Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

[ihype02]

Dalmatians being essentially like north Italians was my prediction and I was right. Same for Scythians.

My inaccurate predictions:
Iron age Hellenes were somewhat different from Myceneans genetically.
Native Sicilians were very similar to ancient Greeks.

Some other predicitions:
Dacians will cluster with mainland Greeks and Albanians.
Central Illyrians will be like somewhat like Tuscans but more southwestern.

 

[Dema]

This could be true for the South Illyrians. But in order to hypothesize that Illyrians in Dalmatia later mixed with Pelasgians, we would first have to prove that Pelasgians were inhabiting that area.

It is more likely that Pelasgian peoples were inhabiting the SouthBalkans. Most of them were Hellenized by proto-Hellenes and Dorians, while
others were influenced linguistically by the Illyrians. These resulted to the ancestors of the Albanians. The North Illyrians who were different biologically from Albanians/Greeks/Thracians were eventually Sclavinized. Also, the Romans massacred many of them.

Yeah i agree with everything you said just i used term Pelasgian as label to older pre-IE population. Not necessarily pelasgians from Greece and Albania who are real Pelasgians actually.
Pelasgian is just term Greeks used to describe natives and pre-Greek populations. I used same term for pre-Illyrian populations.

In Albanian wikipedia, even Phoenicians are described as one of Pelasgian population, https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenikasit

 

[ihype02]

IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
Target: EmpI8215
Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.

Kid, Thracians are only two hairs away from the Myceanean cluster in a figurative sense, you can model a modern Thessalian as a 60% Thessalian and 40% Gheg Albanian (Gheg Albanians are a little bit more northwestern shifted) but the model will still be Thessalian like. It would only make a difference if that 40% was Dalmatian like, which is not.

The Dorians were most likely nearly identical with Myceanaeans by the time they reached Peloponnese at least their contribution most likely did make a small difference which are similar as micro-regional differences (eg. east - west Sicilian), but the the cluster as whole is the same.

This model just shows that an over 40% population replacement might have happend and still no significant difference in the genetics, which can lead to other topics.

 

[Dema]

Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

Roman (7.945)
Gaul + Roman (8.253)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
Gallo-Roman (12.57)
Gaul (15.27)
Illyrian (16.14)
Roman Hispania (16.74)

I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me.

"Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.

 

[Hawk]

Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

Roman (7.945)
Gaul + Roman (8.253)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
Gallo-Roman (12.57)
Gaul (15.27)
Illyrian (16.14)
Roman Hispania (16.74)

I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me.

"Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.

The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians. Here are the results of a G25 calculator, which is used a lot.

Target: Progon_scaled Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
49.2	TUR_Barcin_N
38.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0	WH

Target: HRV_EBA Distance: 2.8970% / 0.02897046
50.6	TUR_Barcin_N
31.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
9.0	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.4	WHG
3.6	GEO_CHG
0.8	MAR_EN

Target: HRV_IA Distance: 3.8417% / 0.03841726
61.2	TUR_Barcin_N
34.8	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
4.0	WHG

Target: HRV_MBA Distance: 2.4450% / 0.02444964
60.4	TUR_Barcin_N
33.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.4	WHG

Greek colonizer from Anatolian coasts

Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2 Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494530
40.8	TUR_Barcin_N
39.2	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
13.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6	GEO_CHG
0.4	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: GRC_Mycenaean Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775159
64.2	TUR_Barcin_N
12.2	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
11.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.4	GEO_CHG
5.2	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.4	MAR_EN
0.4	RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Albanian Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156
36.8	TUR_Barcin_N
35.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.4	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.2	WHG
0.6	RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Greek_Thessaly Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019890
37.2	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
35.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0	TUR_Barcin_N
1.6	WHG

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 1.7650% / 0.01764966
36.8	TUR_Barcin_N
30.4	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.8	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.0	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.4	Levant_PPNB
0.4	WHG
0.2	RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Target: Greek_Izmir Distance: 1.5042% / 0.01504228
36.6	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.6	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
25.2	TUR_Barcin_N
4.8	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
3.6	Levant_PPNB
0.2	GEO_CHG

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia Distance: 2.3886% / 0.02388601
36.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
32.0	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
28.4	TUR_Barcin_N
2.4	WHG
1.0	Levant_PPNB

Target: Bulgarian Distance: 3.0771% / 0.03077084
39.8	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.2	TUR_Barcin_N
22.6	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.8	WHG
0.6	RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

 

[blevins13]

@Aspurg,

"SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

Fwiw, SZ43 is my closest match on mytrueancestry:

1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.604 - SZ43 - [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Top

99 %​

match vs all users

Their estimate of the ancestry is:
1. Tuscan (5.029)
2. North_Italian (8.337)
3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
4. Kosovar (9.972)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
7. Greek (11.71)
8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)


This is how he's defined by Eurogenes K13.

Distance to:	SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
2.62575703	Liguria
3.03894719	Emilia
4.22659437	Tuscany
4.70964967	Lombardy
5.97690555	Veneto
6.10092616	Tuscan
6.29661814	Piedmont
6.76625450	Romagna
7.13887946	Umbria
7.59609110	FrenchCorsica
8.13766551	Lazio
8.31645357	Marche
8.40452259	Friuli-VG
9.23770534	Swiss-Italian
9.48964699	Trentino
9.74243296	Swiss_Italian
11.88159922	Greek_Western-Thrace
12.35136835	Spanish_Extremadura
12.53068633	Portuguese
12.56161614	Albanian_Kosovo
12.60631191	Greek_Central-Macedonia
12.81659861	Albanian_north_Albania
12.89158253	Spanish_Andalucia
13.06767003	Vlach_Central-Macedonia
13.16254530	Kosovo_Albanian

I have ancestry from Liguria, Emilia and Toscana

Northern Italians and Tuscans are not all Illyrians or Pannonians.

Szolad is in an area which was an island of Romanized people long after other areas were overrun, whose people kept their culture, their Romance language etc. I have no idea if they were "locals" or displaced people from other parts of Europe or even Italy itself. At one point the Byzantines retook it, which would explain some of the more Southern Italian/Greek and Greek Islander like people.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

"The Romanic population from Pannonia created the Keszthely culture that evolved mainly during the 6th-7th centuries. Its artifacts were made in the workshops of Roman origin located mainly in the fortified settlements of Keszthely-Fenékpuszta and Sopianae (modern Pécs)."

"By the end of the 6th century, the Romanized populace was mainly buried in the row cemeteries that were newly laid out in the area of the late Roman fortresses of Keszthely (Castellum) and Pécs (Sopianae) (southwestern Hungary). During the period of Avar rule, Romanized and Byzantine people arrived from the Balkans, and they helped develop a community of skilled artisans. These communities, probably Christian, preserved or renewed their artistic relations with the Romanized population of the Mediterranean."

"The name Keszthely (IPA [ˈkɛst.hɛj]) could be related to the Istriot–Venetian castei, which means "castle", and is probably an original word of the Pannonian Romance language, according to the Austrian linguist Julius Pokorny.^[2"
S1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.604 - SZ43 - [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Top

99 %​

match vs all users

This SZ43 is one of my top matches ....how you come to conclusion that is Illyricani?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Dema]

The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians.

These calculators can confuse you with their labels of clusters. Mediterranean is much more then what these calculators show you. Geographically Mediterranean is everything in Mediterranean Sea and its shores.

This 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample had significant steppe percentage and typical steppe mtDNA, therefore most likely too fresh and missing some kind of Mediterranean component (not necessarily what your calculator shows as Mediterranean) to be considered as Illyrians as we know them. Also year 1600 BCE is too early to consider any Illyrian population as they probably developed a bit later.

The only reason why he is so far away is because he is from 1600 BCE and yet fresh IE arrival.

Albanians plot close with Greeks and Italians while this 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is so far away because he is not yet mixed into a way which later made Greeks, Italics, and Illyrians.
Albanians plot way more south then this sample does, and its obvious that Albanian genetics shifted from Steppe to Mediterranean-Balkan.

When we get Illyrians from 500 CE they will be much more consolidated in Mediterranean Sea and will be for sure more closer to Albanians.

There is no reason for Albanians to have Romans at 8 and Illyrians at 14, since both Romans and Illyrians were very similar.

I repeat Romans are at GD 8 because they are 500 AD samples and yet consolidated true Mediterranean Italic Romans, while 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is fresh arrival from steppe and therefore not yet consolidated into what we will later know as Illyrians and that is why he is at GD 14.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Can someone please explain the difference between Anatolia Barcin N and Tepecik Ciftlik N, and in terms of westward migration to the Balkans? Thanks.

 

[ihype02]

How much have the Slavic migration changed the genetic map of the Eastern Europe, even more than I predicted in some places.

 

[Aspurg]

When looking for matches of any sample, especially Ancient sample you need to be looking at the most likely candidates for representing his makeup. For Dalmatian proto-Illyrians you should most definitely not be looking at those who are distant geographically (except for new comers like IE's for ex). If possible you need samples which if possible immediately precede the aDNA sample chronologically and are situated in the same geographical area.

So let us see what are these Dalmatians. Logically their Neolithic element should related to EEF's which lived in Dalmatia and indeed this is where we get best matches. Lets try random Bulgarian EEF and Yamnaya, works well?
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 12.2366% / 12.23664441
78.6 I1297_Bulgaria_MP_N_7817_ybp
21.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

Nope.
Look at this now:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4330% / 3.43296136
59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
40.2 I3947_Croatia_Cardial_N_7836_ybp



Let's try for diversity second Dalmatian Cardial
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4715% / 3.47149623
61.2 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
38.8 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp

Works great.

More BB's

Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 5.4849% / 5.48492039
61.0 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.0 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 6.4420% / 6.44201259
63.8 E09569_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4223_ybp
36.2 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Another Dalmatian Cardial EEF
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 4.9936% / 4.99357642
60.6 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.4 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp

Let's replace BB with Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 15.4353% / 15.43531388
51.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
49.0 I0357_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_4952_ybp



maybe this was one off, lets try another Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 17.1371% / 17.13712291
52.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
48.0 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


It doesn't work with Yamnaya, why? Because of huge CHG in Yamnaya which Dalmatian MBA lacks.

So problem solved, you don't have to speculate about the ancestry of MBA Dalmatian that much at all. It was not some abstract "IE" it was approx 60 % German Bell Beaker + 40 % Dalmatian EEF, with whom they mixed in those centuries they have been there. The culture of the Dalmatian most likely is connected to intrusion of Ljubljana culture people. These were heavily admixed with BB's. With this J2b find in Hungary it might have arrived from the East but still apparently in formation of Ljubljana culture Vucedol and BB met, and some said BB's overwhelmed Vucedol people. Though it's possible some BB like affinities where there too in Maros culture.

German Bell Beakers themselves were already with some Central Euro EEF admixture so they were not purely Steppe. Let's see what this ideal BB is
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: 10.9657% / 10.96565604
81.6 I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
18.4 I0046_Germany_LBK_EN_7051_ybp

Trying German LBK EEF with German CW, not so ideal..


Try Remedello.. Much better
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: 5.4389% / 5.43890177
77.0 I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
23.0 RISE487_Remedello_di_Sotto_Italy_4557_years_M_I_CTS6231_H2c1_

Interestingly some Remedello elements were spotted in genesis of Ljubljana culture, and here we see these N.Italian Remedello samples seem like a good match for BB's.

So this BB element in Dalmatian was predominately IE/Steppe (CW derived), and CW were similar to Srubnaya where for example the mtdna of Dalmatian was found, my own I1a1. Though in my case surviving I1a1 do not seem of Balkan origin.

What was Iron Age Croat that is Iapodian
Target: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
Distance: 4.5108% / 4.51080673
89.8 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
10.2 I0112_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4250_ybp

Just MBA Dalmatian (proto-Delmatae) with little bit of BB-like. Likely Urnfield LBA influence which was attested in them. This EIA sample might be a good fit for Venetian-Liburnian group which is not considered Illyrian anymore. This group had a heavy Urnfield influence. As did Pannonian group. But it seems in Liburnian group Urnfield dominated and imposed their language, whereas in Pannonian group they strongly influenced Illyrian language but they didn't replace it.

And who is closest to this EIA sample? Venetians.
Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
5.43453770 Veneto
5.56891372 Piedmont
6.91223553 Friuli-VG
7.23040801 Liguria

As far as these Illyrians, that is the entire Delmato-Pannonian group is concerned I think no way were they at any point during their existence "more Southern" genetically. Southern Illyrians might have had significant southern admixture. But I believe these were as these samples show. You basically see in 800 years the only difference was this slight Central European Urnfield intrusion, very likely no mixing with additional "Southerners". Practically genetic continuity in 800 years. This already 700 BC and Iapodian is more NW than MBA Dalmatians. They were more likely to be like him in 400 BC..

So MBA was dominated by J-L283. Urnfield brought likely some R-L51 clades we found today in the area, with the likely addition of some E-V13 clades (might argue for some CTS9320 and L241 primarily).

 

[Aspurg]

@Aspurg,

"SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

Fwiw, SZ43 is my closest match on mytrueancestry:

1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.604 - SZ43 -
Top

99 %​

match vs all users

Their estimate of the ancestry is:
1. Tuscan (5.029)
2. North_Italian (8.337)
3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
4. Kosovar (9.972)
5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
7. Greek (11.71)
8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)


I have ancestry from Liguria, Emilia and Toscana

Northern Italians and Tuscans are not all Illyrians or Pannonians.

Szolad is in an area which was an island of Romanized people long after other areas were overrun, whose people kept their culture, their Romance language etc. I have no idea if they were "locals" or displaced people from other parts of Europe or even Italy itself. At one point the Byzantines retook it, which would explain some of the more Southern Italian/Greek and Greek Islander like people.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

Interesting that this is your first match. Yes I know of Kestzthely culture. Why do I think he might be to a degree locally derived?

​

Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: 3.5275% / 3.52748613
62.8 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
37.2 R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial


Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: 1.1648% / 1.16478587
74.4 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
23.2 R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
2.4 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp

With Late Antiquity Roman
Target: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
Distance: 1.1010% / 1.10104574
75.8 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
24.2 R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

His hg doesn't seem Pannonian/Illyrian. It seems he had definitely some Italian ancestry going by Lazio samples.

What Progon posted, involving Barcin, WHG is just for curiosity's sake, it has no relevance. Because you can see there Dalmatians have some WHG, this is due to Remedello admixture in BB component. His Tepecik swallows some portions of other admixtures. CWC element also was not "Yamnaya" but it's own specific mixture. It is plain that Dalmatian samples have nothing to do with Yamnaya genetically but are rather CW derived. Due to recent finds we know what these models show: that BB was ultimately CW derived..

​

 

[Aspurg]

Kid, Thracians are only two hairs away from the Myceanean cluster in a figurative sense, you can model a modern Thessalian as a 60% Thessalian and 40% Gheg Albanian (Gheg Albanians are a little bit more northwestern shifted) but the model will still be Thessalian like. It would only make a difference if that 40% was Dalmatian like, which is not.

The Dorians were most likely nearly identical with Myceanaeans by the time they reached Peloponnese at least their contribution most likely did make a small difference which are similar as micro-regional differences (eg. east - west Sicilian), but the the cluster as whole is the same.

This model just shows that an over 40% population replacement might have happend and still no significant difference in the genetics, which can lead to other topics.

Sure, superficially Thracians and Myceneans are kinda alike. But they still have some distance. And there is something unusual about Thracians, and also it seems Late Antiquity SZ19 is definitely a Thracian as he is close to IA Thracian and very distant from everyone else, which means this admixture definitely circulated in the area.

Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: 15.0178% / 15.01781376
76.8 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
23.2 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

There is something very off about Thracians, Myceneans are a great fit for Minoan + little Yamnaya which is logical, Thracians totally not. So I think these are derived of quite distinct elements.

Same with SZ19, SZ19 is very similar to I5769 even in components so must be even fully Thracian person.
Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: 17.2677% / 17.26771481
77.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
22.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

 

[Dema]

According to mytrueancestry which manages plenty of ancient and modern DNA therefore i am pretty confident in them and modern Albanians against ancient samples stand like this:

1. *Byzantine (5.168)
2. *Roman (5.168)
3. Byzantine + Roman (5.168)
4. Byzantine + Gallo-Roman (7.35)
5. Roman (7.987)
6. Gallo-Roman + Hellenic Roman (8.014)
7. Hellenic Roman + Roman (9.032)
8. Ancient Greek + Byzantine (9.103)
9. Hellenic Roman (13.77)
10. Gallo-Roman (15.26)
11. Ancient Greek (16.02)
12. Byzantine (16.35)


According to this we can see that modern Albanians are extremely close to Byzantine and Roman samples, and when we get actual Illyrian samples from anywhere 500 BCE to 500 CE they should be even closer.
Even tho i think Illyrians were very very close to Romans genetically and they were part of both Roman and Roman Byzantine empires.


here is my personal ploting map against ancient samples, ofc that Byzantines and Romans are closer then Illyrian sample also because of Roman impact on Illyrians. But i am pretty confident when Illyrians from time of Roman Empire and Byzant or a bit earlier will be tested and uploaded they will be probably my closest ancient samples. But also for all Albanians in general.

Anyways i am not denying that Albanians might be occasionally Slavic admixed, i myself have some amount of Slavic autosomal of about 18 %, and around 80 % should be what we call Illyrian "Southeast cluster".
Simply i dont believe Slavs have to do anything with Albanians plotting far from ancient 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample.

 

[Aspurg]

Interesting.. Thracians have nothing to do with Mycenaeans, superficial similarity based on EEF dominance but the components are different. It seems Bulgarian Chalcolithic no.1 + that R-Z93 Steppe Iranic-like sample (I2163) + little bit of Anatolian. This Z93 sample is a better fit than Yamnaya even.

Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: 5.1619% / 5.16186673
65.4 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
21.2 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp
13.4 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp


Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: 6.6909% / 6.69090148
54.8 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
23.6 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp
18.4 I0781_Bulgaria_C_6400_ybp
3.2 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp

 

[ihype02]

Sure, superficially Thracians and Myceneans are kinda alike. But they still have some distance. And there is something unusual about Thracians, and also it seems Late Antiquity SZ19 is definitely a Thracian as he is close to IA Thracian and very distant from everyone else, which means this admixture definitely circulated in the area.

Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: 15.0178% / 15.01781376
76.8 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
23.2 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

There is something very off about Thracians, Myceneans are a great fit for Minoan + little Yamnaya which is logical, Thracians totally not. So I think these are derived of quite distinct elements.

Same with SZ19, SZ19 is very similar to I5769 even in components so must be even fully Thracian person.
Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: 17.2677% / 17.26771481
77.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
22.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

You didn't get my point. I am pretty sure you used the Greek Empurie which lies above the two Myceanean sample for the model you used, and which is the closest to the Thracian and you used the the Myceanean below Greek Empuries (Thracian-Empuries-Myceanean-Myceanean), but as you can see there is an other Empuries which is less close to Thracians than three out of four Myceanean samples that we have, so using those types of models for population that are close to each is not always accurate as those difference are simply individual and quite common even in modern polulation. Some Classical Greeks will even shift closer to Minoans but the cluster is still the same. I just used Gheg vs Thessalian example in comparsion.

 

[Aspurg]

You didn't get my point. I am pretty sure you used the Greek Empurie which lies above the two Myceanean sample for the model you used, and which is the closest to the Thracian and you used the the Myceanean below Greek Empuries (Thracian-Empuries-Myceanean-Myceanean), but as you can see there is an other Empuries which is less close to Thracians than three out of four Myceanean samples that we have, so using those types of models for population that are close to each is not always accurate as those difference are simply individual and quite common even in modern polulation. Some Classical Greeks will even shift closer to Minoans but the cluster is still the same. I just used Gheg vs Thessalian example in comparsion.

Ah I see. I used the one that I've found: I8215. I found also some I8206 but he is Gaulish. So there is another Greek Empuries (with Greek ancestry).

 

[Angela]

This SZ43 is one of my top matches ....how you come to conclusion that is Illyricani?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Sorry, I guess I confused people.

That quote about SZ43 being "Illyrian" or Pannonian was from Aspurg.

I don't necessarily agree. There were clearly "Italian" like people in the area, whether more Northern, Central or Southern, and some Greek like people as well.

Is that because that was the make up of all of Pannonia at the time? I doubt it.

We know that during the period of these burials a culture existed in the vicinity was included people from the Balkans and other parts of the Roman world, artisans, who had relocated there, as the history indicates.

Also for what it's worth, this is my distance to the following sample:
40. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1600 BC) ..... 12.46 - I4331 - [FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Top

96 %​

match vs all users

 

[Hawk]

The way Aspurg assigns Y-DNA to Bronze Age Cultures is hillarious, like he is distributing marketing flyers lol.

 

[Dema]

Also for what it's worth, this is my distance to the following sample:
40. Illyrian / Dalmatian (1600 BC) ..... 12.46 - I4331 -
Top

96 %​

match vs all users

Yeah, thanks for sharing Angela! So you are TOP match vs this Dalmatian Illyrian from 1600 BCE and yet pretty far away. You match him at GD 12.5 while typical for Albanians is GD 14-16.
This means that you are his closest match in entire database. I think this alone proves that being close to this sample has nothing with Slavic genetics.

This is kinda expected, This "Illyrian" just simply dont fit in antique civilisation DNA that we find in Mediterranean Sea 1000 years later. Reason might be that its too early and he is not real Mediterranean Illyrian yet.


Since Angela is closest to this sample and yet so far away, this leads me to think that this sample population autosomal DNA does not exist anymore among modern humans, and closest whats left to them we find in Italiy (Angela GD 12), and in Albania (GD 14).
Also we know that same thing happened to his Ydna. His Ydna actually bottlenecked and dont exist anymore. However other J2b-L283 lines that we find in Balkan today are his brother clades that had more luck and managed to survive and expand, unlike sample we are talking about here which as already said his Ydna was lost in bottleneck, and most likely autosomal admix also.

He is just too ancient : )

 

[Angela]

Yeah, thanks for sharing Angela! So you are TOP match vs this Dalmatian Illyrian from 1600 BCE and yet pretty far away. You match him at GD 12.5 while typical for Albanians is GD 14-16.
This means that you are his closest match in entire database. I think this alone proves that being close to this sample has nothing with Slavic genetics.

This is kinda expected, This "Illyrian" just simply dont fit in antique civilisation DNA that we find in Mediterranean Sea 1000 years later. Reason might be that its too early and he is not real Mediterranean Illyrian yet.


Since Angela is closest to this sample and yet so far away, this leads me to think that this sample population autosomal DNA does not exist anymore among modern humans, and closest whats left to them we find in Italiy (Angela GD 12), and in Albania (GD 14).
Also we know that same thing happened to his Ydna. His Ydna actually bottlenecked and dont exist anymore. However other J2b-L283 lines that we find in Balkan today are his brother clades that had more luck and managed to survive and expand, unlike sample we are talking about here which as already said his Ydna was lost in bottleneck, and most likely autosomal admix also.

He is just too ancient : )

I'm closer to the Balkan samples on other calculators, i.e. not mytrueancestry, and Italians from further north are even closer if I remember correctly.

See, for instance, here, my results from Eurogenes K13. None of my supposed "Longobard" samples from Szolad or Collegno are Longobards. They are Italianate people or Gallo Roman types. There are also Greek Islander types there. CL36 is closest to modern Piemontese if I remember correctly. It's totally misleading labeling. R1 to whom I'm often at a distance of 6 is a Proto-Villanovan. Stufane from Romagna is at a four. More Northern Italians are even closer.

Just to reiterate, Eurogenes says SZ43 is at a distance of 2 to Ligurians, 3 to Emilians, and 4 to Tuscans. I'm sure you know how to do this, but for anyone who does not, you can see to whom these ancient samples are closest by just copying their coordinates from the Eurogenes K13 ancients and placing them as targets in the Eurogenes K13 updated modern.

Distance to:	Angela
2.93497871	SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
5.41744405	CL36_longobard_north_italy
5.73090743	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
6.05641808	R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
6.08392143	scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp
6.59609733	SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
6.59807548	SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
6.86632362	R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
6.93144285	R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
7.32957707	R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
7.39407871	I7424_morisco_
7.40771220	I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp
7.55432988	scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp
7.63038007	CL23_longobard_north_italy
7.83203039	R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
7.92385007	SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
8.08064973	I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
8.12940342	R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
8.34281128	R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
8.41153969	col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_
8.50960046	I7425_morisco_
8.62188494	I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp
8.71884167	STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
8.89206388	I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
8.97791178	SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
8.98867621	I12515_iberia_
9.04961878	R474b_Civitavecchia_Etruscan._Iron_Age
9.06077259	col001_col001_
9.11117995	R118_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
9.28771231	Crusader_SI41_Kingdom_of_Jerusalem_
9.33366488	RISE374_Hungary_Maros.SG_3693_ybp
9.37860864	CL121_longobard_north_italy
9.49464059	R105_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
9.64738306	ScythianMoldova_SCY300_Moldova_397-209_BC
10.11640747	R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
10.20063233	R120_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
10.26921126	I12647_iberia_
10.70229415	I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1_
10.74763695	DA198_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_
10.80305512	I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
10.96359430	France_IA_ERS88
11.29851760	NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
11.34239393	R109_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
11.34796017	scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce_
11.37517033	ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
11.57362951	I12516_iberia_
11.58556861	R110_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
11.62763519	I12514_iberia_
11.73873077	SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
11.80875099	RISE483_Hungary_Vatya.SG_3700_ybp

Another one:

5.96067110	I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
5.96285167	I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical
6.06036303	I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
6.16793320	R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.20598904	R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
6.36315173	SZ43
6.86379633	I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
6.88215809	R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
6.99657773	I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.16551464	I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
7.41494437	I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
7.68900514	CL36
8.12881295	ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy197
8.38781259	SZ28
8.75370207	Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.85352472	Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
8.99296392	SZ31
9.00708055	CL23
9.01179227	R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
9.05183407	ScythianSouthernMoldova_scy192
9.10498215	R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
9.23041169	I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
9.25520934	R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
9.31019871	ScythianMoldova_SCY300
9.40529638	R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio

14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age:

Distance to:	I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
3.49070194	Lombardy
3.80060521	Piedmont
3.80326176	Liguria
3.85440008	Veneto
4.80312398	Emilia
6.01376754	Swiss-Italian
6.45859892	Tuscany
6.65665081	Friuli-VG
6.75908278	Trentino
6.95495507	Swiss_Italian
9.12534383	Tuscan
9.59938540	Romagna
9.74907688	Portuguese
9.89685304	Spanish_Extremadura
10.01509860	FrenchCorsica
10.23145151	AostaValley
10.38467140	Umbria
10.66925021	Spanish_Murcia
10.72680288	Spanish_Andalucia
10.87431377	Spanish_Valencia
11.29207687	Spanish_Cataluna
11.34176353	Lazio
11.50318217	Marche
11.59701686	Spanish_Galicia
11.98845278	Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon

You'll see the same thing for the Scythians. There were farmer admixed Scythians, and then the "other" kind. I knew something was up with them when the first paper on the Scythians came out. On one of their graphs the mtDna for a lot of them was closest to Tuscans.