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Thread: Kinship, acquired and inherited status, and population structure at the Early Bronze

  1. #26
    Regular Member Duarte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Kinship, acquired and inherited status, and population structure at the Early Bronze Age Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia.
    Aleksandra Zegarac, Laura Winkelbach, Jens Bloecher, Yoan Diekmann, Marija Kreckovic Gavrilovic, Marko Porcic, Biljana Stojkovic, Lidija Milasinovic, Mona Schreiber, Daniel Wegmann, Krishna R Veeramah, Sofija Stefanovic, Joachim Burger
    doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.05.18.101337
    This article is a preprint and has not been certified by peer review [what does this mean?].
    AbstractInfo/HistoryMetrics Preview PDF
    Abstract
    Twenty-four ancient genomes with an average sequencing coverage of 0.85 were produced from the Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in Serbia, to provide unambiguous identification of biological sex, population structure, and genetic kinship between individuals. Of the 24 investigated individuals, 15 were involved in kinship relationships of varying degrees, including 3 parent-offspring relationships. All observed parent-offspring pairs were mother and son. In addition to the absence of biological daughters, we observed a number of young women and girls with no biological relatives in our sample. These observations, together with the high mitochondrial diversity in our sample, are consistent with the practice of female exogamy in the population served by Mokrin. However, moderate-to-high Y-chromosomal diversity suggests a degree of male mobility greater than that expected under strict patrilocality. Individual status differences at Mokrin, as indicated by grave goods, support the inference that females could inherit status, but could not transmit status to all their sons. The case of a son whose grave good richness outstrips that of his biological mother suggests that sons had the possibility to acquire status during their lifetimes. The Mokrin sample resembles a genetically unstructured population, suggesting that the social hierarchies of the community were not accompanied by strict marriage barriers.
    ( r1b , I2 , j2b , bt)
    mt haplogr. Y haplogr.
    122E XY 6-9 1.09 U5a2b1a I2a1b
    122S XX 35-50 0.78 H32 *
    161 XX 9-11 1.20 H80 *
    163 XY 45-55 1.21 U4a2 J2b
    181 XX >18 0.62 U4a2 *
    186 XX 8-11 0.33 H1aj *
    211 XY 50-55 0.79 U5a2b1a I2a1b
    220 XY 15-25 0.64 T2b11 R1b1a2a2c1
    223 XX 7-10 0.39 U3a1 *
    224 XX 25-40 0.77 T2b *
    225 XY 25-35 0.82 J1b1a1 R1b1a2a2c1
    228 XX 35-50 0.95 J1c *
    237 XX 15-20 0.89 T2b *
    243 XY 20-35 1.12 H BT
    246 XX 45-50 0.98 H80 *
    247 XX 10-12 0.90 H1 *
    257 A XX 40-60 0.60 H *
    257 B XY inf.I 0.61 K1a4 R1b1a2a2c1a1
    260 XY 15-18 0.92 J1c I2a2a1a2a2
    282 XY 15-20 1.41 H2b BT
    287 XX 20-35 0.81 U5b2a2c *
    288 XX 60+ 0.81 HV0e *
    295 XY 15-20 0.82 H80 I2a1a
    302 XX 20-35 0.89 J1c *
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Thank you KingJohn. It’s at least curious that MTA - MyTrueAncestry, give-me 13 matches from Mokrin among the 125 ancient matches displayed by them to me, with distances that vary from 10.95 to 15.04


    16. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.95 - MOK10
    Top
    96 %
    match vs all users

    23. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.43 - MOK29
    Top
    94 %
    match vs all users

    25. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.45 - MOK27
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users

    42. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 12.28 - MOK20
    Top
    94 %
    match vs all users

    58. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 12.99 - MOK26
    Top
    97 %
    match vs all users

    75. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.53 - MOK15
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users

    79. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.6 - MOK25
    Top
    96 %
    match vs all users

    85. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 13.95 - MOK21
    Top
    48 %
    match vs all users

    97. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.49 - MOK18
    Top
    97 %
    match vs all users

    105. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 14.99 - MOK17
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users

    108. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 15.04 - MOK14
    Top
    76 %
    match vs all users

    109. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 15.04 - MOK13
    Top
    76 %
    match vs all users

    110. Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia
    1950 BC - Genetic Distance: 15.04 - MOK33b
    Top
    76 %
    match vs all users





    94 %

    98 %

    48 %

    76 %

    76 %

  2. #27
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
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    Does anybody know how much Steppe present-day Serbs score? The BA ones scored a similar level of Steppe admixture as modern Northern Italians

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Does anybody know how much Steppe present-day Serbs score? The BA ones scored a similar level of Steppe admixture as modern Northern Italians
    i assume modern serbs have a little bit higher steppe ( maybe because slavic invasion)
    but i might be wrong here ....

    from the paper :





    p.s
    by the way i will keep this papers coming as long as anthrogenica do so
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

  4. #29
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    This is hype!

    Interesting that out of 8 Y samples. Only 3 were buried with weapons. And two of them are in their 50s.
    This could be due to some sort of meritocracy, long life more chance to gain material goods (most likely explanation), as the other Y-s are generally young and with not much grave goods except 122E who could be somehow related to the high status 211.

    Edit: Another explanation could be there was not much militaristic need. We see quite a diverse non homogeneous population as far as DNA goes. Maybe life back then was not as bloody as one might think.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  5. #30
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    The Iron Gates HGs still formed a significant percentage of their ancestry.

    Interesting that I2a1 was already there; came to the area way before the Slavs, apparently, yes?

    More steppe than in Bronze Age Italy and certainly than in Bronze Age Greece. Easier access I suppose.

    Certainly no R1a yet, so perhaps only arrived with Slavs.

    That also means Corded Ware probably didn't go south, so not responsible for Indo-Europeanization in Greece either. So much for some of the "analyses". Indo-Europeanization was from R1b people perhaps, although there's not very much in modern Greece.

    I too would be interested to see the break down for modern Serbs.

    They're probably somewhere in between Croatians and Bulgarians I would guess, maybe leaning more toward Croatians?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Iron Gates HGs still formed a significant percentage of their ancestry.

    Interesting that I2a1 was already there; came to the area way before the Slavs, apparently, yes?

    More steppe than in Bronze Age Italy and certainly than in Bronze Age Greece. Easier access I suppose.

    Certainly no R1a yet, so perhaps only arrived with Slavs.

    That also means Corded Ware probably didn't go south, so not responsible for Indo-Europeanization in Greece either. So much for some of the "analyses". Indo-Europeanization was from R1b people perhaps, although there's not very much in modern Greece.

    I too would be interested to see the break down for modern Serbs.

    They're probably somewhere in between Croatians and Bulgarians I would guess, maybe leaning more toward Croatians?
    Similar to my thoughts so far. The presence of J2B2 along with the R1B makes me also think that L283 might have been incorporated somewhere out of Europe during the IE expansions, and came to Europe already as Indo Europeans, or possibly there was an older proto IE connection of the two.

    The thing that surprises me the most is the BT haplogroup. :O Isn't that an upstream clade of the out of Africa expansion. What could this mean?


  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Similar to my thoughts so far. The presence of J2B2 along with the R1B makes me also think that L283 might have been incorporated somewhere out of Europe during the IE expansions, and came to Europe already as Indo Europeans, or possibly there was an older proto IE connection of the two.

    The thing that surprises me the most is the BT haplogroup. :O Isn't that an upstream clade of the out of Africa expansion. What could this mean?

    Or it was incorporated somewhere like Cucuteni or Globular Amphora or near modern day Moldova. We'll have to wait and see.

    Yes, that's an odd y Dna to show up, but the odd European will show up with "C" too. There are some rare cases of survival from the Paleolithic.

    It happens with mtDna as well. I'm U2e2. We're almost all gone, but occasionally a modern person will show up with it.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Or it was incorporated somewhere like Cucuteni or Globular Amphora or near modern day Moldova. We'll have to wait and see.

    Yes, that's an odd y Dna to show up, but the odd European will show up with "C" too. There are some rare cases of survival from the Paleolithic.

    It happens with mtDna as well. I'm U2e2. We're almost all gone, but occasionally a modern person will show up with it.
    Yes. Moldova makes sense too. Depends on the exact branch and the exact time period if some rumors are true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Comments from Davidski over at Eurogenes seem to indicate there is another ancient L283 (Eneolithic) in the pipeline from the Romania/Moldova border. Very interesting if true.


    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...-19-world.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Interesting that I2a1 was already there; came to the area way before the Slavs, apparently, yes?
    What you just wrote is like when there would be 10000 years old ancient R1 found in Western Europe, it would be a reason to assume presence of R1b in Western Europe since 10000 years ago.

    So superficial...

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Or it was incorporated somewhere like Cucuteni or Globular Amphora or near modern day Moldova. We'll have to wait and see.

    Yes, that's an odd y Dna to show up, but the odd European will show up with "C" too. There are some rare cases of survival from the Paleolithic.

    It happens with mtDna as well. I'm U2e2. We're almost all gone, but occasionally a modern person will show up with it.
    Y-DNA BT is rare or non-existent even on Africa.

    On higher re solution they might be either Y-DNA C1a2 or E-V13, as usually they refuse or turn a blind-eye when it comes to E-M78, like they refused to correct Ramsess III Y-DNA mistake and assign it to E-M78.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Y-DNA BT is rare or non-existent even on Africa.

    On higher re solution they might be either Y-DNA C1a2 or E-V13, as usually they refuse or turn a blind-eye when it comes to E-M78, like they refused to correct Ramsess III Y-DNA mistake and assign it to E-M78.
    It is annoying that in the year 2021 they can't anlayse those 2 farther than BT
    E-v13 is a logical option ...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    It is annoying that in the year 2021 they can't anlayse those 2 farther than BT
    E-v13 is a logical option ...
    Technically if they are low-re solution J, G, H, P, I are as equal option as E-V13 because all of these are under BT. There is zero chance those two samples are actual BT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Technically if they are low-re solution J, G, H, P, I are as equal option as E-V13 because all of these are under BT. There is zero chance those two samples are actual BT.
    maybe some expert will be able to read something more derived
    when he will read the bam file of those 2

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Technically if they are low-re solution J, G, H, P, I are as equal option as E-V13 because all of these are under BT. There is zero chance those two samples are actual BT.
    It was really strange that they found no E but instead BT.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    It was really strange that they found no E but instead BT.
    BT is just low-r****ution, they couldn't go down the tree because of poor DNA sample?

    I highly doubt any individual bearing Y-DNA BT which is hypothetical ancestor of Y-DNA E,D, C, F will live in Europe.

  16. #41
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    j2b dude MOK15 was uploaded to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    j2b dude MOK15 was uploaded to yfull
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/
    Indeed, a couple of months ago all the European ancient samples were uploaded to the J2B tree.



    One of them is really peculiar, look at basal L283, they put ORC007 (Nuragic sample) under that branch. However, because its low coverage and potentially positive for some downstream SNPs it does not belong there. Some L283 admins contacted YFull to see why that is a case and asked for the justification, so far it seems like a mistake. But who knows.

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    Davidski leaked this:
    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Davidski leaked this:
    The context?

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Davidski leaked this:

    yes
    i now saw that would be cool

    A said...Is this the Greek paper you mentioned a while ago, or is there another one coming out?
    May 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM

    Davidski said...There's at least one more paper coming soon about Greece or the Balkans and Greece, with samples from the Iron Age, Classical period, Middle Ages, etc.


    Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

    This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    yes
    i now saw that would be cool

    A said...Is this the Greek paper you mentioned a while ago, or is there another one coming out?
    May 14, 2021 at 4:19 AM

    Davidski said...There's at least one more paper coming soon about Greece or the Balkans and Greece, with samples from the Iron Age, Classical period, Middle Ages, etc.


    Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

    This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.
    Can't wait. Hope it does not take more than 1-2 years, like the other leaked papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Davidski leaked this: But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.

    It would be for the umpteenth time the discovery of hot water. It is obvious that a civilization such as the Greek one, which was able to expand and cover a territory that went from Anatolia to North Africa and the Spanish and French coasts, was genetically a non-homogenous population.

    The typical error of these amateur bloggers passionate about genetics, who some users, with great naivety, consider professionals, is that they lack the most basic historical and archaeological knowledge. Even geneticists have often insufficient historical, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological knowledge, let alone amateur bloggers.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post

    Davidski said...Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

    This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.



    Davidski is saying this because of the presumed Slavic migration story in Greece. He is angry at geneticists who don't give a damn about this story, as if the whole world should revolve around the Slavs.


    When people stop being interested in ancient history only because of personal issues concerning their own identity, it will always be too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It would be for the umpteenth time the discovery of hot water. It is obvious that a civilization such as the Greek one, which was able to expand and cover a territory that went from Anatolia to North Africa and the Spanish and French coasts, was genetically a non-homogenous population.

    The typical error of these amateur bloggers passionate about genetics, who some users, with great naivety, consider professionals, is that they lack the most basic historical and archaeological knowledge. Even geneticists have often insufficient historical, archaeological, linguistic and anthropological knowledge, let alone amateur bloggers.




    Davidski is saying this because of the presumed Slavic migration story in Greece. He is angry at geneticists who don't give a damn about this story, as if the whole world should revolve around the Slavs.


    When people stop being interested in ancient history only because of personal issues concerning their own identity, it will always be too late.

    Since I'm neither Greek nor Slavic, I don't have a dog in a fight. However, I'm very much interested in Ancient Greeks and Romans since they've shaped the European heritage and had an impressive history. Hence, I look forward to samples from Classical Greece and I'm curious to find out whom they are closest to.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Code:
    MOK9B,0,0,0.03,0,34.91,41.38,0.62,2.15,1.33,0.59,18.99,0
    MOK10B,2.9,0,0,0.12,37.97,30.7,0.07,0,11.34,0.29,15.86,0.75
    MOK12,0,0.78,3.05,0,39.46,34.27,0,0.04,2.67,0,19.64,0.09
    MOK13,1.81,0,0.45,0,39.16,29.14,0.85,0.01,5.53,0,22.58,0.47
    MOK14,3.79,0.7,3.3,0,37.97,33.85,0,0,3.07,0,17.16,0.14
    MOK15,2.94,0,1.57,0,38.53,35.15,0,0.09,6.33,0,14.98,0.4
    MOK16A,2.09,0,1.51,0,37.51,41.07,0.71,0,2.36,0,14.46,0.29
    MOK17A,3.36,0,1.65,0.31,36.89,19.28,1.59,1.28,7.87,0,27.77,0
    MOK18A,0.01,0,2.97,0.74,38.6,30.24,0.64,0,3.08,0,22.3,1.42
    MOK19A,0.17,0,1.55,0.73,35.22,44.82,0,0,2.14,0.06,14.62,0.7
    MOK20,2.95,0,0.82,0,37.08,34.18,1.15,0,5.41,0,17.71,0.69
    MOK21A,0,0,1.45,0,36.38,48.33,0,0,0.16,0,13.07,0.62
    MOK22,0,0,0.53,0.94,37.66,49.11,1.45,0,1.9,0,7.81,0.59
    MOK23,0.85,0.55,1.15,0.04,34.58,49.86,0.04,0,3.16,0.31,8.53,0.93
    MOK24A,1.88,0,0.88,0,38.46,36.91,2.31,0,5.47,0,13.82,0.28
    MOK25A,1.39,0.43,0,0.14,40.33,37,0,0,4.04,0.55,15.22,0.89
    MOK26A,3.08,0,0.41,1.87,40.71,29.78,0,0,6.35,0,17.22,0.58
    MOK27,0,1.05,0,0.13,38.38,32.27,0.34,0,7.32,0,20.51,0
    MOK28A,1,0.03,1.17,0.51,36.23,45.39,0,0,3.48,0,11.31,0.87
    MOK29A,5.26,0.6,1.21,0,41.01,30.6,0.03,0,2.48,0,18.66,0.15
    MOK30,4.32,0,0.09,0,39.17,45.76,0.3,0,2.73,0.6,6.03,0.99
    MOK31,0.37,1.72,1.69,0,38.81,24.37,0,0,7.79,0,24.86,0.4
    MOK32,3.91,0,2.12,0,35.47,33.15,0,0,7.66,0,17.19,0.5
    MOK33,18.53,3.96,0,2.64,43.61,26.92,0,0,4.35,0,0,0
    Here are the samples for this paper.

  25. #50
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    Distance to: Jovialis
    10.74864643 MOK17A
    16.31440774 MOK31
    19.85563900 MOK13
    21.57664015 MOK18A
    22.90904625 MOK27
    22.99284236 MOK32
    23.45421071 MOK26A
    23.51066992 MOK29A
    23.51083580 MOK10B
    24.50256109 MOK20
    25.09657347 MOK14
    25.75641668 MOK12
    27.03900701 MOK15
    29.38907110 MOK24A
    29.64236327 MOK25A
    30.56213343 MOK9B
    32.11255206 MOK16A
    34.90534486 MOK19A
    36.82939994 MOK28A
    38.20334409 MOK33
    39.12751078 MOK21A
    40.56357110 MOK30
    41.65608479 MOK23
    42.42588243 MOK22

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