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Thread: The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant (Agranat-Tamir et al. 2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I don't remember which book I read it in but the book made the case that the Israelites were actually coastal people from Northern Saudi Arabia that went north through the desert to what is now Israel. It had convincing arguments, I just wish I remember what they were. I do remember telling my wife that I couldn't wait to tell our Jewish friends that they were Saudis after all.

    You have to interpret the data with caution. These Iron Age people from Meggido could be Phoenicians too and not necessarily Israelites. However, Arabs themselves appear to be originating in the Levant rather than in the Arab peninsular. Someone on anthrogenica noted that Meggido burns around the transition to the Iron age, but he thinks that a single sample during the IA that is also YDNA J1 as expected, demonstrates continuity. In my opinion, there was some kind of invasion there.



    So when going by the Meggido Iron Age folks, these Arab Bedouins from the Negev desert and Jordan with their classical ethnic Arab look represent ancient people from Israel.










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    ^^I'm skeptical of that.

    Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

    The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

    If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

    I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

    I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I'm skeptical of that.

    Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

    The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

    If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.

    I'm not sure, but I think we agree that there was a back migration, if you will, from the Saudi peninsula and perhaps from Egypt up to the southern Levant with the expanse of Islam, and their input went into the Palestinians and Jordanians and perhaps a slightly different group into Iraq. We know from contemporaneous documents of Arab tribal movement north. The Lebanese held on to their religion and so perhaps didn't admix as much with them.

    I also agree it's not a good idea to overinterpret one sample from Iron Age Megiddo. Anyone who didn't know it before should know now that the Bronze and Iron Age Near East was a very "cosmopolitan" place. It pays to remember scripture. Lots of mentions of people from other parts of the world in what Christians call the Old Testament. There's Ruth from Moab, one of David's ancestors, or Uriah the Hittite,whom David sent to his death to hide his affair with Bathsheba, Delilah the Philistine, Esther and the Persian king Xerxes I and on and on. Whatever the literal truth of the Bible stories, there was oral memory of a hell of a lot of admixture.
    There is a reference in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 03-06-20 at 01:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is a reverence in the Book of Isaiah to Tayma or Tema, where the descendants of Ishmael’s son, Tema lived.
    God promised to make of his descendants a great nation, and the Old Testament mentions that by his twelve sons with an Egyptian wife his descendants were numerous, but they were separate from the children of Isaac.

    It always seemed unfair to me, but then I find a lot of the Old Testament unfair at the least and quite often disturbing. The choosing of Hagar as a "surrogate mother" was all Sarah's idea, and sanctioned by custom, but Hagar's behavior led to jealousy on the part of Sarah, and Ismael and his mother were cast out. It works well as a symbolic tale to explain the similarities between the two peoples but yet the enmity between them as well, which is what it was doubtless meant to do.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    i am not religious
    but i am not going to lie
    it feel pretty cool
    to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains
    and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
    to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
    (and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
    is with late antiquity romans )

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    i am not religious
    but i am not going to lie
    it feel pretty cool
    to carry y haplogroup that was present among those Canaanite remains
    and it show continue in the paternal y haplogroup of jews contrary
    to the total autosomal picture where we cluster with modern siiclians and greek islanders
    (and even if i put those samples in eurogenes k13 ancient tool in vahaduo my shortest distance /cluster
    is with late antiquity romans )

    Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).
    you should check
    anthrogenica
    some users there run the snp calls of those ancient
    i am pretty sure your haplogroup was found in ancient remains somewhere
    r1b is extremely common haplogroup :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I ran Megiddo Iron Age just for the heck of it.

    Just parenthetically, I honestly have to pinch myself; I am looking at the genetics of the people of Megiddo and Hazor, those almost mythical places I read about so often. :) I'm sure you've read scripture, but did you ever read "The Source" by Michener? He must have had genius researchers or some professors helping him out, because it's amazing how much he got right as a non-archaeologist.

    Looks like perhaps some significant gene flow from tribal Arabs going north during the invasion period might have occurred? So, maybe all that stuff wasn't propaganda after all. Of course, the Jews are far different too.

    Target: IronAgeMegiddoI4517
    Distance: 1.9161% / 1.91607142
    46.2 Lebanese_Christian
    30.2 Saudi
    6.6 Lebanese_Druze
    5.4 Yemenite_Jewish
    5.2 Laz
    5.0 Sephardic_Jewish
    0.8 French_Basque
    0.6 Papuan


    Distance to: IronAgeMegiddoI4517
    5.83624023 Palestinian
    7.47651657 Samaritan
    8.87532535 Jordanian
    8.90790660 Lebanese_Christian
    10.17634512 Bedouin
    10.71843272 Syrian
    11.74845522 Lebanese_Druze
    11.94831787 Lebanese_Muslim
    13.56100660 Nusayri
    14.99159098 Cyprian
    14.99159098 Greek_Cypriot
    16.15976176 Turk_Cypriot
    16.42481050 Tunisian_Jewish
    16.46080496 Kurdish_Jewish
    16.59787035 Egyptian
    16.71634529 Libyan_Jewish
    17.12021320 Iranian_Jewish
    18.52263210 Saudi
    18.55920526 Yemenite_Jewish
    19.46903182 Assyrian
    20.45469139 Sephardic_Jewish
    20.89022559 Greek_Dodecanese
    21.01150161 Greek_Cappadocian
    21.88697329 Algerian_Jewish
    22.08385609 Italian_Jewish

    Hi Angela, could you also you run this Iron Age 14517 Megiddo sample on G25? I'd like to see how his Natufian compenent looks and what other Component he has? Peninsular Arabs score very high Natufian and relatively small Anatolian on G25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Hi Angela, could you also you run this Iron Age 14517 Megiddo sample on G25? I'd like to see how his Natufian compenent looks and what other Component he has? Peninsular Arabs score very high Natufian and relatively small Anatolian on G25.
    Sorry, I never bought the G25 coordinates, so I can't use it.

    Perhaps someone else on the Board can run it for you. I'd be interested in the results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I'm skeptical of that.

    Leaving aside that physical appearance is not always a perfect match with what the genetics might predict, they don't look like Samaritans to me at all, a people with much less chiseled features, who at least practised Judaism, and some of whose members look quite Sephardic, at least, and I don't think you could find a more inbred population.

    The man in the video looks as if he has quite a bit of SSA as well, which doesn't surprise me with some Saudis given the amount of East African mtDna in them, but I don't think we can assume similar levels were in the Iron Age Jews.

    If I had to guess I think Iron Age Jews might have been quite Canaanite like, perhaps like more "southern" Lebanese Christians.
    I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.









    To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

    What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


    PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I found pictures of Saudi Jews. Believe it or not, there were Jews living in Saudi Arabia near the border to Yemen till in the 1947/48.









    To me they don't look like Samaritans or Christian Levantines. What do you think?

    What I find strange is the fact that Yemenite Jews appear not to match these Bronze Age/Iron Age Levantines like Saudi Bedouins do.


    PS: I had several times problems with logging in despite correct name and password. Therefore, I had to reset my password repeatedly. Why is that?
    I agree with you; I don't think these Saudi Jews look like Samaritans or even that much like Christian Levantines. They look like Bedouin to me, with the finer, more chiseled Bedouin features. Maybe it shouldn't be so surprising. Wherever Jews lived there was some intermixture with the locals, usually through absorption of local women. It's the same situation in the Yemen, or Iraq/Iran. Even with North African Jews, many of whom are descended from exiles from Al-Andalus, I think there's a more Southern European look than a real Levantine look to them.

    Gregory Fitoussi, a French actor of North African Jewish descent:love his look.


    Bernard Henri Levi:





    Bedouin have less Caucasus like ancestry, don't they? That might explain their more "Med" type features.

    As for the Yemenite Jews not matching as well, these isolated communities of Jews have practiced a lot of endogamy, so they're going to drift off on their own. Look at the Sardinians. In North Africa, each specific group has drifted apart from the others. Plus, Yemeni Jews absorbed a lot of SSA over the centuries. I wouldn't expect them to be good matches.

    I have problems logging in sometimes too; I don't know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Wow that's cool! I would like to find my Y-Haplogroup in one early Iranian too :).
    The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    The Hajji Firuz guy from the BA is Z2103 as are a bunch of Sintashta males. The latter are definitely related to Iranians although the former might be a photo Armenian or something.
    Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.
    That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    That's very high. Its kind of surprising that steppe ancestry is low in Iran relative to the frequency of R1a and R1b. On a related note do you think the Hajji Firuz Z2103 guy was an Armenian or some sort of Catacomb guy? I made a thread on the historic border between Iranian speakers and Armenians that might relate to this too.
    Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

    I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Population turnover after Iranian tribes arrived into Iran is something like 30-40% coming from Yaz-culture. There is a Iron Age sample from Turkmenistan he is very likely an early Iranian speaker. Iran didn´t have a source population coming directly from the steppe.

    I think he is an Iranian because his autosomal DNA is identical to modern Iranian people even if he is R1b. I think the Hassanlu Iron Age guy might be Armenian though. He has Y-DNA matches with two modern Armenians.
    That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

    Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

    That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    That's true. Intermediate people were likely absorbed.

    Hajji Firuz is Iranian austosomally? I thought he was steppe EMBA shifted.

    That region is historically a part of Media Atropatene even if some proto Armenian guys was found there no? Are both Hajji Firuz and Hassanlu east or west of the Zagros?
    This is the Hajji-Firuz R1b guy:
    Bildschirmfoto 2020-07-14 um 13.20.22.png

    Hassanlu and Hajji Firuz Tepe are just 10 km or so apart. The Hassanlu sample is from a time the site was Uratian, taking into account that he has Y-DNA matches with modern Armenians he might be a Proto-Armenian. Hajji Firuz site is at the borderzone of Media Atropatene. I guess samples from Hamedan(Ecbatana) the capital of Median empire would be more significant but there are non for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yep thanks for info, I did the R1b-Z2103 superpanel on yseg. They said my subclade downstream of Z2103 is unknown so I am not sure if it really is Iranian or something related to Catacomb guys fleeing south over the Caucasus. But In my particular ethnic group(Iranian Lurs) Z2103 is in 25-30% frequency so it could be possibly Iranian in origin.
    R1b-Z2103 is Cimmerian haplogroup, the original land of Cimmerians was in the west of Black sea, about 1,000 BC they migrated to Iran and Anatolia.



    In the 7th century BC Cimmerians conquered Ellipi kingdom in modern Luristan.

    If you are interested to know about the history of Iranian Lurs, I suggest that you read this great Persian article: https://www.sid.ir/fa/journal/ViewPaper.aspx?id=123386

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