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Thread: R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 in the Bronze Age Levant (16th century BC)

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    3 members found this post helpful.

    R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 in the Bronze Age Levant (16th century BC)

    I think these are very important, so it is better that we talk about them in a separate thread.

    They have been found near Megiddo and it is believed they came from Zagros and/or South of Caucasus, so they could be Aryans. We can read about these things in different books, like this one:

    The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, page 60:


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    It seems the puzzle is being assembled, R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 are actually the main Proto-Indo-European haplogroups, other than Indo-Iranians, we also read about other Indo-Euroepan people:


    "Who We Are and How We Got Here", by David Reich:


    Ancient DNA available from this time in Anatolia shows no evidence of steppe ancestry similar to that in the Yamnaya. This suggests to me that the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia.

    "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans", by Lazaridis et al:


    We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus and Iran.
    Note that a combination of EHG-related and Iran-related ancestry also existed on the Eurasian steppe in roughly equal proportions. However, we cannot model Mycenaeans as a mixture of Anatolian Neolithic and steppe populations (Table S2.13). This is due to the fact that Mycenaeans have more Iran-related than EHG-related ancestry (Table S2.2).

    "The Arrival of Steppe and Iranian Related Ancestry in the Islands of the Western Mediterranean", by Fernandes, Mittnik, Olalde et al.:


    In Sicily, steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 BC, in part from Iberia; Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium BC, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean; and there was large-scale population replacement after the Bronze Age.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Without knowing the deep clade, R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 could have come from almost anywhere: straight from the Steppe, from the Balkans, from Central Asia, from Iran...

    Fortunately we have other clues from mtDNA from Tell Megiddo.

    - T2b7: was found in Bell Beaker Hungary and England, and in Bronze Age Poland and Bulgaria. Nowadays it is present in found in Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, France, Switzerland and Italy.

    - U2e1b (2 samples): the parent clade U2e1 was U2e1 found in Mesolithic Sweden, Estonia and Latvia, in Neolithic Ukraine, in Bell Beaker Czechia, in the Corded Ware and Unetice cultures, and in EBA Alsace. U2e1b was also present in Early Bronze Age England.

    All these are clearly European maternal lineages, and all three were found among the R1b Bell Beakers and in Bronze Age Central and Western Europe. But none were found among Steppe populations or among Indo-Iranians. So it looks like there was a migration of Indo-Europeans from Europe itself to Israel during the Bronze Age.

    Nevertheless it looks like it was not a direct migration from Europe as they are not purely European autosomally. They had previously mixed with a population carrying Y-haplogroup J1a2b as the above mtDNA samples have this Y-DNA. The R1b-M269 guy had mtDNA J2a2a2, which is also found in Italy and Turkey today. So my best guess, considering the period, is that those foreigners in Israel were Proto-Armenians who had originally come from the Balkans (R1a + R1b) and mixed with the J1a, J2a and E1b1b population of the South Caucasus, before launching an invasion of the Levant until Tell Megiddo.
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Shahmiri i have to apologize :) I just jumped over these outliers because the paper doesn't mention any steppe in them but connected them to the Caucasus. So my assumption was that they were the same people from earlier periods with more Caucasus ancestry.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Without knowing the deep clade, R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 could have come from almost anywhere: straight from the Steppe, from the Balkans, from Central Asia, from Iran...
    Fortunately we have other clues from mtDNA from Tell Megiddo.
    - T2b7: was found in Bell Beaker Hungary and England, and in Bronze Age Poland and Bulgaria. Nowadays it is present in found in Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, France, Switzerland and Italy.
    - U2e1b (2 samples): the parent clade U2e1 was U2e1 found in Mesolithic Sweden, Estonia and Latvia, in Neolithic Ukraine, in Bell Beaker Czechia, in the Corded Ware and Unetice cultures, and in EBA Alsace. U2e1b was also present in Early Bronze Age England.
    All these are clearly European maternal lineages, and all three were found among the R1b Bell Beakers and in Bronze Age Central and Western Europe. But none were found among Steppe populations or among Indo-Iranians. So it looks like there was a migration of Indo-Europeans from Europe itself to Israel during the Bronze Age.
    Nevertheless it looks like it was not a direct migration from Europe as they are not purely European autosomally. They had previously mixed with a population carrying Y-haplogroup J1a2b as the above mtDNA samples have this Y-DNA. The R1b-M269 guy had mtDNA J2a2a2, which is also found in Italy and Turkey today. So my best guess, considering the period, is that those foreigners in Israel were Proto-Armenians who had originally come from the Balkans (R1a + R1b) and mixed with the J1a, J2a and E1b1b population of the South Caucasus, before launching an invasion of the Levant until Tell Megiddo.
    I think the R1a guy will be interesting but maybe you know more Maciamo.
    This is as precise as I could find:

    I10768 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1b1a1a2

    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1a1a1b2e1:F17329-

    For the brothers also :
    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA_family4 R1a1a1:F3551/V8042/PF6231 (Thanks to kingjohn )

    The three Megiddo outliers with 25%-35% Steppe are :
    I2189(R1a guy) and I2220 (brother and sister), I10100

    These outliers have good chunk of steppe but later samples from the region have barely any steppe.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Without knowing the deep clade, R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 could have come from almost anywhere: straight from the Steppe, from the Balkans, from Central Asia, from Iran...
    Fortunately we have other clues from mtDNA from Tell Megiddo.
    - T2b7: was found in Bell Beaker Hungary and England, and in Bronze Age Poland and Bulgaria. Nowadays it is present in found in Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, France, Switzerland and Italy.
    - U2e1b (2 samples): the parent clade U2e1 was U2e1 found in Mesolithic Sweden, Estonia and Latvia, in Neolithic Ukraine, in Bell Beaker Czechia, in the Corded Ware and Unetice cultures, and in EBA Alsace. U2e1b was also present in Early Bronze Age England.
    All these are clearly European maternal lineages, and all three were found among the R1b Bell Beakers and in Bronze Age Central and Western Europe. But none were found among Steppe populations or among Indo-Iranians. So it looks like there was a migration of Indo-Europeans from Europe itself to Israel during the Bronze Age.
    Nevertheless it looks like it was not a direct migration from Europe as they are not purely European autosomally. They had previously mixed with a population carrying Y-haplogroup J1a2b as the above mtDNA samples have this Y-DNA. The R1b-M269 guy had mtDNA J2a2a2, which is also found in Italy and Turkey today. So my best guess, considering the period, is that those foreigners in Israel were Proto-Armenians who had originally come from the Balkans (R1a + R1b) and mixed with the J1a, J2a and E1b1b population of the South Caucasus, before launching an invasion of the Levant until Tell Megiddo.
    "U2e1b was also present in Early Bronze Age England." It reminds me of this article: https://www.haaretz.com/1.5206214

    Morbid Theory in Mystery of Israel's Answer to Stonehenge

    Archaeologist Rami Arav links structure of concentric stone circles in the Golan Heights, known as Rujm al-Hiri in Arabic and Galgal Refaim in Hebrew, to ancient method of disposing of the dead.
    ...
    He also noticed a similarity to round, high-walled structures used by Zoroastrians in Iran and India, known as dokhmas or towers of silence. These are buildings used for a process known as excarnation or sky burial — the removal of flesh from corpses by vultures and other birds. The winged scavengers perch on the high circular walls, swoop in when the pallbearers depart and can pick a skeleton clean in a matter of hours.
    There could be certainly some migrations or cultural influences from Europe to the Anatolia/Levant and then Iran/India in the ancient times, but I don't think that it related to Proto-Indo-Europeans.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    This is as precise as I could find:

    I10768 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1b1a1a2

    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1a1a1b2e1:F17329-

    For the brothers also :
    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA_family4 R1a1a1:F3551/V8042/PF6231 (Thanks to kingjohn )

    The three Megiddo outliers with 25%-35% Steppe are :
    I2189(R1a guy) and I2220 (brother and sister), I10100

    These outliers have good chunk of steppe but later samples from the region have barely any steppe.
    Excellent! Now we can work with something.

    R1a-F17329 (aka YP1505) is a subclade of Z93 that formed around 4000 years ago. It seems to be found chiefly in the Altay region. The FTDNA R1a project also has one YP1505 from Azerbaijan. Its parent clade, YP1506, is also found in Pakistani Punjab. So it looks definitely more Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian.

    So that R1a could have come with the Mitanni, who are AFAIK the only Indo-Aryan people who invaded the region in the 16th century BCE, establishing a state around what is now Kurdistan from c. 1500 BCE.

    I spoke too fast about the Proto-Armenians. They only arrived around Armenia c. 1200 BCE, so the Megiddo samples are a bit too old to be compatible.

    As for the mtDNA correspondance, I am not aware of the presence of T2b7 and U2e1b in Russia/Siberia, Central Asia, Iran, Pakistan or India that could corroborate the Indo-Aryan hypothesis. However both were found in R1a-associated Indo-European cultures, such as the Corded Ware and Bronze Age Poland and Bulgaria, so it's definitely possible that they were found among Indo-Aryans.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 03-06-20 at 20:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    "U2e1b was also present in Early Bronze Age England." It reminds me of this article: https://www.haaretz.com/1.5206214

    There could be certainly some migrations or cultural influences from Europe to the Anatolia/Levant and then Iran/India in the ancient times, but I don't think that it related to Proto-Indo-Europeans.
    Stonehenge was part of the Megalithic culture of Atlantic Europe, which was developed by Neolithic farmers (and some contemporary Mesolithic HG in the British Isles before they adopted farming themselves). U2a1b was not found in any of these populations. It arrived with the R1b Steppe people who put an end to the Megalithic culture. So no link.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Stonehenge was part of the Megalithic culture of Atlantic Europe, which was developed by Neolithic farmers (and some contemporary Mesolithic HG in the British Isles before they adopted farming themselves). U2a1b was not found in any of these populations. It arrived with the R1b Steppe people who put an end to the Megalithic culture. So no link.
    U2e1b: formed 9900 ybp, TMRCA 7500 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U2e1b/)

    About Stonehenge: Archaeologists believe it was constructed from 3000 BC to 2000 BC. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge)

    I think both of them don't relate to Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    U2e1b: formed 9900 ybp, TMRCA 7500 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U2e1b/)
    About Stonehenge: Archaeologists believe it was constructed from 3000 BC to 2000 BC. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge)
    I think both of them don't relate to Indo-Europeans.
    U2e1b originate in Northeast Europe during the Mesolithic. As mentioned above, it was found in Mesolithic Sweden, Estonia and Latvia, as well as in Neolithic Ukraine, where it was later absorbed by Proto-Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    U2e1b originate in Northeast Europe during the Mesolithic. As mentioned above, it was found in Mesolithic Sweden, Estonia and Latvia, as well as in Neolithic Ukraine, where it was later absorbed by Proto-Indo-Europeans.
    U2e1b has been also found in the Caucasus (2867-2581 BC), The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, so it also points to a migration from Zagros and/or Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Shahmiri i have to apologize :) I just jumped over these outliers because the paper doesn't mention any steppe in them but connected them to the Caucasus. So my assumption was that they were the same people from earlier periods with more Caucasus ancestry.

    I think the R1a guy will be interesting but maybe you know more Maciamo.
    This is as precise as I could find:

    I10768 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1b1a1a2

    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA 1600-1500 BCE R1a1a1b2e1:F17329-

    For the brothers also :
    I2189 Megiddo_MLBA_family4 R1a1a1:F3551/V8042/PF6231 (Thanks to kingjohn )

    The three Megiddo outliers with 25%-35% Steppe are :
    I2189(R1a guy) and I2220 (brother and sister), I10100

    These outliers have good chunk of steppe but later samples from the region have barely any steppe.



    Would you please show your source about R1a1a1b2e1?! I don't know what you want to prove.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Would you please show your source about R1a1a1b2e1?! I don't know what you want to prove.
    People on another forum tested him. I want to prove nothing, i don't know why this bothers you. Here you have a Indoiranian(IndoAryan) in the Levant, like you was looking for. This was your assumption not mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    U2e1b has been also found in the Caucasus (2867-2581 BC), The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, so it also points to a migration from Zagros and/or Caucasus.
    I suppose you meant a migration to the Caucasus/Zagros since the European samples are much older.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    People on another forum tested him. I want to prove nothing, i don't know why this bothers you. Here you have a Indoiranian(IndoAryan) in the Levant, like you was looking for. This was your assumption not mine.
    How did they test him?! Iran is the source, not the destination, R1a-M417 is a subclade of R1a-M17 which has the highest frequency in Iran, especially among Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I suppose you meant a migration to the Caucasus/Zagros since the European samples are much older.
    Yes, from Europe to the Caucasus/Zagros and from there to the Levant but the European one dates back to almost 10,000 years ago, so it didn't relate to Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Yes, from Europe to the Caucasus/Zagros and from there to the Levant but the European one dates back to almost 10,000 years ago, so it didn't relate to Indo-Europeans.
    The Indo-Europeans didn't emerge as an ethnic group until about 5500 years ago. But they didn't appear out of nowhere. They were a merger of populations and their ancestors included Mesolithic/Neolithic Northeast Europeans - among which we find U2e1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Indo-Europeans didn't emerge as an ethnic group until about 5500 years ago. But they didn't appear out of nowhere. They were a merger of populations and their ancestors included Mesolithic/Neolithic Northeast Europeans - among which we find U2e1b.
    Northeast European one seems to be Uralic culture, not Indo-European. Of course some scholars talk about a common Indo-Uralic origin but about Proto-Indo-European there was also a Semitic adstrate, as I see most of scolars already believe in a Proto-Indo-European homeland in the south of Caucasus.

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    Might be the Hyksos?


    look at this map, showing the distribution of chariot bits: i-dot-imgur-dot-com/i5dOvMH-dot-png

    fits perfectly.


    I can't post the image or link because of the restrictions on this site, which are apparently designed to discourage new people from joining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Might be the Hyksos?


    look at this map, showing the distribution of chariot bits: i-dot-imgur-dot-com/i5dOvMH-dot-png

    fits perfectly.


    I can't post the image or link because of the restrictions on this site, which are apparently designed to discourage new people from joining.
    Yes, I mentioned Hyksos in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post604722 & https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post604680

    Linguists believe the Sumerian word for "chariot" (gigir) has an Indo-European origin, from Proto-Indo-European *kʷikʷlos "wheel", this word has been mentioned in the Sumerian texts in Girsu (south of modern Iraq) from 2,500 BC. It is also believed that the name of Kiklipatalish, one of Tukri kings who conquered Elam in 2,300 BC has a Tocharian origin with the meaning of charioteer. Name of Kikkuli, author of a chariot horse training text in the Hittite language, has a similar origin too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    It is also believed that the name of Kiklipatalish, one of Tukri kings who conquered Elam in 2,300 BC has a Tocharian origin with the meaning of charioteer.
    Interesting. What's the evidence for that?

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    From the Agranat-Tamir paper:

    "The two outliers from Megiddo (three including the sibling pair) provide additional evidence for the timing and origin of gene flow into the region. ... The reason these individuals are distinct from the rest is that their Caucasus- or Zagros-related genetic component is much higher, reflecting ongoing gene flow into the region from the northeast. The Neolithic Levant component is 22%–27% in I2200, and 9%–26% in I10100. These individuals are unlikely to be first generation migrants, as strontium isotope analysis on the two outlier siblings (I2189 and I2200) suggests that they were raised locally. This implies that the Megiddo outliers might be descendants of people who arrived in recent generations. Direct support for this hypothesis comes from the fact that in sensitive qpAdm modeling (including closely related sets of outgroups), the only working northeast source population for these two individuals is the contemporaneous Armenia_MLBA..."

    (The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant, 2020)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^That isn't good enough for some people. They want to create elaborate, speculative stories.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Interesting. What's the evidence for that?
    Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab, have found R1a-M17 in Elam which dates back to at least 2,000 BC, also one sample in Tepe Sialk of Kashan (Central Iran) from 4,000 BC: https://www.virascience.com/thesis/515891/

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    What about the Tocharian thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That isn't good enough for some people. They want to create elaborate, speculative stories.
    There's more to it than that though..

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