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Thread: Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, N.Levant & S. Caucasus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.
    I wasn't referring to you, Riverman.

    That was, however, certainly the boast from some quarters: gene flow from the south was strictly female mediated. I believe another one was: no yDna "J" will be found on the steppe. I once said some people are so often wrong that you could fill the phone directory of a small city with their wrong predictions. I stand by it.

    I have a prodigious memory for things which I consider noteworthy, and when I don't I have copious screen shots, so the re-writing of history doesn't work.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I wasn't referring to you, Riverman.

    That was, however, certainly the boast from some quarters: gene flow from the south was strictly female mediated. I believe another one was: no yDna "J" will be found on the steppe. I once said some people are so often wrong that you could fill the phone directory of a small city with their wrong predictions. I stand by it.

    I have a prodigious memory for things which I consider noteworthy, and when I don't I have copious screen shots, so the re-writing of history doesn't work.
    Ok, I just thought its important to say anyway and want to add another one, namely that I believe and do so for quite some time, that in the earliest Lower Don settlements, which kicked off the first steppe people transformation, haplogroup J might have been equal or even dominant. That really changed only when the local hunter-fisher lineages took over and with every expansion that followed the small remains of Caucasian lineages largely disappeared. But I really think that J made it to the crucial Lower Don area, similar to the farmers further West. They contributed cultural innovations and women, but couldn't stand their ground against the local hunters, which just took up the gift of cultural and genetic innovations and profited from it big time in the steppe people's expansion that followed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ok, I just thought its important to say anyway and want to add another one, namely that I believe and do so for quite some time, that in the earliest Lower Don settlements, which kicked off the first steppe people transformation, haplogroup J might have been equal or even dominant. That really changed only when the local hunter-fisher lineages took over and with every expansion that followed the small remains of Caucasian lineages largely disappeared. But I really think that J made it to the crucial Lower Don area, similar to the farmers further West. They contributed cultural innovations and women, but couldn't stand their ground against the local hunters, which just took up the gift of cultural and genetic innovations and profited from it big time in the steppe people's expansion that followed.
    for eastern Europe, there is a gap between Sungir/Vestonice cluster (some 32 ka) and the arrival of R1 EHG clades (some 15 ka)
    I would guess the Y-DNA in that period in eastern Europe was I, and if not it was J - but not the J like in Transcaucasia that was admixed with Basal Eurasian to transform into Dzudzuana
    not that it matters much, the Y-DNA of that period in eastern Europe went extinct
    but certainly the mtDNA (subclades of U5, U4, etc.) survived, because EHG is +/- 25 % ANE admixed with 75 % WHG

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    for eastern Europe, there is a gap between Sungir/Vestonice cluster (some 32 ka) and the arrival of R1 EHG clades (some 15 ka)
    I would guess the Y-DNA in that period in eastern Europe was I, and if not it was J - but not the J like in Transcaucasia that was admixed with Basal Eurasian to transform into Dzudzuana
    not that it matters much, the Y-DNA of that period in eastern Europe went extinct
    but certainly the mtDNA (subclades of U5, U4, etc.) survived, because EHG is +/- 25 % ANE admixed with 75 % WHG
    Perhaps the other way around: 75% ANE and 25% WHG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
    "EHGs are believed to have been of about 75% Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) descent"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian
    "Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE"

    Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2016:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/

    Iran Neo would be 50% ANE, while CHG would be 36%. Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2018:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Perhaps the other way around: 75% ANE and 25% WHG.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
    "EHGs are believed to have been of about 75% Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) descent"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian
    "Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE"

    Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2016:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/

    Iran Neo would be 50% ANE, while CHG would be 36%. Supposedly from Lazaridis et al. 2018:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1
    the EHG are circa 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
    Reality is however that ANE itself can be modeled as derived circa 75% gravettian and the rest ANA.
    Since gravettian can be considered an older layer of WHG ( proto WHG) at the end EHG is indeed something like 75/80% WHG and the rest something related to Afontonova Gora

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    Interesting data on Greek Thrace, more I2 and R1a than the rest of Greece. Do we have any info on the clades? Are they Slavic clades? I would be interested in the original study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    the EHG are circa 40/50% WHG and the rest ANE
    Reality is however that ANE itself can be modeled as derived circa 75% gravettian and the rest ANA.
    Since gravettian can be considered an older layer of WHG ( proto WHG) at the end EHG is indeed something like 75/80% WHG and the rest something related to Afontonova Gora
    I'm taking a look to the related paper now, and I see you guys were discussing it few time ago: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2

    ED: I could not find this modeling involving Gravettian. Do you have the source in hand?

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    WHG - Villabruna cluster - is proto-Gravettian, almost without admixture
    El Miron cluster - 15 ka Goyet Magdalenian - is Gravettian admixed with Aurignacian
    Vestonice cluster is Gravettian admixed with Paleolithic Kostenki
    Sungir is very similar to Vestonice

    In eastern Europe WHG females mixed with incoming ANE males to form EHG.
    Near the Caucasus incoming ANE/EHG mixed with Dzudzuana to form CHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I'm taking a look to the related paper now, and I see you guys were discussing it few time ago: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39844-What-do-you-think-about-the-latest-publication-on-the-Eurogenes-blog/page2

    ED: I could not find this modeling involving Gravettian. Do you have the source in hand?
    from Carlos Quiles's site

    but it is my fault. It seems that the western source is more similar to Goyet ( which is Aurignacian)
    here is the quote ( EWE stands for early west eurasian)

    Ancient North Eurasians (ANE): contributed to by ANS, an EWE source close to the Goyet cluster (ca. 75%) and an EEA population (ca. 25%).

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    from Carlos Quiles's site

    but it is my fault. It seems that the western source is more similar to Goyet ( which is Aurignacian)
    here is the quote ( EWE stands for early west eurasian)

    Ancient North Eurasians (ANE): contributed to by ANS, an EWE source close to the Goyet cluster (ca. 75%) and an EEA population (ca. 25%).
    G25 scaled models EHG as ~75% MA1 and ~25% Villabruna, and the % of MA1 increases with unscaled to ~85%.

    The following comes from https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    MA1 = Vestonice16 at 2.5% and AG3 at 97.5%.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    G25 scaled models EHG as ~75% MA1 and ~25% Villabruna, and the % of MA1 increases with unscaled to ~85%.

    The following comes from https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    MA1 = Vestonice16 at 2.5% and AG3 at 97.5%.

    It is ok but I could never make sense how can you model Malta with Afontonova Gora and then Afontonova Gora with Malta and besides shouldn't we model every cluster with something older than that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    It is ok but I could never make sense how can you model Malta with Afontonova Gora and then Afontonova Gora with Malta and besides shouldn't we model every cluster with something older than that?
    They're attempts, the best models for testing possible mixtures. The conclusion, more importantly, is basically that AG3 and MA1 are very similar. Indeed, the p-value is low even comparing them directly (N=1). Check Table S3.1 from the link I provided in a previous thread, for example.

    The paper also states openly:
    "We see that (MA1, AG3), the members of the 'Mal’ta cluster' are a clade"

    And it continues:
    "(MA1, AG3) and (Anatolia_N, Dzudzuana) are modeled as having most ancestry from each other(and we cannot reject in the N=1 analysis that they are a simple clade)."

    In all attempts AG3 accounts for the most part of MA1 ancestry, and vice-versa. The lowest p-value for MA1 involves Vestonice16, but a very low contribution anyway, at least compared to AG3.

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    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB37213

    BAM files are up, but where can I find the full archeological context for the samples?
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB37213

    BAM files are up, but where can I find the full archeological context for the samples?
    Hi Jovialis. Can you do anything with those bam files?... Like checking the MTT001 sample :)))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Interesting, i think the eastern route hypothesis for IE Anatolian languages is dead. One R1b-V1636 sample without steppe ancestry is a very weak argument for the eastern route. I don't know about the western route but in some of my models even BMAC picks up steppe-like ancestry. I don't know what this means. Was there maybe a migration from the eneolithic steppe to BMAC ? If there was where are the relevant steppe Y-Haplogroups in BMAC ?

    I got them from "G25 datasTheed ancient scaled". "He" is very fast in converting the BAM files into easy accessible format.
    There is no real Steppe ancestry (Steppe in the sense of Steppe Bronze Age Indo European) in any of these samples. For the millions time if you wanted to you could even model mesolithic Iran_Hotu samples as partly Steppe admixed. All of this is just shared ancestry.

    That is what all these genetic studies try to explain us. The Anatolian samples do not have excess Steppe ancestry. Excess in the sense that it could not be explained by admixture from surrounding populations.

    BMAC just borders the Steppe I would have been much more suprised if there was no Steppe ancestry in BMAC. And it is much more likely that this Steppe like ancestry predates the arrival of proto Indo_Iranian speakers.


    So I don't know how the absence of excess Steppe ancestry kills the eastern route theory, while in reality the Western route theory should show us much more excess Steppe admixture. That is because the route the Balkan theory gives us had excessive EHG admixture.



    In short: Not every Steppe related signal means Steppe admixture. It is much more likely shared ancestry because it does not exceed the "Steppe" signal we find in the surrounding cultures. That is why Lazaridis and co. wrote in their earlier study that the Hittite sampels can be modeled as Anatolian_Neolithic + something Calcolthic/Bronze Age Caucasus like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Nonsense. That sounds a bit paranoid to be honest. The thing is that Anatolia SPOKE Indo-European languages as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and the IE languages spoken there happen to have been the most divergent and arguably archaic of all IE language groups, which suggests a migration that took place before that of the ancestors of other, less deeply diverged IE groups. So, there is obviously a search for some kind of connection to the steppe because all the other IE branches can be linked to the arrival of steppe admixture in the regions where they are spoken.

    This matter has nothing to do with civilization, it's all about linguistics. You don't see people looking for evidences of steppe admixture in the Levant, Egypt or the China, because there is simply no evidence those areas spoke mainly IE languages at some time in the Bronze Age.
    No, it suggests a split from the core of Indo Europeans before the others. This could be explained in two ways.

    A: Anatolian and "Steppe Indo European" splitted up somewhere unknown with Steppe Indo European moving into the Steppes. and Proto Anatolian into Anatolia.

    B: P-Anatolia split up from the core of the Indo Europeans on the Steppes first and moved early into Anatolia.

    Genetics rather supports A. And there is not really any archeological support for B either. Any archeological influence we know of during the Neolithic to early Bronze Age is from South to North.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-06-20 at 14:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I beg to differ too that they're only interested in steppe in Anatolia because they're just interested in linguistics. You can't be that naive, Ygorcs. They want the Mitanni to have brought steppe to other areas of the Near East too, and they used to make it much more clear that the reason was to claim the accomplishments of all those people for their own ancestors. Some idiot once told me the Sumerians were probably Indo-Europeans, a well-respected idiot by others, btw. Why do you think tens of thousands of posts were written trying to prove that the ancient Greeks and Romans were Nordics? Maybe you weren't around then?
    Let me tell you something.
    One of the biggest attraction of Steppe Indo_Iranians such as Scythians, Sarmatians and Cimmerians is down to the fact that they are related to the Mitanni/Medes/Parthians and Old Persians/Sassanids.

    The interests in Scythians, especially in Europe grew by the fact that they are a link between Central- North Europeans and these old civilizations.

    And this is why in the past some circles tried their hardest to display these ancient people as more "northern " looking as their modern counterparts. And Scythians gave them some arguing points. Since Steppe Scythians had a fair appearance, so must have the Iranic people of the ancient Near East have looked like.

    There is not much doubt left that the Proto Indo_Iranian speakers derive from the Steppes. But to assume the Old Persians and Medes looked like Srubna, Sintashta or Corded Ware people is very far fetched.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-06-20 at 14:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Dear lord!. - If this can be used as an argument... then all Dna data is irrelevant, because leaps of 800 years is all around the papers published.

    Really, Some of us can state stuff like that here, but someone who does this thinking process on his blog that is supposed to be an analytical stance on published papers.... makes little sense, indeed.
    Theoretically I could program a new app and become a billionair. It is "possible" but is it likely?

    This is the way they argue. They present you one of the most unlikely conclusions as the best explanation. Not only Carlos but some other people too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I never said that. Men and women came to the steppe, both from the West (Neolithics) as well as from the South East (Caucasian HG and early Neolithics) but mostly female lineages survived after the steppe hunter clans took over and expanded from the Lower Don Culture horizon in all directions.
    Only one clan of R1b z203 survived among the Yamnaya and it had nothing to do with the possibility that it is a Steppe lineage. Remember these guys also took over from the other "Hunter" clans of R1b and likely even some other clans of Z203 had lost the bet too. What we see on these Steppe samples is, that we are dealing with very tribal patriachal clans. The richest most influental clan gets all the ladies and all the land. The R1a dudes did lose out on the Khvalynsk/Yamnaya lottery as the J1 guys. This might be one of the bigger reasons why the Indo Europeans "expanded" so largerly. They were often basically immigrants in search of new land.

    This is why highly Steppe Indo European derived cultures are much more single Haplogroup dominated compared to Indo European cultures which settled in the South or do not derive from the Steppe at all.
    Last edited by Alan; 11-06-20 at 06:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Only one clan of R1b z203 survived among the Yamnaya and it had nothing to do with the possibility that it is a Steppe lineage. Remember these guys also took over from the other "Hunter" clans of R1b and likely even some other clans of Z203 had lost the bet too. What we see on these Steppe samples is, that we are dealing with very tribal patriachal clans. The richest most influental clan gets all the ladies and all the land. The R1a dudes did lose out on the Khvalynsk/Yamnaya lottery as the J1 guys. This might be one of the bigger reasons why the Indo Europeans "expanded" so largerly. They were often basically immigrants in search of new land.

    This is why highly Steppe Indo European derived cultures are much more single Haplogroup dominated compared to Indo European cultures which settled in the South or do not derive from the Steppe at all.
    Funny, before reading your comment I wrote this:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post605435

    I said the same as you did on various occasions, but still what I said before is relevant, because when the steppe hunters took over in the Lower Don region, became dominant in the Lower Don Culture, which is absolutely crucial and central for everything, they largely replaced J-/Caucasian lineages which might have been stronger before, even dominant. That takeover made the EHG language dominant the R1-lineages. J survived, but on a much lower level than before, so their chances to win in the next round of the "lottery" by being the dominant male and clan, was drastically reduced. The difference between R1a-Sredny Stog and R1b-Yamnaya was that the first were in the West, became more like their Western neighbours, more settled, and the Yamnaya specialised on the steppe. This made them stronger and able to push, but the Western groups were the better settlers and culture builders, which made their impact even much bigger, especially because they evaded the Yamnaya pressure by moving into even better and culturally more developed lands, with many people, so many women and a lot of chances to develop on. They learned their lesson, moved up the North and in a clock like movement replaced Yamnaya with Abashevo/Sintashy/Andronovo after their technological upgrade.

    But if the hunter lineages wouldn't have been the winners in the LDC, probably we would speak a Caucasian-related language and a lot more people would be J, or even more likely, they would have taken a different path altogether and everything would be different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    ok angela
    i check myself again
    i saw this
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sGI/edit#gid=0
    i never knew that one of the barcin individuals was e1b1b1 - bar11
    if he was e-L618 or than there could be option of entrance from anatolia to balkan and the rest of europe
    The only Early Neolithic Culture influenced by Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like people was Cardial Pottery Culture. Surpsingly, E-L618 was found in Croatia in a Cardial site, and then the actual mutation of E-V13 in Spain in a Cardial site aswell. This mimicks well archeological data which says Cardial landed on North-Western Greece then Albania (I have heard there is one or two Tosk Albanians with E-L618, probably we will find among Epirotan Greeks aswell) > Croatia > Italy (where the actual mutation of E-V13 might happened and moved north in Central Europe) and finally Spain where we have the actual oldest E-V13 find so far.


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    Maybe E-L618 (e-v13 ancestor) was coast hoping that could explain the distribution
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card...ardial_map.png
    Last edited by kingjohn; 12-06-20 at 14:32.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    The only Early Neolithic Culture influenced by Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like people was Cardial Pottery Culture. Surpsingly, E-L618 was found in Croatia in a Cardial site, and then the actual mutation of E-V13 in Spain in a Cardial site aswell. This mimicks well archeological data which says Cardial landed on North-Western Greece then Albania (I have heard there is one or two Tosk Albanians with E-L618, probably we will find among Epirotan Greeks aswell) > Croatia > Italy (where the actual mutation of E-V13 might happened and moved north in Central Europe) and finally Spain where we have the actual oldest E-V13 find so far.

    That's true, but I still think that E-V13 was either picked up in Cucuteni-Trypillia culture or the Northern Adriatic by steppe people and spread with some steppe people's expansions from then on. I guess that only very little of the original Cardial Ware related expansion survived. Also don't forget the Michelsberg results, which showed us an I2a:E1b alliance. Not sure how much of this survived, but it shows that different places can be considered for "the pick up". But the most likely scenario remains with the Carpathian region, Balkan second imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's true, but I still think that E-V13 was either picked up in Cucuteni-Trypillia culture or the Northern Adriatic by steppe people and spread with some steppe people's expansions from then on. I guess that only very little of the original Cardial Ware related expansion survived. Also don't forget the Michelsberg results, which showed us an I2a:E1b alliance. Not sure how much of this survived, but it shows that different places can be considered for "the pick up". But the most likely scenario remains with the Carpathian region, Balkan second imho.
    The Bronze Age North Serbian samples had no E-V13, i really doubt we will see anything of E-V13 from Carpathes. Don't forget, Justinian Plague skewed the diversity in Balkans, most of founder effects are during that age, so we should expect different picture prior to that.

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    Maybe Angelita will get angry for going off-topic, she can move it to the appropriate topic so we don't fill with posts irrelevant with the title.

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