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Thread: Genomic Diversity in Italy

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    Ailchu: I am not for open borders anywhere. I have stated that numerous times on the political forums on this site. People crashing borders and demanding legal status in countries not their own is not something I am for. Period. Yes, I understand I am part of the Italian-diaspora, the large number of Italian immigrants that left Italy between 1880 and 1920, mostly from the South of Rome and Sicily, but "all of my Ancestors, again ALL" immigrated through "legal ports of entry in the USA" and have the appropriate documentation as to who they are and where they were from. Nobody left Italy and went to Canada or Mexico and crashed the border. Doing my own research, I have all the ship manifest that documents when my great-grandparents arrived in the USA that were "Required to be given to USA Port and Immigration officials". I am not for open borders that allows migrants to come in to a country and those migrants and immigrants demand the host country conform its culture and history and traditions to the newcomers, often from cultures that are fundamentally different than the country that they illegally immigrate to. None of my ancestors came here and demanded the USA conform its culture to the culture of Sicily and Southern Italy, which would include religion as well. Most Italian immigrants lived in their tight ethnic neighborhoods and kept their family, ethnic, and religious customs that they brought over from the regions they immigrated from but they did not expect nor demand the USA conform its culture to them. They kept their cultural traditions but in the secular world, they integrated and adapted to the broader USA political, social, and economic, legal, etc culture.

    I have been through this with you before. I am not for the EU/NGO/UN policies of immigration and migrants nor am I for similar policies in the USA. Period, end of discussion. You want to immigrate to a country or culture not your own, you go through the legal process and legally immigrant, etc, just as what my ancestors did when they immigrated here.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 26-05-20 at 18:40. Reason: Shop manifest in OP should have been "Ship"

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    @Palermo i didn't want to discuss immigration, i asked why you think that the used terminology in this paper is EU/NGO/open border ideology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    @Palermo i didn't want to discuss immigration, i asked why you think that the used terminology in this paper is EU/NGO/open border ideology.
    Ailchu: I think some of the authors when words in the text had some political leanings. That is of course my opinion and I am not saying it is reality. Some of the samples they used for comparison purposes to the ancient Italians could have been better done. Some of the authors in quotes to Science news magazines I think made statements that reflected lets say political leanings consistent with EU/NGO/UN open border policies. Again, reading quotes from the authors like "Moots", and others (most of these are American Academics quoted in the article) the language they use to me indicates political leanings. I don't see what they see in the data, that is this huge turnover in population that these select set of authors find. I see the ancient Romans in the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper pretty much clustering between Northern Italy, along with Southern France to Southern Iberia with I think 8 of the 11 Iron Age samples and Southern Italy, with shifts between those 2 points. I don't see in the data ancient Romans ever being shifted anywhere but pretty much along what is modern Italy.

    https://www.genengnews.com/news/dna-...mediterranean/

    This article has a segment on "Migration is nothing new" and then goes into a discussion about that, etc.

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...romans-0012832


    I think there are some authors engaging what in Theological Scholarship is Eisegesis vs. Exegesis, The former being where one has pre-conceived positions and then reads into the text, in the case of Theological scholarship, or in this case reading into the DNA data notions that fit your modern Political leanings. Some of the authors it is my view engaged in Eisegesis although I think there were enough different authors on the paper that it did not go to far to what the likes of Moots wanted to say and Pritchard.

    And for the record, I like the Antonio et al 2019 paper, I think overall it was pretty good but some of the text (hmmm) and some of the samples used for comparison purposes (hmm) but more so some of the authors (not all of them not even a majority of them] own quotes to the Scientific press are what caused me to tie in EU/NGO/UN Open border political leanings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yours makes it look like "Central" Italy begins in southern Toscana and goes to the border of Campania? That might be pretty accurate.

    It was Novembre et al, in first talking about genetic "breaks" in Europe, which said there was a pronounced break at the Alps, and a smaller one "just south of Rome". So, in this two part bifurcation, it's just about where the originally Campanian areas of Lazio are located?

    The difficulty with all of this is the population of Lazio itself. In relatively recent times (I don't mean post 1950) wasn't there a very large migration from the Abruzzi into Lazio? That's in addition to the incorporation of former areas of Campania.

    All that complicates our understanding of the more ancient borders.

    "Central Italy" might have become more "southern" relatively recently.

    I wish we had more samples from Umbria. That might clarify matters. Are they more like Tuscans or more like Lazio?

    The one thing that is clear is that Toscana is more related to northern Italy, and I think that increases the more north in Toscana you go. At the end, I don't think there's probably much difference between some Tuscans and some Romagnoli.
    I think there may have been at least some southern Italian-like people in Central Italy, since at least the Iron Age, with samples like R437, and R850. But It probably really ramped up from Medieval times, with samples seen in Villa Magna.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yours makes it look like "Central" Italy begins in southern Toscana and goes to the border of Campania? That might be pretty accurate.

    It was Novembre et al, in first talking about genetic "breaks" in Europe, which said there was a pronounced break at the Alps, and a smaller one "just south of Rome". So, in this two part bifurcation, it's just about where the originally Campanian areas of Lazio are located?

    The difficulty with all of this is the population of Lazio itself. In relatively recent times (I don't mean post 1950) wasn't there a very large migration from the Abruzzi into Lazio? That's in addition to the incorporation of former areas of Campania.

    All that complicates our understanding of the more ancient borders.

    "Central Italy" might have become more "southern" relatively recently.

    I wish we had more samples from Umbria. That might clarify matters. Are they more like Tuscans or more like Lazio?

    The one thing that is clear is that Toscana is more related to northern Italy, and I think that increases the more north in Toscana you go. At the end, I don't think there's probably much difference between some Tuscans and some Romagnoli.
    After all these studies, I think it's evident at this point that Tuscans are very close to North Italians, indeed.
    Dodecad K12b seems to work well for my parents and I. TSI/Tuscan is presented here as our second pop, after N_Italian (there is this O_Italian in between, but apparently it's not that informative).
    Btw, the similarity map is fine. As we discussed in other threads, it just has a big problem with Sardinians (West Med in the calculator) and Basques, due to drift and correspondence between clusters and references.

    Concerning Alps, recently I noticed that a far match of my mother, an old woman with all 4 grandparents from San Vito di Cadore-BL, have virtually the same results. So even those people from far North in Veneto are not so different.

    I didn't know all these peculiarities about Lazio. Very interesting.

    As for Umbria, even Ethnopedia was trying hard to get more results from there. Apparently the region is the most underrepresented in Italy when it comes to genetics. I'm also curious about it.

    ED: Still regarding the genetic distance table, I wonder if "aos" has some issue, since it's getting too low values to other pops. It'd be interesting to see more recent tables involving these statistics (including shared IBD segments) for Euro pops.

    @Jovialis
    I think the impact of South Italian-like was relevant even in North Italy (with Romans), and in other parts of Europe to a lesser extent.
    Last edited by Regio X; 25-05-20 at 16:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Ailchu: I think some of the authors when words in the text had some political leanings. That is of course my opinion and I am not saying it is reality. Some of the samples they used for comparison purposes to the ancient Italians could have been better done. Some of the authors in quotes to Science news magazines I think made statements that reflected lets say political leanings consistent with EU/NGO/UN open border policies. Again, reading quotes from the authors like "Moots", and others (most of these are American Academics quoted in the article) the language they use to me indicates political leanings. I don't see what they see in the data, that is this huge turnover in population that these select set of authors find. I see the ancient Romans in the Antonio/Moots et al 2019 paper pretty much clustering between Northern Italy, along with Southern France to Southern Iberia with I think 8 of the 11 Iron Age samples and Southern Italy, with shifts between those 2 points. I don't see in the data ancient Romans ever being shifted anywhere but pretty much along what is modern Italy.

    https://www.genengnews.com/news/dna-...mediterranean/

    This article has a segment on "Migration is nothing new" and then goes into a discussion about that, etc.

    https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...romans-0012832


    I think there are some authors engaging what in Theological Scholarship is Eisegesis vs. Exegesis, The former being where one has pre-conceived positions and then reads into the text, in the case of Theological scholarship, or in this case reading into the DNA data notions that fit your modern Political leanings. Some of the authors it is my view engaged in Eisegesis although I think there were enough different authors on the paper that it did not go to far to what the likes of Moots wanted to say and Pritchard.

    And for the record, I like the Antonio et al 2019 paper, I think overall it was pretty good but some of the text (hmmm) and some of the samples used for comparison purposes (hmm) but more so some of the authors (not all of them not even a majority of them] own quotes to the Scientific press are what caused me to tie in EU/NGO/UN Open border political leanings.
    you still couldn't explain why exactly the used terminology here should be indicating EU/NGO/open border ideology for you. about Pritchards words, migration really is nothing new, it always happened. we didn't need the moots paper about rome to know this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    you still couldn't explain why exactly the used terminology here should be indicating EU/NGO/open border ideology for you. about Pritchards words, migration really is nothing new, it always happened. we didn't need the moots paper about rome to know this.
    So when local populations are conquered by invaders, they should just tell one another, "Oh well, nothing new."?

    More often than not, these "migrations", we read about in human population genetics, are done by means of conquest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    So when local populations are conquered by invaders, they should just tell one another, "Oh well, nothing new."?

    More often than not, these "migrations", we read about in human population genetics, are done by means of conquest.
    of course not but who is conquered by which invaders? you are starting way too extreme. for example beeing against migration of different people just because they look different is far away from defence against a real invasion. migration and mixing is nothing unusual in human history and as a consequence we are all mixed. stating this fact has nothing to do with modern border politics for most people. only for some special ones like the identitarians it has a lot to do with each other but speaking against these ideologies doesn't mean that you are for open borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    you still couldn't explain why exactly the used terminology here should be indicating EU/NGO/open border ideology for you. about Pritchards words, migration really is nothing new, it always happened. we didn't need the moots paper about rome to know this.
    I have said all I am going to say on this particular subject in this thread.

    Best regards to you and yours.

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    is this also open border ideology?

    "The village of Sumte, population 102, had to take in 750 asylum seekers. Most villagers swung into action, in keeping with Germany’s strong Willkommenskultur, or “welcome culture.” But one self-described neo-Nazi on the district council told The New York Times that by allowing the influx, the German people faced “the destruction of our genetic heritage” and risked becoming “a gray mishmash.”
    In fact, the German people have no unique genetic heritage to protect. They—and all other Europeans—are already a mishmash, the children of repeated ancient migrations, according to scientists who study ancient human origins.
    New studies show that almost all indigenous Europeans descend from at least three major migrations in the past 15,000 years, including two from the Middle East.

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...or-anyone-else

    or this?
    Genetic tests of ancient settlers' remains show that Europe is a melting pot of bloodlines from Africa, the Middle East, and today's Russia.


    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...sting-feature/


    no it's not, it's just reality. it has nothing to do with modern politics and it mostly hits those who have certain tendencies like that nazi from Sumte.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    is this also open border ideology?

    "The village of Sumte, population 102, had to take in 750 asylum seekers. Most villagers swung into action, in keeping with Germany�s strong Willkommenskultur, or �welcome culture.� But one self-described neo-Nazi on the district council told The New York Times that by allowing the influx, the German people faced �the destruction of our genetic heritage� and risked becoming �a gray mishmash.�
    In fact, the German people have no unique genetic heritage to protect. They�and all other Europeans�are already a mishmash, the children of repeated ancient migrations, according to scientists who study ancient human origins.
    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...or-anyone-else

    or this?
    Genetic tests of ancient settlers' remains show that Europe is a melting pot of bloodlines from Africa, the Middle East, and today's Russia.


    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...sting-feature/


    no it's not, it's just reality. it has nothing to do with modern politics and it mostly hits those who have certain tendencies like that nazi from Sumte.
    Enough with the politics, this is genetics thread, if you want to discuss open borders, take it to an appropriate thread.

    Those places have been melting pots since ancient settlers migrated from there. They have developed their own unique cultures as traditions as well, since that time. You can't use this shallow and distorted explanation as an excuse to say that people have no right to their own countries. Or to how they are allowed to govern their own countries. The same could be said for Native Americans, perhaps, since they share ANE ancestry. Why don't you lecture them, as to why they should except European colonists into their land? Perhaps you should lecture Africans, as to why they should except Europeans as well, since there was a Back to Africa migration.

    Enough already.

    Also, STOP accusing people of extremist positions, or I will give you an infraction, and you will be out of here for some time.

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    ok last comment just need to make clear that i do not think that people have no right for their own countries. why is what i wrote about the fact that europeans are a mishmash with lots of ancestry from near east a "shallow and distorted explanation as an excuse to say that people have no right to their own countries."?
    how exactly is this tied together for you? i'll leave it with that. i just can't see what this has to do with "open borders".

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    Aichu: How about we discuss this civilly in the Immigration forum. Not here. Just send me a PM saying your available and I will stop by that forum.

    Regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    ok last comment just need to make clear that i do not think that people have no right for their own countries. why is what i wrote about the fact that europeans are a mishmash with lots of ancestry from near east a "shallow and distorted explanation as an excuse to say that people have no right to their own countries."?
    how exactly is this tied together for you? i'll leave it with that. i just can't see what this has to do with "open borders".
    The source populations that make up modern Europeans are different from the modern Middle Eastern populations, genetically, and culturally. Anatolians and Caucasian people from both the Neolithic, and Copper age, are not the same as the post-medieval Middle Easterners. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. There is indeed some marginal, more recent admixture into Europeans as well. Of course they do share a lot, but they do also have their unique differences. We are all here to learn about the nuances of human population genetics. It is incorrect to make blanket statements that imply that they are the same throughout history. Especially, if inaccurate information is being used to justify political policy. I can't allow that to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The source populations that make up modern Europeans are different from the modern Middle Eastern populations, genetically, and culturally. Anatolians and Caucasian people from both the Neolithic, and Copper age, are not the same as the post-medieval Middle Easterners. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. There is indeed some marginal, more recent admixture into Europeans as well. Of course they do share a lot, but they do also have their unique differences. We are all here to learn about the nuances of human population genetics. It is incorrect to make blanket statements that imply that they are the same throughout history. Especially, if inaccurate information is being used to justify political policy. I can't allow that to happen.
    but can't you see that the logical conclusion from you saying this would be, that you connect border politics with those "unique" ethnic/genetic differences? how else are you going to explain to me that putting emphasis on genetic similarity or mixture is used to justify political policy according to you? because it does not have a connection with politics for me or any other person who does not tie genetics with politics.
    is this also political? it's from a paper in the new thread about france.
    "Genomes from early European farmers have shown a clear Near Eastern/Anatolian genetic affinity with limited contribution from hunter-gatherers."
    if so then they shouldn't call farmers "European" either. modern europeans are different genetically and certainly culturally.

    and i heard this already so many times, anatolia, neolithic, copper age are not the same as post-medieval middle easterners. what relevance does this particular seperation have in this discussion?

    i understand, when i heard from some scientific discussion that migration was always good and brought new innovations and ideas and people started to wonder why there still exists fear of migrants nowadays when migration was actually always so good then it really gets political and also stupid. but here i really just can't see the connection. we should be careful with this i read more and more from people who do not want to believe scientists anymore because they think all they do is politics.so now those were really my last words here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    but can't you see that the logical conclusion from you saying this would be, that you connect border politics with those "unique" ethnic/genetic differences? how else are you going to explain to me that putting emphasis on genetic similarity or mixture is used to justify political policy according to you? because it does not have a connection with politics for me or any other person who does not tie genetics with politics.
    is this also political? it's from a paper in the new thread about france.
    "Genomes from early European farmers have shown a clear Near Eastern/Anatolian genetic affinity with limited contribution from hunter-gatherers."
    if so then they shouldn't call farmers "European" either. modern europeans are different genetically and certainly culturally.

    and i heard this already so many times, anatolia, neolithic, copper age are not the same as post-medieval middle easterners. what relevance does this particular seperation have in this discussion?

    i understand, when i heard from some scientific discussion that migration was always good and brought new innovations and ideas and people started to wonder why there still exists fear of migrants nowadays when migration was actually always so good then it really gets political and also stupid. but here i really just can't see the connection. we should be careful with this i read more and more from people who do not want to believe scientists anymore because they think all they do is politics.so now those were really my last words here.
    Do not play dumb, you should now by now that the Neolithic Anatolians are a component that overlap with all West Eurasians. They are a component of both European, and Middle Eastern heritage. There were no concepts of Europe, or the middle east, culturally or genetically in prehistoric times. There weren't even geographical concepts for them either at that point. They weren't genetically, or culturally Middle Eastern, as we know it today, either. You can use flower and water, to both make a glue, and a loaf of bread. It doesn't mean they turn out to be the same thing.

    That better be your last comment on this matter, btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    but can't you see that the logical conclusion from you saying this would be, that you connect border politics with those "unique" ethnic/genetic differences? how else are you going to explain to me that putting emphasis on genetic similarity or mixture is used to justify political policy according to you? because it does not have a connection with politics for me or any other person who does not tie genetics with politics.
    is this also political? it's from a paper in the new thread about france.
    "Genomes from early European farmers have shown a clear Near Eastern/Anatolian genetic affinity with limited contribution from hunter-gatherers."
    if so then they shouldn't call farmers "European" either. modern europeans are different genetically and certainly culturally.

    and i heard this already so many times, anatolia, neolithic, copper age are not the same as post-medieval middle easterners. what relevance does this particular seperation have in this discussion?

    i understand, when i heard from some scientific discussion that migration was always good and brought new innovations and ideas and people started to wonder why there still exists fear of migrants nowadays when migration was actually always so good then it really gets political and also stupid. but here i really just can't see the connection. we should be careful with this i read more and more from people who do not want to believe scientists anymore because they think all they do is politics.so now those were really my last words here.
    That statement you quoted is not political. It is a purely scientific statement. And that is talking about populations that are ancient source populations, Hunter Gather vs. Farmer are not modern European ethnic groups, they are source populations for modern European ethnic groups, just with different admixture ratios.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    that table has some strange values. for example the lowest value is between tur and lit 0.0000. table 3 here makes much more sense, here the relative gap between europe near east is also way lower: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...ntary-material

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Do not play dumb, you should now by now that the Neolithic Anatolians are a component that overlap with all West Eurasians. They are a component of both European, and Middle Eastern heritage. There were no concepts of Europe, or the middle east, culturally or genetically in prehistoric times. There weren't even geographical concepts for them either at that point. They weren't genetically, or culturally Middle Eastern, as we know it today, either. You can use flower and water, to both make a glue, and a loaf of bread. It doesn't mean they turn out to be the same thing.

    That better be your last comment on this matter, btw.
    Completely agree, 60.000 years ago "Europeans" would have been Neandertals and Homo sapiens "Near Easterners". So what? Many ancestral groups to many modern populations lived in different places in the past. "Migrants" in the modern sense of the word practically didn't exist, because people moved as groups, as communities, clans, tribes and people, made alliances or conquests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    are you confusing the terms for North-italy ............do you mean Noric ?

    The Noric race (German: Norische Rasse) was a racial category. The term derived from Noricum, a province of the Roman Empire roughly equivalent to southern Austria and northern Slovenia. The term is not to be confused with Nordic.

    Norics were characterized by tall stature, brachycephaly, nasal convexity, long face and broad forehead. Their complexion was said to be light, and blondness combined with light eyes to be their anthropologic characteristic.[5]


    Veneti evolved with the indigenous Euganei peoples of modern Veneto and Friuli circa 1150BC , the euganei are "first cousins " of the Rhaeti
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganei
    The Euganei are part of the Polada Culture and maybe even the Este Culture

    I didn't confuse anything. I saw North-Italians who looked like Germans, Scandinavians, and NOT Noric. Please read my comment thoroughly. I said I know the difference between Germanic looking and typical Italian looking people with light hair and eye coloring. For instance; I have seen some Greeks with blondish hair and light eyes who apart from their light pigmentation looked like regular Greeks.


    These blond Sicilian men aside from their light hair and eyes have typical Italian features, especially their eyes. They don't look German.















    I'm from Germany I know how typical Germans look like.

    Typical Germans:







    Actually, some blonde Italians rather have a Slavic vibe, for instance, Trappatoni.





    However; the Germanic "Barbarians" had some genetic impact on North Italians and here and there it shows up in some Italian‘s people phenotype. Besides Germans were often described as Faelid and rarely as Noric.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    ED: Still regarding the genetic distance table, I wonder if "aos" has some issue, since it's getting too low values to other pops. It'd be interesting to see more recent tables involving these statistics (including shared IBD segments) for Euro pops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    that table has some strange values. for example the lowest value is between tur and lit 0.0000. table 3 here makes much more sense, here the relative gap between europe near east is also way lower: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...ntary-material
    Odd values, indeed. Thanks for finding this alternative. There is another one in Raveane et al., even more recent, but I'm affraid it only compares Italians to other Euro pops (in fst and IBD), nothing more. I'd have to re-check it. As Angela said, it's good to remember sometimes that there are these alternative perspectives.
    Anyway, these results for Bergamo mean that my first explanation was likely not good. Maybe the second one was better (in regards to timing and perhaps to the amount of the component that correlated more strongly to this kind of traits in certain historical context).

    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Completely agree, 60.000 years ago "Europeans" would have been Neandertals and Homo sapiens "Near Easterners". So what? Many ancestral groups to many modern populations lived in different places in the past. "Migrants" in the modern sense of the word practically didn't exist, because people moved as groups, as communities, clans, tribes and people, made alliances or conquests.
    @Jovialis @Riverman
    Plus, some of these components are too old. They evolved from more ancient components, became something else and likely kept changing till now under selective pressure etc. An example would be LP. It was pretty uncommon till "recently", and suffered a huge positive selection in North Europe, regardless of how the different components were combined.

    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I didn't confuse anything. I saw North-Italians who looked like Germans, Scandinavians, and NOT Noric. Please read my comment thoroughly. I said I know the difference between Germanic looking and typical Italian looking people with light hair and eye coloring. For instance; I have seen some Greeks with blondish hair and light eyes who apart from their light pigmentation looked like regular Greeks.


    These blond Sicilian men aside from their light hair and eyes have typical Italian features, especially their eyes. They don't look German.















    I'm from Germany I know how typical Germans look like.

    Typical Germans:







    Actually, some blonde Italians rather have a Slavic vibe, for instance, Trappatoni.





    However; the Germanic "Barbarians" had some genetic impact on North Italians and here and there it shows up in some Italian‘s people phenotype. Besides Germans were often described as Faelid and rarely as Noric.
    Yes. Another example would be this internet friend from my area, full Venetian in ancestry, and completely red headed, with light eyes etc. However, if you ignore these traits specifically, she looks a typical North Italian in my opinion. Indeed, her father, who is also red headed, did a genetic test, and there's nothing different about his results, i.e., he's not too different from most of Venetians (which was expected). He just casually inherited the alleles for these traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The source populations that make up modern Europeans are different from the modern Middle Eastern populations, genetically, and culturally. Anatolians and Caucasian people from both the Neolithic, and Copper age, are not the same as the post-medieval Middle Easterners. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. There is indeed some marginal, more recent admixture into Europeans as well. Of course they do share a lot, but they do also have their unique differences. We are all here to learn about the nuances of human population genetics. It is incorrect to make blanket statements that imply that they are the same throughout history. Especially, if inaccurate information is being used to justify political policy. I can't allow that to happen.
    @Regio X, Indeed

    We can see now from the recent studies that have come out, that places such as the Levant, also were markedly different from other parts of the middle east. For example half of the admixture of the northern Levantine population was from the previous inhabitants, which differentiated them from the clinal-hybrid of people from Anatolia, and the Caucuses, who were the incoming population. Moreover, there was an extra layer of possibly Mesopotamian-like ancestry that arrived in the late Bronze-age. Furthermore, successive waves of south-eastern European ancestry had come by means of the sea peoples and others. Not to mention all of the subsequent population changes that occurred in the Middle Ages, with the Caliphate, and Sub-Saharan African slavery; the invasion of the Turks, in Anatolia, etc.

    Thus, I confidently stand by the fact that just because there is an overlap between Anatolian, and Caucasian people in Europeans, there are marked differences with the "Near East". To suggest otherwise, completely ignores the subsequent changes that have happened, which are well documented. As I said before, we are here not to gloss over, but to understand the nuances of population genetics. Frankly, papers such as the one that this thread is based on paints a shallow and ignorant picture.

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    Not to be creepy, but who is the handsome blonde Sicilian?

    I'm asking for my daughter. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not to be creepy, but who is the handsome blonde Sicilian?

    I'm asking for my daughter. :)
    For a second I thought he was Guido Caprino, who played the Magistrate in the movie Last God Father and plays Inspector Mannara, the Sicilian Police Chief Inspectorr stationed in a rural town in Tuscany where he find his Deputy Commander, played by Roberta Giarusso (also from Sicily),who is not so happy about him being there (he does not know why) but obviously there is a love interest between the two that becomes known by the end of the show. But Guido has a little darker hair, although maybe it is a younger Guido Caprino. I will defer to Stuvane who in my view is the resident Eupedia expert on Italian TV shows, maybe he knows.

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    I should have known. They were probably obsessing about him over at someplace like theapricity...

    Alessandro D’Avenia, holds a PhD in Classical Literature, and teaches Ancient Greek, Latin and Literature at a high school in Milan. His debut novel, Bianca come il latte, rossa come il sangue (White as Milk, Red as Blood), published by Mondadori in 2010, was translated into more than twenty languages and sold more than one million copies in Italy. A film version was released in 2012. His book, L’arte di essere fragili (The Art of Being Fragile), published by Mondadori in 2016, was number one across all genres in Italy for more than five months and has since sold more than 400,000 copies in hardback. His latest book, Ogni storia e’ una storia d’amore (Every story is a love story), published in October 2017, was also number one in the charts. Both these books became bestselling theatre shows directed by Gabriele Vacis. His five books combined have sold 2.5 million copies in Italy alone.

    Strikingly handsome and all of that as well; talk about life not being fair. :)

    Guido Caprino-also very handsome, and very Italian looking, but in a very different way, a more masculine way to me...what a difference hair makes...like him better with dyed black hair.







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