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Thread: Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    There are three G-L497s in the sheet S11 (but not in the sheet S01).



    Indeed. I hadn't checked the sheets you mentioned. In S01, for example, PIR3037AB shows up as R1b1a1a2, while in S11 it shows up as R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a5c3c1. It makes no sense using two different versions of ISOGG tree.
    I wonder if in the graph I posted those Bell Beakers with "I" IDs are assigned with the old codes while BA are assigned with the new. Likely. So it'd a mix in the same graph. Jesus!
    So, could you list the yDna for Beaker, Bronze and Iron? Is it a different yDna for each group in terms of predominant averages? With cultures so extremely patriarchal at least up to the Iron Age, I think it matters.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, could you list the yDna for Beaker, Bronze and Iron? Is it a different yDna for each group in terms of predominant averages? With cultures so extremely patriarchal at least up to the Iron Age, I think it matters.
    I'll try when I find a time. My guess is that those Bell Beakers with "I" ids are also R1b-M269 after all. We'll see.

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    Interesting how this study proves once again what humans go around and expand successfully, its bands of men closing ranks and replacing others if possible. Logical, but now proven ad infinitum. Michelsberg is a really interesting case of a so far uncommon exclusive alliance of I2a and E1b. One theory was that E1b was already present among Mesolithic Europeans, at least in the South East, let's see how this pans out with more data coming and from where these Michelbergers where.
    Another remarkable new finding is the potential proof for newcomers in the Iron Age. Because I doubt that a lot of the local I1 and E1b was coming from local survivors, because I2, which was all that dominant before BB, largely disappeared and never reappered in the Iron Age in significant numbers, while a small amount of E1b, G2 and I1 came back again. Possibly together with R1b from further East, spreading the Celtic language and Iron Age culture. Analyses of Michelsberg and BB vs. Iron Age autosomally might prove to be hgihly interesting. Also how the (especially Southern) French BB compare with the Iberian ones and fit as a potential source.

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    ^^Well, according to the authors, the steppe men brought women with them to France even if they took local mates (the data provided bears that out from what I can see), but seem to think that's not the case with Spain, where they don't find incoming steppe mtDna.

    Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?

    In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Well, according to the authors, the steppe men brought women with them to France even if they took local mates (the data provided bears that out from what I can see), but seem to think that's not the case with Spain, where they don't find incoming steppe mtDna.
    Its not about whether they take foreign women, but that they stick together and decide whom they accept and usually they accept either no one, some young fertile women or very exceptional, useful males as an exception. So its like an exclusive club which spreads and membership being restricted.

    Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?
    I'm pretty sure not from the Alps. The Alps were bad for farmers, even worse for foragers. I think we have to look up the North or West and to the sea rather.

    In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.
    I think it will be proven to have been a step by step expansion. One assimilated group after another being taken and by then, males were used as workforce and allies on a much bigger and less exclusive scale, possibly even some elite alliances between this not so different people any more. This means at the endpoint of this movement, in Ireland, the least impact is to be expected and the influence from further South East will increase the closer it gets to the core zone, with an even stronger impact being possible in early Hallstatt than later La Tene, because of a more Thraco-Cimmerian like element in the upper class in particular.
    This elite Eastern and South Eastern element might have been reduced again in La Tene imho, because the Hallstatt system was destroyed and the elite might not have survived the revolution everywhere at all. But they ruled long enough for changing the general population both culturally and genetically in the areas which were later La Tene too, even if not as much as the Eastern Hallstatt sphere.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, if they didn't bring their own women with them, the options change. :)

    It will also change the resulting admixture, increasing the percentage of "local" autosomal ancestry.

    Not an insignificant distinction to make.

    If they got rid of all the original "local" males, where did the local Ydna males come from who were then absorbed hundreds of years if not a millennia later. G2a seems to have been absorbed, but not I2a2. E was probably absorbed most in the Balkans imo, but we'll see.

    Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological. Goths absorbed local men in Italy, Langobards much, much less, because they were less "assimilated" to the Roman world themselves. So in that case the first to arrive were more "open". They liked a lot about Roman life, so they needed men to keep it going. The Langobards just put their horses in the Pantheon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, if they didn't bring their own women with them, the options change. :)

    It will also change the resulting admixture, increasing the percentage of "local" autosomal ancestry.

    Not an insignificant distinction to make.

    If they got rid of all the original "local" males, where did the local Ydna males come from who were then absorbed. G2a seems to have been absorbed, but not I2a2. E was probably absorbed most in the Balkans imo, but we'll see.

    Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological. Goths absorbed local men in Italy, Langobards much, much less, because they were less "assimilated" to the Roman world themselves.
    Both E, I1 and G might have come from the Balkans, Carpathians and Pannonia originally, from there to Northern Central Europe and even later to France and Western Europe. I1 is the most mysterious, different scenarios possible, but for the majority of E1b and G2 I'm pretty sure they will pop up latest in Hallstatt burials, first further East, later in the West. They will have expanded with the Iron Age innovations and the new societal rules primarily, but have started in full Bronze Age already.

    I'm still waiting for I1 in Unetice to show up and from there going to Scandinavia. There are different scenarios thinkable, but I would bet on that first.

    Maybe each group had a slightly different attitude, so it was not all chronological.
    Even if they had a quite similar attitude, the different circumstances might have produced different outcomes. Like if the local women were ready to flee and even die at any cost, picking up local women was no option even if they wanted to. Not like this didn't happen at all, it depends on both sides. Women have to accept their new fate and the males have to accept them. If one side was reluctant or had no need to, no mixture.
    The same goes for "male special cases". Foreign males were only accepted if it was important for the success of the clan.
    Even a single male or very, very small group accepted by the clan in a desperate situation, when they needed help, could have led to the multiplication of the foreign lineage inside the newly forged alliance within a couple of generations. This can be totally stochastic even, if it turns out 3 accepted brothers were excellent warriors, rose to prominence, the clan became very successful and suddenly half of a widespread tribe descends from these 3 brothers which were accepted by a clan as helpers. But contrary to Iberia this needs time and a specific pattern - like its impossible its just one lineage dominating the population, it must be a mix, like the Michelsberger. Its possible, but it was not the rule. But it happened, in my opinion, for I1 in Northern Europe and E-V13 in parts of South Eastern and Eastern Central Europe. Chances for such a success are the best in transitional periods, like at the end of Unetice and the beginning of the Northern Bronze Age culture, whereever the I1 clan originally came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Both E, I1 and G might have come from the Balkans, Carpathians and Pannonia originally, from there to Northern Central Europe and even later to France and Western Europe. I1 is the most mysterious, different scenarios possible, but for the majority of E1b and G2 I'm pretty sure they will pop up latest in Hallstatt burials, first further East, later in the West. They will have expanded with the Iron Age innovations and the new societal rules primarily, but have started in full Bronze Age already.

    I'm still waiting for I1 in Unetice to show up and from there going to Scandinavia. There are different scenarios thinkable, but I would bet on that first.
    That makes a lot of sense to me. Different attitude from a different group which then moved to central Europe and the west.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Well, according to the authors, the steppe men brought women with them to France even if they took local mates (the data provided bears that out from what I can see), but seem to think that's not the case with Spain, where they don't find incoming steppe mtDna.
    Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?
    In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.
    F2.large.jpg
    check this figure B - Olalde
    first arrival of Bell Beaker in Iberia, some of the very first females were almost 100 % BB
    BB females came to Iberia as well
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    So, could you list the yDna for Beaker, Bronze and Iron? Is it a different yDna for each group in terms of predominant averages? With cultures so extremely patriarchal at least up to the Iron Age, I think it matters.
    What is clear is that they used different ISOGG versions. For example, if you check CBV95 (Bell Beaker) at S01 and S11, you'll notice that he's assigned differently. R-M269 were R1b1a1a2 in 2016 and 2017, and became R1b1a1b after that. So, I believe all these Bell Beakers were R1b-M269, yes, which would mean they mixed ISOGG versions in the same graph. lol Three out five in that graph I posted would be confirmed R1b-P312 then; one confirmed R1b-L151 and one R1b-M269 (the CBV95). Curiously, most of them are not listed in S01 neither S11.

    Unfortunately, I cannot find the three G-L497s anywhere outside S11. At least two look La Tène: BES1249 and ERS83-2. There would be a third G2a in S01, NOR2B2, labeled as Hallstatt C - Early "La Tène", however, he's not in S11, neither I found the related BAM file for further analysis. The first graph I posted in this thread shows only one G2a in La Tène though.

    This paper could have been better "organized".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    What is clear is that they used different ISOGG versions. For example, if you check CBV95 (Bell Beaker) at S01 and S11, you'll notice that he's assigned differently. R-M269 were R1b1a1a2 in 2016 and 2017, and became R1b1a1b after that. So, I believe all these Bell Beakers were R1b-M269, yes, which would mean they mixed ISOGG versions in the same graph. lol Three out five in that graph I posted would be confirmed R1b-P312 then; one confirmed R1b-L151 and one R1b-M269 (the CBV95). Curiously, most of them are not listed in S01 neither S11.

    Unfortunately, I cannot find the three G-L497s anywhere outside S11. At least two look La Tène: BES1249 and ERS83-2. There would be a third G2a in S01, NOR2B2, labeled as Hallstatt C - Early "La Tène", however, he's not in S11, neither I found the related BAM file for further analysis. The first graph I posted in this thread shows only one G2a in La Tène though.

    This paper could have been better "organized".
    That's quite an understatement.:)

    Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

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    The genotype data of this paper avialable🤔

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB38152

    If some experts can run the y haplogroup check for calls😉

    P.s
    ( I also intrested about the e-m78 and e-m215 from berg alsace... which branch are they exactly )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^Well, according to the authors, the steppe men brought women with them to France even if they took local mates (the data provided bears that out from what I can see), but seem to think that's not the case with Spain, where they don't find incoming steppe mtDna.

    Michelsberg is one of those cultures where you suddenly get a lot of "resurgence" of hunter-gatherer mtDna. My question is not only where did the E1b1b come from, but where did the women come from? A movement south from the northeast? A refugia in the Alps?

    In terms of any "possible" migration into Iron Age France, there's certainly a change in the mtDna. With all the confusion about the exact lineage of the Ydna Beaker to Iron Age I'm not sure if there was any change.

    a bit out of topic, but the Spain case could maybe explain how a Y-R1b BB 's small southern lineage (at first, and then with only males, some "arrow vanguard group") already IE speaker, lost its IE language for other languages more akin to Basque/Aquitanian or Iberian? Just an hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a bit out of topic, but the Spain case could maybe explain how a Y-R1b BB 's small southern lineage (at first, and then with only males, some "arrow vanguard group") already IE speaker, lost its IE language for other languages more akin to Basque/Aquitanian or Iberian? Just an hypothesis.
    I think it's a good hypothesis. :)

    It makes sense of results from other papers combined with these: an initial group? with some of their own women, but then predominately males, and this leading to the adoption of "local" languages.

    It would go a long way to explaining the issues with language "not" changing in certain areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    F2.large.jpg
    check this figure B - Olalde
    first arrival of Bell Beaker in Iberia, some of the very first females were almost 100 % BB
    BB females came to Iberia as well

    Thanks for sharing, Bicileur.
    I had read Olalde, but I 've no remembering of some of these graphs.
    YOu 're right: some first BB's in Iberia had "their" females by them. SO the possible shift in BB'slanguage is still uneasy to explain, finally; all the way, one graph shows they took local females (as we knew already), what is reflected in autosomes partial shift; interesting too: the IA less assimilated Y-R1b's and their females like them, what shows new arrivals surely from North into Iberia after BA; if not they would have been more 'chalcolike' after centuries of crossings. Or I am mistaken?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    The genotype data of this paper avialable������
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB38152
    If some experts can run the y haplogroup check for calls������
    P.s
    ( I also intrested about the e-m78 and e-m215 from berg alsace... which branch are they exactly )

    Alf an expert from e3b haplozone site
    Checked the e1b1b calls from berg
    And the e1b1a
    Those e-m78 samples are real was able to verify them
    The e1b1a not so much
    I wish he would look on the other 2
    e- m215 samples to know there branch( but he didn't)

    His words:
    I found the fastq files for the M78 Bergheim, France samples. At present I have looked at BERG157-9, BERG157-3 and BERG79 (ordered most Y sequences to least). The sequencing appears to have targeted M215 and M78 and they are all positive for those.
    The M78 calls for each sample are supported by positive results as follows:
    BERG157-9: L337/PF1509, PF1554, PF1551, P2, M215, L336/PF1825, L539, M78.
    BERG157-3: M96/PF1823, M215, CTS8002, M78.
    BERG79: PF1551, M215, M78.
    BERG157-9 has no coverage for any L618 or V13 equivalent nor do I see any positive results for any other M78 sub branch at present.
    BERG157-3 has the one negative result for CTS3287 but no coverage for any other L618 or V13 equivalent to verify or contradict it.
    BERG79 also has no coverage for any L618 or V13 equivalent.


    I also have taken a look at the fastq files for the Pont-sur-Seine sample, PSS282, called E1b1a1a1a1c2c. I could not verify this result however and found negative results for the SNPs:
    L337/PF1509, M96/PF1823, F1365/PF1558, P2. (Also as would be expected a negative result for L336/PF1825).
    Last edited by kingjohn; 21-06-20 at 14:28.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What about the La Tene E1b1b, could he check the downstream?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    What about the La Tene E1b1b, could he check the downstream?
    i am not a member in this site
    johan the e-v13 member from this forum is
    ,maybe he can ask alf there
    kind regards
    Adam

    p.s
    i am also interested to know there is 1 LA -Tene as you mention and 1 more individual from the berg site

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am also interested to know there is 1 LA -Tene as you mention and 1 more individual from the berg site
    I second that. Very interested myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I second that. Very interested myself
    Are you E-V13 yourself?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Are you E-V13 yourself?
    Yes, I'm part of that bunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Yes, I'm part of that bunch.
    My all time favorite posters on this anthro-foras was Austrian and E-V13.

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    This was the study that found I1? Does anybody know if there was I1 in SHG and EHG in places like Sweden, Finland and NW Russia?

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