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Thread: Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, N.Levant & S. Caucasus

  1. #26
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    Interesting paper ! I hope there will be open access version soon. Arslantepe R1b-V1636 the same subclade like one Eneolithic Steppe guy without any autosomal steppe ancestry. His dates will be interesting.

    Edit: Date for ART038: 3361-3105 cal BCE.
    Last edited by Anfänger; 29-05-20 at 13:19.

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    Well, I paid the 31 USD because the video indicated that they had Shulaveri-Shomu... when in fact, not really.
    but it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
    the Good:
    a. they do have DNA from a boy in Mentesh Tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract Mtdna. So U7 is added to the MTdna of Shulaveri that have H2+152, H15a1, I1 and now U7.
    b. they do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on Shulaveri-Shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

    the bad:
    The Shulaveri boy does plot on PCA as a bit of a stand out being a mix of Barcin and CHG . but even while they state that the Shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in Polutepe, south of Baku (Azerbaijan) that should have much more Iran_N (as opposed to other CHG types).

    Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
    Anyone here can help with the Shulaveri boy BAM file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).
    From Shulaveri Shomu to Bell Beakers
    In Slides (https://shulaverianhypothesis.blogs.sapo.pt/ )
    In text (https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Well, I paid the 31 USD because the video indicated that they had Shulaveri-Shomu... when in fact, not really.
    but it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
    the Good:
    a. they do have DNA from a boy in Mentesh Tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract Mtdna. So U7 is added to the MTdna of Shulaveri that have H2+152, H15a1, I1 and now U7.
    b. they do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on Shulaveri-Shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

    the bad:
    The Shulaveri boy does plot on PCA as a bit of a stand out being a mix of Barcin and CHG . but even while they state that the Shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in Polutepe, south of Baku (Azerbaijan) that should have much more Iran_N (as opposed to other CHG types).

    Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
    Anyone here can help with the Shulaveri boy BAM file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).
    I told you Shulaveri Shomu will be too late to be the source of the southern component in the Steppe. They have plenty of Iran Hajji-Firuz Chalcolithic. This ancestry spreads all over the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-in-the-Levant
    Yes, you were right.

    It always made more sense to me: pastoralism went north-south, J1 went north-south. Why would language have the opposite trajectory?

    Well, well, perhaps another one where most of anthrogenica got it completely wrong.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks.

    Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?

    Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?


    you welcome :)
    i don't know enough on haplogroup G subclades

    dates of the sites

    Untitled.jpg
    Lab individual ID Archaeological Site Name 14C age (BP) ± Cal 1 sigma Cal 2 sigma
    ( source: from other forum)

    ALA001 Alalakh3151 24 cal BCE 1486-1407 cal BCE 1496-1325
    ALA002 Alalakh3158 22 cal BCE 1487-1412 cal BCE 1496-1401
    ALA004 Alalakh3507 23 cal BCE 1883-1776 cal BCE 1895-1752
    ALA008 Alalakh3473 23 cal BCE 1875-1748 cal BCE 1881-1700
    ALA011 Alalakh3382 23 cal BCE 1729-1641 cal BCE 1741-1624
    ALA013 Alalakh3457 24 cal BCE 1870-1698 cal BCE 1878-1693
    ALA014 Alalakh3392 23 cal BCE 1737-1646 cal BCE 1743-1630
    ALA015 Alalakh3566 26 cal BCE 1944-1887 cal BCE 2014-1781
    ALA016 Alalakh3284 24 cal BCE 1609-1528 cal BCE 1617-1506
    ALA017 Alalakh3264 23 cal BCE 1605-1504 cal BCE 1614-1466
    ALA018 Alalakh3154 26 cal BCE 1490-1409 cal BCE 1497-1326
    ALA019 Alalakh3298 23 cal BCE 1613-1534 cal BCE 1625-1511
    ALA020 Alalakh3167 29 cal BCE 1493-1415 cal BCE 1502-1395
    ALA023 Alalakh3520 25 cal BCE 1892-1776 cal BCE 1921-1763
    ALA024 Alalakh3586 39 cal BCE 2010-1891 cal BCE 2111-1779
    ALA025 Alalakh3443 25 cal BCE 1862-1693 cal BCE 1877-1686
    ALA026 Alalakh3390 25 cal BCE 1736-1645 cal BCE 1744-1628
    ALA028 Alalakh3440 26 cal BCE 1858-1692 cal BCE 1877-1666
    ALA029 Alalakh3465 26 cal BCE 1873-1702 cal BCE 1880-1695
    ALA030 Alalakh3256 25 cal BCE 1605-1499 cal BCE 1612-1457
    ALA034 Alalakh3436 24 cal BCE 1763-1692 cal BCE 1874-1666
    ALA035 Alalakh3543 24 cal BCE 1930-1784 cal BCE 1948-1774
    ALA037 Alalakh3477 24 cal BCE 1876-1750 cal BCE 1882-1701
    ALA038 Alalakh3260 24 cal BCE 1605-1501 cal BCE 1613-1461
    ALA039 Alalakh3125 24 cal BCE 1431-1324 cal BCE 1448-1303
    ALA084 Alalakh3556 25 cal BCE 1941-1883 cal BCE 2006-1777
    ALA095 Alalakh3516 25 cal BCE 1889-1776 cal BCE 1913-1756
    ART001 Arslantepe3908 26 cal BCE 2465-2348 cal BCE 2470-2301
    ART004 Arslantepe4906 26 cal BCE 3696-3656 cal BCE 3758-3642
    ART005 Arslantepe4934 27 cal BCE 3757-3659 cal BCE 3770-3654
    ART009 Arslantepe4069 20 cal BCE 2826-2505 cal BCE 2834-2497
    ART010 Arslantepe4095 26 cal BCE 2835-2580 cal BCE 2857-2505
    ART011 Arslantepe4103 25 cal BCE 2839-2581 cal BCE 2859-2575
    ART012 Arslantepe4479 26 cal BCE 3327-3098 cal BCE 3338-3031
    ART014 Arslantepe4573 27 cal BCE 3369-3140 cal BCE 3492-3119
    ART015 Arslantepe4557 25 cal BCE 3363-3137 cal BCE 3369-3110
    ART017 Arslantepe4516 25 cal BCE 3346-3116 cal BCE 3351-3103
    ART018 Arslantepe4573 25 cal BCE 3368-3142 cal BCE 3491-3122
    ART019 Arslantepe4623 24 cal BCE 3494-3363 cal BCE 3499-3355
    ART020 Arslantepe4536 25 cal BCE 3356-3124 cal BCE 3362-3105
    ART022 Arslantepe4681 75 cal BCE 3623-3370 cal BCE 3642-3137
    ART023 Arslantepe4563 25 cal BCE 3365-3139 cal BCE 3486-3117
    ART024 Arslantepe4614 24 cal BCE 3491-3361 cal BCE 3497-3352
    ART026 Arslantepe4491 26 cal BCE 3331-3103 cal BCE 3340-3096
    ART027 Arslantepe4546 25 cal BCE 3360-3130 cal BCE 3365-3108
    ART032 Arslantepe4568 21 cal BCE 3366-3146 cal BCE 3484-3124
    ART038 Arslantepe4534 27 cal BCE 3356-3121 cal BCE 3361-3105
    ART039 Arslantepe4916 27 cal BCE 3702-3658 cal BCE 3762-3646
    ART042 Arslantepe5014 29 cal BCE 3925-3715 cal BCE 3941-3708
    CBT001 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4725 20 cal BCE 3626-3384 cal BCE 3631-3379
    CBT002 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4809 30 cal BCE 3642-3536 cal BCE 3651-3525
    CBT003 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
    CBT004 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4765 20 cal BCE 3632-3526 cal BCE 3635-3521
    CBT005 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4713 21 cal BCE 3622-3382 cal BCE 3628-3377
    CBT010 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
    CBT011 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
    CBT013 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4796 23 cal BCE 3638-3536 cal BCE 3642-3526
    CBT014 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4767 28 cal BCE 3633-3525 cal BCE 3639-3385
    CBT015 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4787 28 cal BCE 3637-3533 cal BCE 3642-3522
    CBT016 Çamlıbel Tarlası 4828 29 cal BCE 3651-3539 cal BCE 3691-3528
    CBT017 Çamlıbel Tarlası not dated due to sample preservation restrictions
    CBT018 Büyükkaya663530cal BCE 5617-5546cal BCE 5626-5515
    ETM001 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM004 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM005 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM006 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM010 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM012 Ebla3997 25 cal BCE 2565-2476 cal BCE 2572-2470
    ETM014 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM016 Ebla3605 25 cal BCE 2015-1925 cal BCE 2026-1896
    ETM018 Ebla3667 26 cal BCE 2129-1981 cal BCE 2135-1964
    ETM023 EblaNo collagen preservation
    ETM026 EblaNo collagen preservation
    IKI002 İkiztepe4488 22 cal BCE 3329-3102 cal BCE 3338-3095
    IKI009 İkiztepe4552 22 cal BCE 3361-3137 cal BCE 3366-3115
    IKI012 İkiztepe4557 22 cal BCE 3362-3139 cal BCE 3368-3118
    IKI016 İkiztepe4671 22 cal BCE 3512-3374 cal BCE 3518-3371
    IKI017 İkiztepe4580 26 cal BCE 3484-3198 cal BCE 3494-3124
    IKI024 İkiztepe5080 27 cal BCE 3950-3806 cal BCE3958-3799
    IKI030 İkiztepe4635 26 cal BCE 3497-3365 cal BCE 3512-3357
    IKI034 İkiztepe4623 26 cal BCE 3494-3362 cal BCE 3500-3352
    IKI036 İkiztepe4700 26 cal BCE 3619-3378 cal BCE 3627-3374
    IKI037 İkiztepe4748 29 cal BCE 3631-3520 cal BCE 3635-3382
    IKI038 İkiztepe4738 26 cal BCE 3631-3386 cal BCE 3633-3381
    KRD001 Tell Kurdu6783 23 cal BCE 5710-5662 cal BCE 5720-5640
    KRD002 Tell Kurdu6044 22 cal BCE 4991-4911 cal BCE 5005-4849
    KRD003 Tell Kurdu6739 23 cal BCE 5661-5630 cal BCE 5706-5622
    KRD004 Tell Kurdu6766 25 cal BCE 5703-5639 cal BCE 5714-5632
    KRD005 Tell Kurdu6838 24 cal BCE 5739-5676 cal BCE 5756-5664
    KRD006 Tell KurduNo collagen preservation
    TIT021 TItriş-Höyük3799 25 cal BCE 2285-2156 cal BCE 2331-2141
    POT002 Polutepe6491 26 cal BCE 5486-5386 cal BCE 5508-5376
    MTT001 Mentesh Tepe6802 27 cal BCE 5717-5670 cal BCE 5729-5644
    ALX002 Alkhantepe4950 23 cal BCE 3765-3696 cal BCE 3776-3661


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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    How do u explain with that, Afro-Asiatic language family origin?
    In my view, after reading a bit of Ehret's hypothesis and taking my own conclusions from aDNA evidences, Proto-Afro-Asiatic was a Northeastern African language associated with cultures from the Early Mesolithic Egypt/Northeastern Sudan, with a population that was basically an intermediary group between the Taforalt/Iberomaurusian and the Natufians.

    Natufians had ~27% Taforalt-like ancestry and a lot of E1b1b, especially E-M78, of Northeastern African origin, so I think Proto-Afro-Asiatic expanded to the Levant still during the Mesolithic. Thus Proto-Afro-Asiatic languages evolved and spread to the entire Levant and later to Mesopotamia and maybe other parts of West Asia via Neolithic Levanitnes. In Northern Mesopotamia, the language of Neolithic Levantines would've prevailed, but genetically they would have got an even higher ammount of ANF and a lot of CHG and Iran_Neolithic that they didn't have before. The rest of the Levant would've remained more Levant_Neolithic-like or acquired a more ANF-like makeup, but in the Late Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age a large influx of CHG and Iran_Neolithic happened, but not directly - it came with Northern Mesopotamians i.e. Proto-Semitic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
    well, i paid the 31 usd because the video indicated that they had shulaveri-shomu... When in fact, not really.
    But it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
    The good:
    A. They do have dna from a boy in mentesh tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract mtdna. So u7 is added to the mtdna of shulaveri that have h2+152, h15a1, i1 and now u7.
    B. They do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on shulaveri-shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.

    The bad:
    The shulaveri boy does plot on pca as a bit of a stand out being a mix of barcin and chg . But even while they state that the shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in polutepe, south of baku (azerbaijan) that should have much more iran_n (as opposed to other chg types).

    Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
    Anyone here can help with the shulaveri boy bam file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).
    wait a minute ... So in the sample from shulaveri there’s also the mtdna h15 ... In other words .. My mtdna ahha
    h15 from georgia , caucasus so....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Arslantepe site in moden day south turkey
    Hmm that makes it even more interesting.

    Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Are you speaking of the R1a1b2 sample?

    One sample with "maybe" 6-7% "Progress_Steppe" like ancestry imho may not mean very much at the end of the day.

    At that level, it could be "shared" ancestry.

    After this spate of papers I am becoming more convinced that most of the steppe ancestry in the Near East may come via Southeastern Europe, or more precisely Sardinia and/or the Aegean, and/or Southern Italy.

    Look at what some are calling the "Mitanni" samples, i.e. the Central Asian admixed ones: if they were Mitanni, then the Mitanni had very little steppe by the time they arrived in the Near East.

  10. #35
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Hmm that makes it even more interesting.

    Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.
    Are you talking about Arslantepe R1b ? How did you model him ? He has exactly zero steppe-like ancestry. Btw, I am not the only one saying this. If there was steppe-related ancestry in this sample, the paper would have mentioned it.

    I used everything steppe-related from Progress to Yamnaya in the source:

    Bildschirmfoto 2020-05-29 um 18.33.07.png

    I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Are you talking about Arslantepe R1b ? How did you model him ? He has exactly zero steppe-like ancestry. Btw, I am not the only one saying this. If there was steppe-related ancestry in this sample, the paper would have mentioned it.

    I used everything steppe-related from Progress to Yamnaya in the source:

    Bildschirmfoto 2020-05-29 um 18.33.07.png

    I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).
    No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:

    Target
    Distance | ADC: 0.25x
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En
    RUS_Progress_En
    WHG
    RUS_Karelia_HG
    GEO_CHG
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    Levant_PPNB
    MNG_Hovsgol_BA
    MAR_EN
    KEN_Pastoral_N
    TZA_Pemba_600BP
    KAZ_Botai
    RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
    RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584
    0,0331234
    58,8
    0
    6,4
    0
    0
    20,4
    8,6
    5,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0


    I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

    By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).
    Maybe because Iran_Chalcolithic, particularly as far from the "core" of Iran as Hajji Firuz (which is really almost Transcaucasia), was already far too mixed to indicate adequately how much the local genetic makeup was changed by the influx of "INF proper" ancestry?

    Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_PPNB
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323 0.04428460 26.0 15.2 35.8 23.0
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241 0.03663206 28.2 18.4 29.6 23.8
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349 0.03006893 23.6 24.6 32.8 19.0
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351 0.04362354 21.2 24.4 25.6 28.8
    Average 0.03865228 24.8 20.6 30.9 23.6

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is Figure 3A/B from the paper (PCA Plots) from Skourtanioti et al 2020.


    Skourtanioti_etal_2020_Figure3a.jpgSkourtanioti_etal_2020_Figure3B.jpg


    Regards

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:

    Target
    Distance | ADC: 0.25x
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En
    RUS_Progress_En
    WHG
    RUS_Karelia_HG
    GEO_CHG
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    Levant_PPNB
    MNG_Hovsgol_BA
    MAR_EN
    KEN_Pastoral_N
    TZA_Pemba_600BP
    KAZ_Botai
    RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
    RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584
    0,0331234
    58,8
    0
    6,4
    0
    0
    20,4
    8,6
    5,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0


    I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

    By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D
    Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

    I got them from "G25 datasheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Hmm that makes it even more interesting.

    Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

    from the paper :

    We observe the
    most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
    groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
    H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
    dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
    the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
    Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
    2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
    nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
    extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
    ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
    rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
    V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
    Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
    associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
    Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
    R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
    there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
    Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe

  16. #41
    Regular Member Anfänger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Maybe because Iran_Chalcolithic, particularly as far from the "core" of Iran as Hajji Firuz (which is really almost Transcaucasia), was already far too mixed to indicate adequately how much the local genetic makeup was changed by the influx of "INF proper" ancestry?

    Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_PPNB
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323 0.04428460 26.0 15.2 35.8 23.0
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241 0.03663206 28.2 18.4 29.6 23.8
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349 0.03006893 23.6 24.6 32.8 19.0
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351 0.04362354 21.2 24.4 25.6 28.8
    Average 0.03865228 24.8 20.6 30.9 23.6
    Yes could be because it is too mixed but they could have mentioned it at least. This ancestry is key to everything related to DNA in the Middle East. I disagree that this is Transcaucasian because this northern Iran(very much like other IranChalcolithics) and/or likely unsampled northern Mesopotamian Chalcolithic ancestry penetrates as far north as Maykop(30-40%) while there is no relevant gene flow from Transcaucasia south. It is like talking about Yamnaya ancestry but only in terms of EHG and CHG. Btw, it even reaches Italy and Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?
    Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.

    I got them from "G25 datasheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.
    Wow already? That was REALLY fast. I confess I have to thank "him" for this work, even though I often take different conclusions when I do my own models. :-D

  18. #43
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

    from the paper :

    We observe the
    most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
    groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
    H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
    dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
    the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
    Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
    2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
    nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
    extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
    ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
    rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
    V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
    Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
    associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
    Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
    R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
    there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
    Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe
    As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

    I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:

    Target
    Distance | ADC: 0.25x
    Anatolia_Barcin_N
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En
    RUS_Progress_En
    WHG
    RUS_Karelia_HG
    GEO_CHG
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    Levant_PPNB
    MNG_Hovsgol_BA
    MAR_EN
    KEN_Pastoral_N
    TZA_Pemba_600BP
    KAZ_Botai
    RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
    RUS_Kolyma_Meso
    Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584
    0,0331234
    58,8
    0
    6,4
    0
    0
    20,4
    8,6
    5,8
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0
    0


    I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).

    By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D
    Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?

  20. #45
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, I also get non-negligible Progress_Eneolithic-like admixture in models, even using some CHG and Iran_N-rich samples, for aDNA samples from Chalcolithic Armenia all the way to Chalcolithic and Bronze Age South-Central Asia, including Bronze Age Hajji Firuz and Chalcolithic Tepe Hissar (northeastern Iran). I don't know if that really means something, but it should be more investigated, because earlier samples from Iran do not have that. Considering the very archaic and divergent nature of Anatolian IE, my expectation is that we'll find its source in a very ancient migration out of the steppe to some place that was far enough for Early PIE to evolved in total independence from other PIE dialects, leading to the weird child that is Anatolian IE.



    :-D
    And huge chunks of Anatolia wound up speaking Anatolian IE languages with the only genetic trace in Anatolia being this small percent of ancestry in one sample? I mean, I know there's not much "Hun" in Hungarians, but it would still be pretty extraordinary.

  21. #46
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I thought; thanks, kingjohn. There's no evidence in any of these new papers for early steppe incursion into the Near East.

    I was thinking of the Balkans route, but that doesn't show up either in early periods.
    indeed
    the obsession with the steppe is amazing
    like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....

  22. #47
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    indeed
    the obsession with the steppe is amazing
    like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....
    Civilized and steppe is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

    "Civilization" means a very specific thing in the history of the world, which many of the people in this "hobby" seem not to have read about.

    The first agriculture, the first irrigation systems, the first domesticated animals (other than the horse), the first metallurgy, especially bronze metallurgy, the first actual cities, the first writing, the first empires, all are from the Near East, with some perhaps from the Neolithic societies of southeastern Europe.

    The "civilized" aspects of Indo-European culture were learned from others. I'll give them the domestication of the horse, but I think even the cart came from Europe.

    I say this as the daughter of a U-152 man and a U2e2 mother, and as someone with a respectable amount of "steppe" autosomal ancestry myself. Facts are facts, however.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    indeed
    the obsession with the steppe is amazing
    like there can't be civilized culture without steppe admixture .....
    Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

    This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you have the precise date for this sample quickly to hand?
    Unfortunately I don't. I also wish someone knew it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arslantepe

    from the paper :

    We observe the
    most common male lineages J1a, J2a, J2b, and G2a in all spatiotemporal
    groups of the region. Alongside the less frequent lineages
    H2 and T1a, these all form part of the genetic legacy that
    dates to the Neolithic or was already present in the region during
    the Upper Paleolithic (Wang et al., 2019; Lazaridis et al., 2016;
    Jones et al., 2015; Feldman et al., 2019; Broushaki et al.,
    2016). A few notable exceptions provide rather anecdotal but
    nonetheless important evidence for long distance mobility and
    extended Y-haplogroup diversity. For example, individual
    ART038 carries Y-haplotype R1b-V1636 (R1b1a2), which is a
    rare clade related to other early R1b-lineages, such as R1b-
    V88 that was found in low frequency in Neolithic Europe (e.g.,
    Haak et al., 2015) and R1b-Z2103—the main Y-lineage that is
    associated with the spread of ‘‘steppe ancestry’’ across West
    Eurasia during the early Bronze Age. However, R1b-V1636 and
    R1b-Z2103 lineages split long before (17 kya) and therefore
    there is no direct evidence for an early incursion from the
    Pontic steppe during the main era of Arslantepe
    Well, I think they got it a bit wrong that R1b-Z2103 is "the main Y-lineage that is associated with the spread of 'steppe ancestry' across West Eurasia during the early Bronze Age". Much of that expansion accompanied the spread of R1a-M417 and R1b-L51, not Z2103, though that was indeed the main lineage found in the mature phase of Yamnaya.

    Strange that they would miss that...

    I'm not sure if these data have been confirmed or corrected later, but according to this haplogroup assignment of aDNA samples from that Greater Caucasus paper (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=202340943), R1b-V1636 was the Y-lineage of the two individuals from the Progress archaeological site in the Eneolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe as well as the Y-lineage of an individual from the Yamnaya culture in the piedmont of the Caucasus, i.e. broadly the same region of the earlier Eneolithic Steppe people.

    The spread of a population with a higher CHG:EHG ratio in comparison with the Khvalynsk and Sredny Stog further north is almost certain to have occurred between the Eneolithic and the EBA of the Yamnaya culture, and it fits really well the spread of a population pretty similar (autosomally) to the Progress Eneolithic Steppe people. And, apparently, R1b-V1636 was present in people who were genetically similar to them.

    Finally it is true the divergence between Z2103 and V1636 is really old, but the LMRCA of V1636 actually dates to the Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic, i.e. 6600 YBP, only a few centuries before V1636 was in Progress in the southernmost part of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

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