or "Yamnaya-like"?

The CHG from Georgia is way older even than Loschbour. Still, when I add it, it seems to affect some North Italian pops (slightly reducing distance, naturally), and "eat" more of Yamnaya than LBK. My bet is that I myself would score some CHG in this model (I don't have my coordinates).

P3Y6Ymy.jpg
 
Salento: Ok, as for who is the "vicino cugino", I will stay out of that one.!!
 
Salento: Ok, as for who is the "vicino cugino", I will stay out of that one.!!

It’s really cool that a Neanderthal so old was found in Altamura, ... if there was one, there were definitely others all around Puglia and Southern Italy for thousands of years ... I think.
 
It’s really cool that a Neanderthal so old was found in Altamura, ... if there was one, there were definitely others all around Puglia and Southern Italy for thousands of years ... I think.

I agree 100%. My next trip to Italy, I am considering putting that area on my to do list just to hopefully see it if that is possible. Although I would think you would only be able to see it from a distance, at least I hope, and the site is protected by the Polizia or some other law enforcement agency.
 
Ok thanks for the clarification. I agree, nor should you take it kindly. It seems you and I both were being potentially viewed through the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations.

In this discussion who, pray tell, is looking at Southern Italians through "the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations."

We don't need new members coming here and sowing dissension between posters. It's a collegial, respectful, group here now by and large, and we don't need these kinds of innuendos being tossed around.

If you or anyone else things there is t-rolling going on, please inform. Whoever it is will be dealt with if I find that is indeed what's going on.
 
I'll explain it. It started when my fellow Duarte thought you've said that Iberians are poor in Yamnaya ancestry. At the end, he pointed out that Iberians are below average, supporting the first statement, I believe. Ok. No problem. I just answered that that was just a comparison between two groups (Iberians and North Italians), using three components only, so in my opinion it doesn't evidence Iberians are "poor" in Yamnaya-like ancestry, or Steppe.
And I said above "three components only" because I wonder where some other components would fit in this model. An example woud be our extra-CHG. Is it considered "LBK-like" in this model specifically? Or "Yamnaya-like"?

The CHG from Georgia is way older even than Loschbour. Still, when I add it, it seems to affect some North Italian pops (slightly reducing distance, naturally), and "eat" more of Yamnaya than LBK. My bet is that I myself would score some CHG in this model (I don't have my coordinates).

P3Y6Ymy.jpg

I'd hardly choose G25 over academic analyses, but I'll leave that aside. (For one thing, I think those steppe numbers are inflated which they are in anything Eurogenes produces.)

In general terms, and going by the analyses we've posted here, Iberians have, on average, a bit more WHG, and North Italians/Tuscans a bit more steppe. However, there are regional differences. Could we agree on that?

It's not much of a difference imo, but it's there.

Again, does anyone have a list of what the bar numbers in Raveane represent in terms of specific areas in Spain and Italy? Just direct me to the section of the paper or Supplement. Thanks in advance.
 
In this discussion who, pray tell, is looking at Southern Italians through "the "mezzo giorno" lens and with all its political connotations.

We don't need new members coming here and sowing dissension between posters. It's a collegial, respectful, group here now by and large, and we don't need these kinds of innuendos being tossed around.

Angela: I am not trying to sow dissension with anyone. For me personally, the "You don't know if your a Norman or Phoenician" comment by a certain poster, who I have always tried to be cordial with, was to me a swipe at Southern Italy in general and Sicily in particular or perhaps more to the point "me directly" with perhaps political connotations. I could be wrong maybe there are no political connotations but what the heck is the point in saying that? Perhaps there was another way to interpret it then Ok. Not that it hurt my feelings mine you, my ancestors arrived in the USA through one of the Southern USA ports of entry and then we settled in areas not where you find the majority of Americans of Italian ancestry, although we did well like everyone else did.

So lets say I put up with more nonsense that say Italian immigrant communities who settled lets say in Philly, Boston or NYC, not that they did not put up with issues, but those areas were largely insulated given the large ethnic neighborhoods in those cities. Perhaps and overreaction on my part to it but it does have some political connotations. Lets say it was not You, not Stuvane, not Regio X.

It was not directed at everyone whose ancestors are from North of Rome, nor I am I one of these Diaspora Italians who thinks Italian Re-unification in the 19th century was a bad thing. There were problems yes, but the French ruling from afar did nothing for the regions South of Rome so long-term re-unification was a plus for the South.

So I apologize to anyone who took it as a broad brush statement, it was not, it has a specific poster in mind.
 
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I'd hardly choose G25 over academic analyses, but I'll leave that aside. (For one thing, I think those steppe numbers are inflated which they are in anything Eurogenes produces.)

In general terms, and going by the analyses we've posted here, Iberians have, on average, a bit more WHG, and North Italians/Tuscans a bit more steppe. However, there are regional differences. Could we agree on that?

It's not much of a difference imo, but it's there.

Again, does anyone have a list of what the bar numbers in Raveane represent in terms of specific areas in Spain and Italy? Just direct me to the section of the paper or Supplement. Thanks in advance.

Try these academic papers Angela. I believe you will find in them the information you are looking for.

Cheers :)

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/08/30/5.9.eaaw3492.DC1
 
^^Indeed, that's where the admixture charts in my post #121 come from. :)
 

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