Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???

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What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???

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Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations.
Not the other way around.
They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture.

Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.

Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.
 
@Dema,

That spot next to the southern-most Italians, and Greeks is not the only spot where Ashkenazi plot. There are Ashkenazi Jews that plot exactly on top of where Albanians land, which is east of Tuscans:

naOZdlu.jpg


There has been a lot of admixture events between the Levant, and Europe, especially south-eastern Europe into the levant. From the Classical period and Iron age, and into the middle ages, Jews have been mixing with Europeans, to become genetically who they are today.
 
What is pushing South Italians and Central Greeks into Ashkenazi cluster? I think actual Phoenician genetics are hidden here and might me main reason why are Greeks and South Italians, Abruzzo Italians etc pushed toward these East Mediterranean clusters. Only North Italians are somewhat close to 14331 Croatia MBA sample. So by being North they probably didn't mix as much with Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations unlike Greeks, South Italians, etc.. Therefore Illyrians being more under Greek influence historically they have been also pulled towards East Mediterranean cluster. Therefore that is main reason why Albanians are further from sample 14331 Croatia MBA. Slavic influence plays minor role here and Albanians have minor Slavic admix. This sample 14331 had exactly 2500 years time to additionally change his genetics until Slavs arrived in year 700 CE, therefore it can be anything in-between this sample and modern Albanians which changed their autosomal and not nesseserly Slavic influence. My best guess is Phoenicians, Minoans, and other Pelasgian populations???

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Furthermore, Pelasgian is not an academic term in regards to population genetics. Southern Italians, and Greeks are similar to Bronze-Age and Iron Age populations that have existed in that area, which is why they have an affinity to Myceaneans. There was an early Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that brought in admixture into the north eastern Mediterranean basin. I think it is likely that the ancestors of Albanians were similar to these populations, which were augmented by Slavic admixture.
 
Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations.
Not the other way around.
They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture.

Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.

Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.
Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.

I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.

Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was of Cartagian origin and was extremely proud of his Phoenician origin. He was fluent in Punic/Semitic and spoke Latin and Greek with accent. Phoenicians but also Minoan, Pelasgian element plays major role here.


Btw yes i don't have time to read new studies, im easy going :) Im reading book of Procopius of Caesarea atm, Secret History about Byzantine times of Justinian I and his crazy wife Theodora :)

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Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.

I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.

Roman Emperor Septimius Severus was of Cartagian origin and was extremely proud of his Phoenician origin. He was fluent in Punic/Semitic and spoke Latin and Greek with accent. Phoenicians but also Minoan, Pelasgian element plays major role here.


Btw yes i don't have time to read new studies, im easy going :) Im reading book of Procopius of Caesarea atm, Secret History about Byzantine times of Justinian I and his crazy wife Theodora :)

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I'm sorry to say it, but your ignorance is apparent. I'm not trying to insult you, but allow me to elaborate.

"Eastern Mediterranean" is a nonsense term, in regards to genetics. The genetics of south eastern Europe and various parts of the middle east are very divergent.

I have never heard of Phoenician admixture into Greeks or Romans of any significant degree by any genetic paper. That sounds more like something you would hear a t-roll propose. In fact, as I stated, Greeks are similar to modern mainland Greek populations, mostly from the south, as well as Southern Italians. Moreover, in the genetics paper on Ancient Rome, two of the four "Latin" samples are already Southern Italian-like, and the other two being Northern Italian-like.

Copper Age and Bronze age Anatolians have about 50% Iran-like admixture, with the other half being Neolithic Anatolian. These people migrated into the Balkans, and the rest of Southern Europe, but also into the Levant, where they replaced about 50% of the admixture there.
 
Looks like you have a problem accepting that Italians are autosomally all over the place and that North Italians are quite far away from Greeks, South Italians and Albanians. This would be like saying South Italians are far away from Croatian l14331 sample and from North Italians because of Slavic admix lol. They are pushed to East Mediterranean / Middle Eastern cluster because they were mixing with Mediterranean populations like Phoenicians (Semitic) and Pelasgian (pre-IE, pre-Greek, and pre-Illyrian populations). Regarding Cypriot Phoenicoans can for sure be considered as Pelasgian as they were pre-Greek natives.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that Greeks, South Italians, and therefore also Albanians are pushed also toward this Pelasgian and Mediterranean autosomal element.

You might have never hear for any Phoenician admix into Romans but you should take history books into hands and look for times when entire South Italy, Sardinia ,entire Spain, Cypriot and partially most of Mediterranean Sea was for centuries in control of Phoenicoans, long before Romans or Italics were any major Mediterranean force. I assure you that Romans were heavy mixed with Phoenicians but also with Middle Easterners, hence the reason why haplogroups J1 and J2-M205, but also some clades of J2a appear exclusively in time of Roman Empire and haplogroup J in general reaches over 50 % exclusively in Roman Empire in Italy.





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Looks like you have a problem accepting that Italians are autosomally all over the place and that North Italians are quite far away from Greeks, South Italians and Albanians. This would be like saying South Italians are far away from Croatian l1443 sample and from North Italians because of Slavic admix lol. They are pushed to East Mediterranean / Middle Eastern cluster because they were mixing with Mediterranean populations like Phoenicians (Semitic) and Pelasgian (pre-IE, pre-Greek, and pre-Illyrian populations). Regarding Cypriot Phoenicoans can for sure be considered as Pelasgian as they were pre-Greek natives.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that Greeks, South Italians, and therefore also Albanians are pushed also toward this Pelasgian and Mediterranean autosomal element.

You might have never hear for any Phoenician admix into Romans but you should take history books into hands and look for times when entire South Italy, Sardinia ,entire Spain, Cypriot and partially most of Mediterranean Sea was in control of Phoenicoans. I assure you that Romans were heavy mixed with Phoenicians but also with Middle Easterners, hence the reason why haplogroups J1 and J2-M205, but also some clades of J2a appear exclusively in time of Roman Empire and haplogroup J in general reaches over 50 % exclusively in Roman Empire in Italy.





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You want to disagree, at least produce some actual evidence. Don't give me superficial, and benighted explanations of PCAs, and haplogroups. Haplogroup J has been in Italy since the Neolithic, genius.

I have no problem, with anything that the genetic studies show. I post many PCAs demonstrating genetic distances between populations, from various calculators all the time. Attacking my integrity is uncalled for. You already admitted you don't read academic papers, which is obvious. Don't be so reticent on your feelings about certain groups, because that is obvious as well.

I am not going to allow you to promote stupidity here. Keep it up, and you're gone.
 
Take a look at the graph:

X5FQhf9.jpg

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/9/eaaw3492.full

ABA has been in Southern Europe, including Albania since the early Bronze age at least. That is the reason why those populations are pulled towards their position on the PCA.

Genetics of the ABA:

we are not able to reject a two-population qpAdm model in which these groups derive ~60% of their ancestry from Anatolian farmers and ~40% from CHG-related ancestry This signal is not driven by Neolithic Iranian ancestry,


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6396/eaar7711

Likely the same migration that helped give rise to the Myceaneans:

The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe or Armenia. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017Natur.548..214L/abstract

Populations in the levant are differentiated from ABA, because the Levantines retained about half of the admixture from the previous population, in addition to other migrations:



Here, we report genome-wide data analyses from 110 ancient Near Eastern individuals spanning the Late Neolithic to Late Bronze Age, a period characterized by intense interregional interactions for the Near East. We find that 6
th
millennium BCE populations of North/Central Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus shared mixed ancestry on a genetic cline that formed during the Neolithic between Western Anatolia and regions in today’s Southern Caucasus/Zagros. During the Late Chalcolithic and/or the Early Bronze Age, more than half of the Northern Levantine gene pool was replaced, while in the rest of Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, we document genetic continuity with only transient gene flow. Additionally, we reveal a genetically distinct individual within the Late Bronze Age Northern Levant. Overall, our study uncovers multiple scales of population dynamics through time, from extensive admixture during the Neolithic period to long-distance mobility within the globalized societies of the Late Bronze Age.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867420305092
 
Some of this supposed "history" is completely inaccurate.

The Phoenicians had some settlements on the northwest part of Sicily, and in southwestern Sardinia. There were no Phoenician settlements on mainland Italy. There certainly were none in Greece. That's nonsense

If by Pelasgians, people mean the population living in Greece before the arrival of the steppe admixed Greek speakers or Thracians, or whatever, they were old fashioned EEF farmers, and later Middle Neolithic people, and so a blend of about 20% WHG and 80% Anatolian farmer. It's the same population which forms the majority of the Minoans, the Mycenaeans and everybody else living in the Balkans as well, including the Albanians. The Minoans and the Mycenaeans received input as well from Bronze Age Anatolians, who had, in addition to Anatolian farmer, ancestry from the Zagros/Iran. The Mycenaeans also had some steppe.

Albanians actually fit within Greek variation, occupying a space near Thessaly.

You're not different "breeds".

You really should read the academic papers, and don't rely on what you read on "anthro" sites.
 
Ashkenazi are a newer cluster, that are pulled towards Greeks, because of various admixture events with European populations.
Not the other way around.
They have a lot of Southern European and Polish admixture.
Perhaps you should benefit from reading more of the newer studies that have come out.
Also, the PCA by MTA is very flawed, and not very consistent with the academic ones.
I always assumed before that most of the Ashkanazi Jews are mixed with Poles and Western Europeans than the southern Europeans given the fact that many of them look very light in pigment. You would need a greater distance to pull them closer to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders.
Yeah West Sicilians are closer to Abruzzes than they are to East Sicilians, the PCA is weird.
 
Ashkenazi i mentioned only because they were marked on modern populations map. I was speaking for East Mediterranean genetics as i also said in previous post. That still does not explain what pulls south Italians and Greeks to East Mediterranean clusters. Why Lebanese match Cypriot Greeks at relative close distance? So Albanians are obviously closer to this Ashkenazi, Greek, South Italian cluster which pulls them away from Dalmatia Bronze Age sample and North Italians.

I think Ashkenazi are in that spot because being of originally Semitic origin but heavy admixed with Europeans gives kinda similar admix just as when Phoenicians mixed with Romans and Greeks.

we could say that greeks or albanians were pulled towards pheonicians or eastern mediterranean because the anatolian farmers were already very simily to levantine populations. on the pca's you can see that farmers in europe are basically on a cline between WHG and neolithic levant. from that perspective the farmers from anatolia pulled "europeans"/WHG towards levant. so europeans were already pulled towards the eastern mediterranean 8000 years ago.
 
I already posted proportions of some famous model used around in anthroforas. It's pretty clear that Albanians/Greeks differ from Paleo-Balkan samples into two directions in comparison with Italians.

The first one is:

More Anatolian-like affinities. They got this admixture during LBA/EIA or during Byzantine time, Byzantine time might be a good bet.

Second one is:

More Slavic admixture.

With Albanians having more Slavic admixture than Greeks, and Greeks having more Anatolian-like admixture than Albanians.

Otherwise, both of the populations look compact and close to the Paleo-Balkan populations, just that not closer than Italians based on admixture proportions who are much more similar, especially to Dalmatians/Iapygians, Central/North Italians will be even closer to Roman-age Illyrians.
 
I always assumed before that most of the Ashkanazi Jews are mixed with Poles and Western Europeans than the southern Europeans given the fact that many of them look very light in pigment. You would need a greater distance to pull them closer to Southern Italians and Greek Islanders.
Yeah West Sicilians are closer to Abruzzes than they are to East Sicilians, the PCA is weird.

I would not be surprised if there was not an exodus of Jewish merchants from Rome as Rome declined. Same thing that probably happened as Constantinople was sacked during the Crusades.
 
we could say that greeks or albanians were pulled towards pheonicians or eastern mediterranean because the anatolian farmers were already very simily to levantine populations. on the pca's you can see that farmers in europe are basically on a cline between WHG and neolithic levant. from that perspective the farmers from anatolia pulled "europeans"/WHG towards levant. so europeans were already pulled towards the eastern mediterranean 8000 years ago.

Exactly right.
 
Thanks. Amazing to see that the old Neolithic farmer populations survived so well in the south Balkans. It seems to reinforce what population genetics pioneers LL Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues said, at least as it pertains to the south Balkans, that the earlier migrations were the most significant and later migrations, like the medieval Slavs, had relatively less impact due to greater population density.

Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.
 
Considering that one of the La Tene samples was E1b1b and he was most likely E-V13, i think Urnfield Culture could possibly well had E-V13 in their ranks. Only aDNA will tell the true and final story of all these events.
 
Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.[/QUOTEave

I would have thought it was the opposite. There's an awful lot of Neolithic farmer and Caucasus in the Balkans.

It's all difficult to untangle, I'll give you that. You have the European Middle Neolithic farmers, who were something like 80% Anatolian, or "Near Eastern" farmer, if you will, and 20% WHG. Then you have people like the Thracians and Illyrians who brought in steppe ancestry, but it was already mixed with MN farmer, and became progressively more diluted. Then you had some incursions by Gauls, but how long did they stay, and how much impact did they have? Plus, they also had, what, 40-50% MN by that time?

Only much later later do you have the Slavs coming in, who, despite having much more steppe, also have their share of MN ancestry.

So, how do you apportion the percentage of more "northern" ancestry which the Slavic migrations introduced?

I'd be interested to see averages of the major clusters in, say, Serbs, or Romanians, as well as Bulgarians, and compare them to actual "Slavs". Does Eurogenes provide public data about that in, say, K13 or K15 or even G25? Not that I would necessarily trust his data. He has a vested interest in inflating the "Slavic" percentage wherever possible.

I suppose the real way to know would be to compare ancient samples from the Balkans during the period of the Roman Republic and Early Empire (Dacians,Thracians, Illyrians) vs modern people.

I was going to look it up in the old Dodecad spreadsheets, but the idiots have infected it with viruses of some kind.
 
I used ULTIMATE ANCIENT COMPONENTS by Celtíbero Itálico.

Target: Progon_scaled
Distance: 1.9252% / 0.01925168
59.8Early_European_Farmer
40.2Steppe_Pastoralist


Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 0.8792% / 0.00879156
57.8Early_European_Farmer
33.8Steppe_Pastoralist
3.4Western_Hunter-Gatherer
3.2Iran_Neolithic
1.8Early_Levantine_Farmer


Target: Italian_Liguria
Distance: 1.7346% / 0.01734632
55.8Early_European_Farmer
35.2Steppe_Pastoralist
6.2Western_Hunter-Gatherer
1.8Iberomaurusian
0.6Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.2Africa_Mesolithic
0.2Ancient_Dravidian


Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 1.0490% / 0.01049045
58.0Early_European_Farmer
29.2Steppe_Pastoralist
6.2Iran_Neolithic
4.8Early_Levantine_Farmer
1.8Western_Hunter-Gatherer


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.0964% / 0.01096360
58.2Early_European_Farmer
34.2Steppe_Pastoralist
5.2Iran_Neolithic
1.4Western_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4Early_Levantine_Farmer


Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.2071% / 0.01207146
62.2Early_European_Farmer
28.8Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8Iran_Neolithic
2.2Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.4Early_Levantine_Farmer
0.4Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.2Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic


Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 2.5224% / 0.02522434
50.4Early_European_Farmer
37.6Steppe_Pastoralist
10.6Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.4Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer


Target: Serbian
Distance: 2.7144% / 0.02714450
50.8Early_European_Farmer
36.4Steppe_Pastoralist
9.8Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
3.0Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer


Target: Polish
Distance: 4.3662% / 0.04366247
37.2Steppe_Pastoralist
35.2Early_European_Farmer
25.0Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
2.6Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer


Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 4.6315% / 0.04631483
36.4Steppe_Pastoralist
35.6Early_European_Farmer
21.8Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
6.2Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer


Target: Macedonian
Distance: 2.7525% / 0.02752508
53.4Early_European_Farmer
36.8Steppe_Pastoralist
7.2Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
1.8Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
0.8Iran_Neolithic


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.3001% / 0.02300116
52.6Early_European_Farmer
32.6Steppe_Pastoralist
7.4Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
3.6Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
3.0Iran_Neolithic
0.4Ancient_Dravidian
0.4Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic


Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5854% / 0.01585405
59.4Early_European_Farmer
30.2Steppe_Pastoralist
4.8Iran_Neolithic
4.6Scandinavian_Hunter-Gatherer
0.4Ancient_Dravidian
0.4Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.2Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
 

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