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Thread: The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant (Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I don't remember which book I read it in but the book made the case that the Israelites were actually coastal people from Northern Saudi Arabia that went north through the desert to what is now Israel. It had convincing arguments, I just wish I remember what they were. I do remember telling my wife that I couldn't wait to tell our Jewish friends that they were Saudis after all.

    You have to interpret the data with caution. These Iron Age people from Meggido could be Phoenicians too and not necessarily Israelites. However, Arabs themselves appear to be originating in the Levant rather than in the Arab peninsular. Someone on anthrogenica noted that Meggido burns around the transition to the Iron age, but he thinks that a single sample during the IA that is also YDNA J1 as expected, demonstrates continuity. In my opinion, there was some kind of invasion there.



    So when going by the Meggido Iron Age folks, these Arab Bedouins from the Negev desert and Jordan with their classical ethnic Arab look represent ancient people from Israel.










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    ^^I'm skeptical of that.

    Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

    The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

    If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

    I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

    I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I'm skeptical of that.

    Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

    The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

    If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

    I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

    I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.
    There is a reference in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 03-06-20 at 01:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is a reverence in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.
    God promised to make of his descendants a great nation, and the Old Testament mentions that by his twelve sons with an Egyptian wife his descendants were numerous, but they were separate from the children of Isaac.

    It always seemed unfair to me, but then I find a lot of the Old Testament unfair at the least and quite often disturbing. The choosing of Hagar as a "surrogate mother" was all Sarah's idea, and sanctioned by custom, but Hagar's behavior led to jealousy on the part of Sarah, and Ismael and his mother were cast out. It works well as a symbolic tale to explain the similarities between the two peoples but yet the enmity between them as well, which is what it was doubtless meant to do.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    i am not religious
    but i am not going to lie
    it feel pretty cool
    to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains
    and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
    to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
    (and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
    is with late antiquity romans )

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am not religious
    but i am not going to lie
    it feel pretty cool
    to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains
    and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
    to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
    (and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
    is with late antiquity romans )

    Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).
    you should check
    anthrogenica
    some users there run the snp calls of those ancient
    i am pretty sure your haplogroup was found in ancient remains somewhere
    r1b is extremely common haplogroup :)

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