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Thread: Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

  1. #26
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    Has someone actually checked the chart and found they're all in chronological order? Is it oldest to youngest or the reverse? I would think the 100% steppe Beaker sample would be one of the first arrivals, yes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Has someone actually checked the chart and found they're all in chronological order? Is it oldest to youngest or the reverse? I would think the 100% steppe Beaker sample would be one of the first arrivals, yes?
    It was an "if" on my side. It could be, also, that they're classified by Steppe (it looks more likely; still...). I don't know. I was in doubt because of PEI2 in Bell Beakers, who has more Steppe than I1388 just above.

    ED: They don't seem classified by age in the Chart I posted. Sorry. ->
    https://www.pnas.org/highwire/filestream/927577/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/pnas.1918034117.sd01.xlsx


    Also curious this G2a1 in Late Neolithic (they're generally G2a2). I don't remember of another one. Is it perhaps the first? G2a1 is way more common in Caucasus nowadays (Georgia, Ossetia...).

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    Ok.

    I'm going to just look up Bell Beaker for now. I can't find dates for the samples starting with 113 anywhere. I'll keep looking in the Tables.

    CBV95 La Bouche-à-Vesle Ciry_Salsogne 49.36232 3.46272 Late Neolithic Campaniforme 3970 +/- 30BP (GrA-32767) 2574-2452 Hauts-de-France (North)
    11381
    11390
    11391
    11382
    11389
    11388
    PEI2 Dolmen des Peirières Villedubert 43.1355 2.2519 Late Neolithic Campaniforme 3935 +/- 30BP (Ly-14875) 2563-2308

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    Does anyone knows why only two bell beakers appear in the supplements and all other BBC , "I" , with several (L151 and P312) are absent? I have checked several of the excel supplements and can't seem to find those...

    Edit: and does anyone know where the "I" is from or stands for?
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
    In Slides (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/ )
    In text (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Does anyone knows why only two bell beakers appear in the supplements and all other BBC , "I" , with several (L151 and P312) are absent? I have checked several of the excel supplements and can't seem to find those...

    Edit: and does anyone know where the "I" is from or stands for?
    If you'll look at post number 31, you'll see I can't find them either.

    As for I1

    Cx161 I1a2b4~ 134632 179 1 1 1 1 I-FGC3466


    Lyon-15193 Cx161 ZAC Agora 5340 30 51.44 0.2 3.2 4314-4052 cal E


    Cx161 SF-MN 12331 55 H1 0.999 0+/-0



    I don't find an autosomal analysis anywhere. Apparently they didn't have enough material to get that for all of them. I accept that.

    There's no excuse for a whole set of BB samples not having dates assigned to them or showing up in the Tabes with percentages when they've clearly done the analysis since it appears in the chart with proportions of Yamnaya, Anatolia Neolithic, and Villabruna.

    Some of the BB men do indeed not have very much steppe, as is also true of the Bronze Age, but what the chronology is I'm still not sure. They may go in opposite directions. It does seem to me the 100% steppe Beaker is one of the early arrivals, perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you'll look at post number 31, you'll see I can't find them either.

    A


    Some of the BB men do indeed not have very much steppe, as is also true of the Bronze Age, but what the chronology is I'm still not sure. They may go in opposite directions. It does seem to me the 100% steppe Beaker is one of the early arrivals, perhaps?
    Even Davidki says it looks 100% CWC... so can not be 100% steppe.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    That's odd. Earlier today there were no Excel files in the Supporting Information. Now they show up. I can finally find answers to y questions.

    1) Regarding E1b samples, there are:

    - 4 of the E1b1b samples are from the Michelsberg culture in Alsace.
    - one E1b1a1a1a1c2c (CTS3274) sample (PSS282) from Pont-sur-Seine (between Paris and Troyes). That one is highly surprising as it is normally found in places like Senegal and North Africa.
    - one E1b1b from Le Cailar (between Montpellier and Nîmes) dating from the second Iron Age (La Tène culture).

    2) Here are the I1 samples:

    a) a Middle Neolithic I1 sample, Cugnaux near Toulouse in SW France dated 5300 ybp. This sample is I1-FGC3466 (aka S5619), which according to Yfull was formed 4600 ybp and has a TMRCA of 3800 ybp. It is a rare branch of I1a2-Z58>Z138 found in Western Europe.



    b) an Early Bronze Age I1-Y6885, downstream of I1a2-Z58>Z60>Z140>A196>Y6900. This branch is found apparently only in Britain and Ireland today. Yfull gives a age of 3200 ybp and TMRCA of 1050 ybp. The archeological sample is dated 3490 ybp, so slightly older.



    c) an I1 (no subclade provided) from Bessan (between Montpellier and Narbonne) from the second Iron Age (La Tène culture).

    d) Excel file #11 also lists another I1 (GOX287) but it is not listed elsewhere, so I don't know the location and age.

    Conclusion regarding I1 : both ancient French samples are older than current age estimates for those clades. It is the first compelling evidence that some I1 branches are not of Scandinavian/Germanic origin.


    3) Figure S3-2 in the OP appears incorrect. It showed several C1a2 samples from the Bronze Age, but none are listed in the Excel file. There is only one C1a2 sample from Neolithic Alsace.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    We know that the Belgae were not 100 % Celtic, they were already a mix of Celtic and Germanic tribes.
    Some Germanic tribes may have infiltrated further south too, like Ariovistus did in Ceasar's time.
    The first Germanic tribes we know of are the Cimbri and the Teutones, because the Romans new them.
    Many other tribes may have been wandering around without us knowing it.

    Some people have even thought there was a thrird group, speaking the famous N-W European (IE) languages among the so called Belgae.
    PLus: the supposed Belgae tribes (whatever their genuine ethnic affiliation) were settled until the Seine river, covering a lot of North and East today France territories, if I recall correctly.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What they said in regard to MtDna N1a could perhaps be applied to all uniparentals, i.e. any lineage which was less than 25% of the total has a 95% chance of not being picked up.

    Differences between northern and southern France go back to the Neolithic. That’s sometimes obscured in their graph covering broad areas and time periods.For example, look at all the U5b in Michelsberg culture.

    I think they’re right to question the origin of these mitochondrial lineages. Perhaps, along with some “local” resurgence, we also have people moving in from further north.

    So perhaps we could say that pre-Bronze Age, the south was fairly homogeneous in terms of mtDna but the north was heterogeneous with quite a few areas showing more U5b.

    I think this fits in with a scenario where there just weren’t as many Mesolithic hunter-gatherers in Southern Europe, and so the Neolithic “take over” was pretty complete.

    With the Bronze Age come I, U2, and U5a. So, some women came to France with the steppe admixed groups, unlike what seems to have happened in Spain.
    Interesting also in this regard are the Bell Beakers. Perhaps it’s a function of small sample sizes, but there’s very little U of any kind; it’s almost all H and K.

    Then the U5a and U5b go up in the Bronze Age (continuing migration?) to go back down in the Iron Age.

    The Iron Age is interesting in another way in that H and J go way up. They point out the similarly high levels of H on the Pontic steppe and the J in central Europe Neolithic. Is that a hint for them of another population movement from more Central Europe?


    As you say, the BB's mt samples are too tiny to give us any certainty; but I find amazing the mtDNA change in IA (regions would be useful here)

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    I highly doubt the e1b1a.... 😲
    Some expert need to go on the bam
    Files when they are avilable
    And check the calls.... 🤔
    About e-m78 not surprised
    It is the european branch of e1b1b
    While m123 more in middle east and m81 in north west - africa iberia

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    a) a Middle Neolithic I1 sample, Cugnaux near Toulouse in SW France dated 5300 ybp. This sample is I1-FGC3466 (aka S5619), which according to Yfull was formed 4600 ybp and has a TMRCA of 3800 ybp. It is a rare branch of I1a2-Z58>Z138 found in Western Europe.
    YFull also works with a CI 95%. In this case, we should look to the age of formation, since this is probably a non-full developed I1-S5619 (likely the sample is negative for some current S5619 equivalents - there're seven). That said, the CI 95% of formation in YFull is not that off: 5200-4100 ybp.

    b) an Early Bronze Age I1-Y6885, downstream of I1a2-Z58>Z60>Z140>A196>Y6900. This branch is found apparently only in Britain and Ireland today. Yfull gives a age of 3200 ybp and TMRCA of 1050 ybp. The archeological sample is dated 3490 ybp, so slightly older.
    Likely not a full-developed I1-Y6885 either. CI 95% of formation: 3900-2500 ybp.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here are the R1b clades deeper than P312 from the paper:
    Sample ID Location Age Haplogroup
    OBE3626-1 Obernai, Alsace EBA, c. 1800 BCE R1b-DF27>Z225
    BIS159 Bischwihr, Alsace EBA, c. 1900 BCE R1b-U152
    BIS382 Bischwihr, Alsace EBA, c. 1900 BCE R1b-U152

    Unfortunately no deep clade for Iron Age Gauls. I hope we can determine them by analysing the raw data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    As for I1
    Thanks .... but I meant what the "I" in I1388, I1389 stands for... Which region of France. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here are the R1b clades deeper than P312 from the paper:
    Sample ID Location Age Haplogroup
    OBE3626-1 Obernai, Alsace EBA, c. 1800 BCE R1b-DF27>Z225
    BIS159 Bischwihr, Alsace EBA, c. 1900 BCE R1b-U152
    BIS382 Bischwihr, Alsace EBA, c. 1900 BCE R1b-U152

    Unfortunately no deep clade for Iron Age Gauls. I hope we can determine them by analysing the raw data.
    According to the graph I posted, PIR3037AB (EBA - 3663 +/- 43BP) is supposedly R-Y28681 (formation from 4200 to 2700 ybp), below R-L21. Not sure where the categorization comes from.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y28681/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    YFull also works with a CI 95%. In this case, we should look to the age of formation, since this is probably a non-full developed I1-S5619 (likely the sample is negative for some current S5619 equivalents - there're seven). That said, the CI 95% of formation in YFull is not that off: 5200-4100 ybp.
    As a side note, I'd say that the age of the sample roughly corresponding to the upper limit of CI 95% provided by YFull for formation suggests that this clade (I1-S5619) must have originated around there. More than that, a I1-S5619 obviously descend from a full developed I1 necessarily, and I1's CI 95% TMRCA is 5100-4000 ybp (we could say 5200-4000 ybp based on the range for I1-S5619 formation).

    Considering the SNPs upstream S5619 till this "complete" I1 - the MRCA -, five are located in combBED region of Y chromosome - the one used by YFull for age estimation. 5 SNPs in a CI 95% generally mean a lower limit of ~400 years. I'm using this lower limit here since the actual I1's MRCA unlikely lived so out of YFull interval, then I was guessing something like 5700 ybb for the actual TMRCA of I1, more or less. Assuming that the date of Cx161 is correct.

    Conclusion is that I think it's pretty possible that the I1 MRCA, from Neolithic, lived somewhere in France, or close to. While some pre-I1s were mostly Wester Hunter-Gatherers in Autosomal and something else before that, others must have been farmers mostly, like the MRCA individual, too. That's new.
    Last edited by Regio X; 28-05-20 at 02:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    As a side note, I'd say that the age of the sample roughly corresponding to the upper limit of CI 95% provided by YFull for formation suggests that this clade (I1-S5619) must have originated around there. More than that, a I1-S5619 obviously descend from a full developed I1 necessarily, and I1's CI 95% TMRCA is 5100-4000 ybp (we could say 5200-4000 ybp based on the range for I1-S5619 formation).
    Considering the SNPs upstream S5619 till this "complete" I1 - the MRCA -, five are located in combBED region of Y chromosome - the one used by YFull for age estimation. 5 SNPs in a CI 95% generally mean a lower limit of ~400 years. I'm using this lower limit here since the actual I1's MRCA unlikely lived so out of YFull interval, then I was guessing something like 5700 ybb for the actual TMRCA of I1, more or less. Assuming that the date of Cx161 is correct.
    Conclusion is that I think it's pretty possible that the I1 MRCA, from Neolithic, lived somewhere in France, or close to. While some pre-I1s were mostly Wester Hunter-Gatherers in Autosomal and something else before that, others were likely farmers mostly, like the MRCA individual, too.
    In post number 30, you can see that what they label I1a2b4~ has a calibrated date which is quite a bit younger.
    Last edited by Angela; 28-05-20 at 04:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In post number 30, you can see that what they label I1a2b4~ has a calibrated rate which is quite a bit younger.
    Oh! I see now Maciamo mentioned the uncal. Thanks. That changes things.

    So both time of formation and TMRCA fit the YFull interval. The I1 MRCA must have lived between ~400 and 1050 years before Cx161 then. The lower limit would be related to a minimum of I1 extra mutations in relation to Cx161, while 1050 would come from the upper limit of 5100 in the CI 95% for I1 TMRCA and also from the range 4300-4050 for the sample.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    As you say, the BB's mt samples are too tiny to give us any certainty; but I find amazing the mtDNA change in IA (regions would be useful here)
    So do I.

    In Table S1 they list all the samples by date and culture and location. All the Iron Age samples are labeled La Tene, and they cover the north, east, and south (Occitane).

    Unfortunately, they don't put the mtDna, or yDna, for that matter, on the same sheet. That information isn't even given for all the samples, and it's scattered throughout the Tables. We'd have to take the sample names from the chart and hunt the information through the Tables.

    Given that the data is missing for a whole set of Beakers, as I mentioned upthread, it's difficult to know whether the change in R1b is significant.

    It looks to me as if there was probably a movement of new people into France. Whether they brought a different type of Indo-European is another issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post




    Am I wrong or we're seeing two possible "replacements"? .
    I'm pretty sure it's all the same replacement from macro group R1b-M269. I wouldn't read much further into it than that. Recall the very early intrusion of R1b-M269/L151 in Switzerland Neolithic burial who looks similar to Corded Ware. These could have all been layered tribes, but frankly, at the end of the day, it's the same group of men, just close cousins of one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Yeah, the colors are too close together between Greeks & Albanians particularly since they overlap so much. I did not think that Albanians would be so close to Bulgarians, I was kind of surprised by that. What I was not surprised by was the overlap and closeness between Bulgarians and Romanians. I guess the Ancient Thracians & Dacians were pretty close. As far as that one way out there sample, maybe Cappadocian Greeks. The ones that are separate from the main cluster probably Pontic or Thracian Greeks.
    What's here to be strange?

    It's a clinal similarity in the Balkans. Albanians are more Western Balkans shifted than Bulgarians.

    Bwy, i know you guys despise us and want our homeland to make as far away as Baikal if u can because of political reasons. But, reality is different.

    P.S Let's see if those E1b1b samples are E-V13 instead, that would be quite interesting.

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    did you all check the spreadsheets sd10 & sd11 with markers for Y-DNA, capture & shotgun?
    for capture they use recent ISOGG codes, for shotgun older ISOGG codes
    very confusing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    What's here to be strange?

    It's a clinal similarity in the Balkans. Albanians are more Western Balkans shifted than Bulgarians.

    Bwy, i know you guys despise us and want our homeland to make as far away as Baikal if u can because of political reasons. But, reality is different.

    P.S Let's see if those E1b1b samples are E-V13 instead, that would be quite interesting.
    Don't look for ulterior motives.I am not surprised at the overlap with the Greeks, I am surprised at the closeness with the Bulgarians. I guess I should not be surprised if the Bulgarians were just an warrior band that then imposed their civilization and language on the more numerous local Thracians.

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    There are three G-L497s in the sheet S11 (but not in the sheet S01).

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    did you all check the spreadsheets sd10 & sd11 with markers for Y-DNA, capture & shotgun?
    for capture they use recent ISOGG codes, for shotgun older ISOGG codes
    very confusing
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Am I wrong or we're seeing two possible "replacements"? Firstly, R1b1a1a (R1b-M73) Bell Beakers replacing I2, G2a, E1 etc., then R1b1a1b (R1b-M269) replacing R1b1a1a in Bronze Age. Curiously, the Bell Beakers R1b1a1a-M73 shows up with a G2a2b2b-PF3359 (this one has no WHG ancestry), and both are uncommon nowadays (the more common type of G2a in Europe now is G2a2b2a-P303).
    @Bicicleur
    Indeed. I hadn't checked the sheets you mentioned. In S01, for example, PIR3037AB shows up as R1b1a1a2, while in S11 it shows up as R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a5c3c1. It makes no sense using two different versions of ISOGG tree.
    I wonder if in the graph I posted those Bell Beakers with "I" IDs are assigned with the old codes while BA are assigned with the new. Likely. So it'd a mix in the same graph. Jesus!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Don't look for ulterior motives.I am not surprised at the overlap with the Greeks, I am surprised at the closeness with the Bulgarians. I guess I should not be surprised if the Bulgarians were just an warrior band that then imposed their civilization and language on the more numerous local Thracians.
    The Bulgarians and Slavs didn't meet the Thracians on their best, they very heavily devastated by the Justinian Plague, it's well noted that after that pandemic the Arabs had the luck to create an Empire and Slavs, Bulgarians and various people from the North/East to migrate in the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Don't look for ulterior motives.I am not surprised at the overlap with the Greeks, I am surprised at the closeness with the Bulgarians. I guess I should not be surprised if the Bulgarians were just an warrior band that then imposed their civilization and language on the more numerous local Thracians.
    I think that's exactly the case. Their genetic impact would have been very small, as happened with a similar situation in Hungary.

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