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Thread: Genetic History of the Near East (Iron & Classical Ages) - Haber at al. 2020

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashraff View Post
    Hello Maciamo,
    What is your opinion on the E-V65 sample in Beirut Hellenic period?
    Thanks in advance!
    E-V65 is a North African lineage found from Egypt to Morocco. It is also found in Palestine, Lebanon, Greece, southern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia. Considering that the Levant was under Egyptian rule for nearly 500 years during the New Kingdom period (1550-1069 BCE), then that the Levant and Egypt remained a few more centuries on and off in the same political entity under Assyrian then Persian rule before Alexander's conquest, it is not that surprising that Egyptian lineages should have settled in Lebanon by then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Anyone know if these G2a2 lineages are found in Italy or Greece? They come from samples from Beirut in the Early Roman period.
    G2a2b-L30
    G2a2b1a2-M3302

    This one is from the Iron Age.
    G2a2a1a2-L91


    I wish so many population geneticist didn't totally ignore yDna.
    G2a2b-L30 is very old (TMRCA of 14400 ybp). It's the most common nowadays in Europe (especially the subclade G2a2b2a1-L140.
    G2a2a1a2-L91, Ötzi's, is also very old (TMRCA of 10400 ybp). As you know, it's more common in Sardinia, Corsica etc., but it's also found in Middle East.
    G2a2b1a2-M3302 (5800 ybp), under G-M406, is found in Russia, Armenia and Italy (Crotone and Cagliari) according to YFull (https://yfull.com/tree/G-M3302), and also in other European countries according to FTDNA Public Tree (https://www.familytreedna.com/public...G;name=G-M3302). G-M406 is present in places such Greece and South Italy, yes, but it's more concentrated in Turkey. According to Maciamo's map, there would be hotspots in what seems Dagestan and also in Levant. I don't know exactly when it arrived in Levant, but it was likely in Iron Age. No Gs from BA were found yet neither before that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    E-V65 is a North African lineage found from Egypt to Morocco. It is also found in Palestine, Lebanon, Greece, southern Italy, Sicily and Sardinia. Considering that the Levant was under Egyptian rule for nearly 500 years during the New Kingdom period (1550-1069 BCE), then that the Levant and Egypt remained a few more centuries on and off in the same political entity under Assyrian then Persian rule before Alexander's conquest, it is not that surprising that Egyptian lineages should have settled in Lebanon by then.
    Thank you for the answer, but don't you think it could be moved in either way via Mediterranean such as being transported by the Phoenicians in the times of Carthage? Is it possible?, if no, then why?

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    There is an Egyptian sample from a mother with her son from 500 BC in the Haber paper.


    The study suggests that the son of the Egyptian woman had a father who himself was Egyptian-Lebanese.

    "Thus, these results suggest that SFI-43 was an Egyptian woman and SFI-44 was her son from a man who himself had both Egyptian and Lebanese ancestries. The structure of this family in
    Lebanon highlights population movements and the heterogeneous society that existed at that time, but additional sampling is needed if we are to understand whether this cross-cultural mixing was common or whether our samples were exceptional."

    The genetic makeup of this Egyptian woman appears to be similar to those of the Abusir mummies. Surely we can't draw definite conclusions about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians from the Old or Middle Kingdom, especially in Upper Egypt from these samples alone.




    However, for now, it doesn't look good for the Afrocentrists and their Black Egypt myth who btw are much more present and get more support from the media, the film industry, and even universities to promote their openly anti-rational ideas. Something Nordicists can only dream of.

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    Very fascinating paper, I leave for a couple days, and I almost missed these intriguing discoveries.

    Goes to show, that because of so much mixing over time, using modern populations in DNA tests can be misleading.
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    I would bet in addition to the Anatolian/Caucasian ancestry from the Early Bronze Age, tests like MTA are also picking up this South-Eastern European-like admixture that entered Anatolia in the Iron and Classical ages. Though I don't think I have a direct connection with those people, there is just shared overlapping source ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashraff View Post
    Thank you for the answer, but don't you think it could be moved in either way via Mediterranean such as being transported by the Phoenicians in the times of Carthage? Is it possible?, if no, then why?
    If E-V65 was present in Lebanon during the Phoenician period then it could obviously have been among the lineages that settled in Carthage. But E-V65 is most common in Libya, which wasn't Phoenician, and is also found in Egypt and Morocco, which also weren't colonised by the Phoenicians.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 05-06-20 at 09:38. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    There is an Egyptian sample from a mother with her son from 500 BC in the Haber paper.


    The study suggests that the son of the Egyptian woman had a father who himself was Egyptian-Lebanese.

    "Thus, these results suggest that SFI-43 was an Egyptian woman and SFI-44 was her son from a man who himself had both Egyptian and Lebanese ancestries. The structure of this family in
    Lebanon highlights population movements and the heterogeneous society that existed at that time, but additional sampling is needed if we are to understand whether this cross-cultural mixing was common or whether our samples were exceptional."

    The genetic makeup of this Egyptian woman appears to be similar to those of the Abusir mummies. Surely we can't draw definite conclusions about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians from the Old or Middle Kingdom, especially in Upper Egypt from these samples alone.




    However, for now, it doesn't look good for the Afrocentrists and their Black Egypt myth who btw are much more present and get more support from the media, the film industry, and even universities to promote their openly anti-rational ideas. Something Nordicists can only dream of.
    Aw...I feel so bad for them.

    Anyone who is surprised that some Egyptians might show up in the Levant Bronze Age or even Iron Age, and some admixed people, perhaps, from the Zagros, hasn't done very much reading in the history and archaeology of the Near East. It was, to repeat myself, a very "cosmopolitan" place, a crossroads of the world. Equally, it's well known that there was a period when Egypt was ruled by people from closer to the south, and so they undoutedly carried some more SSA. It depends on the period and how many people came.

    It reminds me of the discussions of the remains analyzed in the Antonio et al paper. How on earth could people not expect that people from all over the known world wouldn't show up in the remains. In Late Antiquity, as just one example, you get the remains of people obviously on pilgrimage or something from the north, while in the Imperial Era some will come as merchants or travelers from all over the Mediterranean. Some would have settled, some not. A lot of the dna would get washed out if they did stay. It all depends on the numbers of the incomers.

    Once you get into more sophisticated civilizations population genetics gets much more complex. It's not like looking at a bunch of clearly defined Anatolian Neolithic people moving into areas where groups of clearly different Mesolithic hunter gatherers are living.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    That is a great question ashraf
    I am not sure even maciamo have answere
    For it....
    Most of e1b1b1 in lebanon are indeed e-m78 derived clades mainly e- v22
    There are also some e-m123 but mainly in the inland part much much less in costal lebanon ..
    To find e-v65 is much less expected this clade is more north west african iberian..( even present in basque groups: araba, western bizkaia )
    Thank you kingjohn for your answer, I have just seen it ,
    Your expectation is right, the V65 has interesting Variety in Iberia, based on latest results in either in FTDNA or Yfull in General. I have seen most of the Branches under Z1231>V65 seems like to be radiated out of North Spain 4000-5000 years ago as pr Yfull ages.
    Unfortunately V65 is not studied well in studies, because all the samples studied in peer reviewed papers focus only on those samples found in North Africa where they belong to a recent branch under V65 i.e E-V1174 aged 1500 years .this is why everyone says it is found only in North Africa, of course there must be ancient branches in North Africa such as PF2159, but it is either non-tested or extinct.
    I hope in future, the picture gets more and more clearer!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If E-V65 was present in Lebanon during the Phoenician period then it could obviously have been among the lineages that settled in Carthage. But E-V65 is most common in Libya, which wasn't Phoenician, and is also found in Egypt and Morocco, which also weren't colonised by the Phoenicians.
    Thanks for your answer, Yes, but the branches under E-V65 in Sardinia, Italy and Iberia are higher in Ages than those in North Africa, it exceeds 3000-4000 years, while in North Africa, 99% of the results belong to only one branch under E-V65 aged 1500 years, which indicates a Pan-mediterranian spread of E-V65 branch. I wish E-V65 is studied well in the future!

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