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ART038 R1b1a2 V1636
In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...the-Chalcolithic-and-Bronze-Age-in-the-Levant
This one is really interesting. Where and when is it from? R1b-V1636 was found IIRC in Chalcolithic Armenia as well as in the Chalcolithic Southern Pontic-Caspian Steppe (Progress/Vonyuchka), and some have already speculated it might have something to do with the early split of Anatolian IE from the rest of the IE family.
Well, I paid the 31 USD because the video indicated that they had Shulaveri-Shomu... when in fact, not really.
but it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
the Good:
a. they do have DNA from a boy in Mentesh Tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract Mtdna. So U7 is added to the MTdna of Shulaveri that have H2+152, H15a1, I1 and now U7.
b. they do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on Shulaveri-Shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.
the bad:
The Shulaveri boy does plot on PCA as a bit of a stand out being a mix of Barcin and CHG . but even while they state that the Shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in Polutepe, south of Baku (Azerbaijan) that should have much more Iran_N (as opposed to other CHG types).
Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
Anyone here can help with the Shulaveri boy BAM file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).
In this video (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092) one of the researchers involved in this new paper, Eirini Skourtanioti, explains that the big changes in the Northern Levant are likely to have come from an unsampled population in Northern Mesopotamia. I find that particularly exciting to know, because I have long thought that the most likely source of the Proto-Semitic expansion was not the Levant, let alone the southern Levant, but Northern Mesopotamia, on the crossroads between the Levant, Anatolia, Caucasus and Zagros. I had reached this conclusion in this thread some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...the-Chalcolithic-and-Bronze-Age-in-the-Levant
Thanks.
Do you know how much G2a2 is in the area today? I know that in the Levant as a whole it's not very frequent, is it?
Do you think they support the contention of the authors of a change in the Iron Age?
How do u explain with that, Afro-Asiatic language family origin?
well, i paid the 31 usd because the video indicated that they had shulaveri-shomu... When in fact, not really.
But it wasn't all to waste. So my first comments are.
The good:
A. They do have dna from a boy in mentesh tepe from 5500bc (so, date is good), but really could only extract mtdna. So u7 is added to the mtdna of shulaveri that have h2+152, h15a1, i1 and now u7.
B. They do give an explanation why they can't get their hands on shulaveri-shomu samples... The french have them (mostly) all.
The bad:
The shulaveri boy does plot on pca as a bit of a stand out being a mix of barcin and chg . But even while they state that the shulaveri boy was from a very different culture they bundle him with the baby in polutepe, south of baku (azerbaijan) that should have much more iran_n (as opposed to other chg types).
Anyway, too many meetings today, but will try to read carefully later.
Anyone here can help with the shulaveri boy bam file when it becomes available (would be much appreciated).
Arslantepe site in moden day south turkey
Hmm that makes it even more interesting.
Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.
Are you talking about Arslantepe R1b ? How did you model him ? He has exactly zero steppe-like ancestry. Btw, I am not the only one saying this. If there was steppe-related ancestry in this sample, the paper would have mentioned it.
I used everything steppe-related from Progress to Yamnaya in the source:
View attachment 12118
I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).
Target | Distance | ADC: 0.25x | Anatolia_Barcin_N | RUS_Khvalynsk_En | RUS_Progress_En | WHG | RUS_Karelia_HG | GEO_CHG | IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N | Levant_PPNB | MNG_Hovsgol_BA | MAR_EN | KEN_Pastoral_N | TZA_Pemba_600BP | KAZ_Botai | RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov | RUS_Kolyma_Meso |
Anatolia_Barcin_C:I1584 | 0,0331234 | 58,8 | 0 | 6,4 | 0 | 0 | 20,4 | 8,6 | 5,8 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
I don´t know why all this papers only mention Caucasus/Zagros,IranN or CHG, the real proximal source is Iran Chalcolithic and/or something related from unsampled Northern Mesopotamia. In the source Tab is CHG and IranN but the model picks up IranChalcolithic(IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C).
Target | Distance | Anatolia_Barcin_N | GEO_CHG | IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N | Levant_PPNB | |
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I2323 | 0.04428460 | • | 26.0 | 15.2 | 35.8 | 23.0 |
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4241 | 0.03663206 | • | 28.2 | 18.4 | 29.6 | 23.8 |
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4349 | 0.03006893 | • | 23.6 | 24.6 | 32.8 | 19.0 |
IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C:I4351 | 0.04362354 | • | 21.2 | 24.4 | 25.6 | 28.8 |
Average | 0.03865228 | • | 24.8 | 20.6 | 30.9 | 23.6 |
No, sorry I wasn't specific, I was talking about the Barcin_Chalcolithic sample, so Northwestern Anatolia. That wasn't R1b AFAIK. This is a model I've done:
Target Distance | ADC: 0.25x Anatolia_Barcin_N RUS_Khvalynsk_En RUS_Progress_En WHG RUS_Karelia_HG GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N Levant_PPNB MNG_Hovsgol_BA MAR_EN KEN_Pastoral_N TZA_Pemba_600BP KAZ_Botai RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov RUS_Kolyma_MesoAnatolia_Barcin_C:I1584 0,0331234 58,8 0 6,4 0 0 20,4 8,6 5,8 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
I just meant that it's interesting that the R1b-V1636 found in Chalcolithic Armenia and Chalcolithic Pontic-Caspian steppe just north of the North Caucasus was also found as far south as Southern Anatolia, and that even in northwestern Anatolia some ammount of steppe-related ancestry may have already been present that early (of course, as Angela says, it might have arrived there not directly, but indirectly via populations that had some of that kind of ancestry - in fact, that's exactly my present view about the arrival of Anatolian IE in Anatolia proper, just a people that descended partly, perhaps even minoritatily, from a Chalcolithic Steppe group).
By the way, where did you get the coordinates for this Arslantepe sample and others like it? I'd really like to "play" with some models on them. :-D
Hmm that makes it even more interesting.
Btw I know the heavy proportion of CHG (~45%) in it may skew the results a bit, but even using CHG as a distinct possible source it's quite intriguing that the Anatolia_Chalcolithic DNA sample has ~6-7% Progress_Steppe-like ancestry, whatever that really means.
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