Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

@Dema,
R 850 is a Phoenician? Where on earth do you get that? Are you aware that the modern Lebanese are very close descendants of the Canaanites/Phoenicians? Do you see them anywhere on this list of closest modern populations from Eurogenes K13, who never gets Near Easterners right, or Italians, for that matter? It's either deliberate or incompetence. You're aware, yes, that the Dodecanese is off the coast of Anatolia?

Distance to:R850_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Iron_Age
4.12800497Greek_Dodecanese
5.35067285Greek_Chios
6.26520550Calabria
6.35148014Greek_Symi_Island
7.40556547Malta
8.29838539Turk_Cypriot
8.47106841Sicily
8.53762262East_Sicilian
8.62302151Sephardic_Jewish
9.30844778Campania
9.46088262Algerian_Jewish
9.58992179Central_Greek
10.57814729Italian_Jewish
10.61534738Apulia
10.67247862Ashkenazi
11.03320896Tunisian_Jewish
11.27887849Cyprian
11.27887849Greek_Cypriot
11.56409962Basilicata
11.56547448Molise
11.62612145Libyan_Jewish
11.84490608Greek_Andros_Island
12.31438996Abruzzo
12.83437572Moroccan_Jew
13.40095146Greek_Cappadocian

Let’s look at Dodecad

Distance to:R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
3.90799181Greek_Crete
7.13377179Ashkenazy_Jews
7.63860109Italy_Calabria
7.74058137Sephardic_Jews
7.82175172Ashkenazi
10.04684154Italy_Sicily
10.57089239Italy_Campania
10.88449356Greek_Cappadocia
11.39101962Italy_Apulia
11.86263040Cypriots
12.08694751Nusayri_Turkey
12.19292418Morocco_Jews
12.92056940Italy_Abruzzo
13.12759689Crimean_Tatar_Coast
13.17106678Turk_West_BlackSea
13.49063008Turk_Central_West
14.16544387Greek
14.43175665Turk_Central_East
14.45064012Turk_Anatolia
15.19421600Turk_Southwest
15.21064759Lebanese
15.74333510Turk_Northwest
15.93597503Turk_South
15.96534685Turk_Central_Black_Sea
16.59878610Turk_Southeast
That makes the most sense and was, I believe, also the conclusion of the paper.

You're aware, yes, that there were no Ashkenazi Jews at that time, and they're a more recent population which is anywhere from 40-60% European?

Did you also somehow miss this from Antonio et al? Who could look at that and say...PHOENICIAN????

XXEh5Xo.png



Obviously ludicrous claims like that make everything you say not only subject to ridicule, but undeserving of reasoned responses.

I will also point out once again some fundamental facts about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. You have presented absolutely no historical or archaeological proof that the Greeks admixed with either group. When you make such claims absent proof, it’s not debate, it’s misinformation and t-rolling, and that isn’t permitted here.

In terms of Italians, the only Phoenician/Carthaginian settlements were, to repeat, on the northwestern part of Sicily and the southwestern part of Sardinia.

There was no war with Phoenicia. There were the Punic Wars with the Carthaginians, who were different people, with only the elites probably of Levantine origin. The rest of them would have been partly or mostly Berber. Now, you seem to have your dates confused as well. The Punic Wars have nothing to do with the middle to late Empire and any supposed genetic changes to the actual natives. The Carthaginians, much less the Phoenicians, didn’t exist by that time. The Punic Wars, for your information, occurred from 264 to 146 BC.

So, you seem to be implying an admixture with Phoenicians, who were actually Carthaginians, during the period of the Empire, when it was actually the Republic. During the course of those wars, indeed some of the “Carthaginian” soldiers were probably enslaved, and perhaps brought back to Italy, although they could have been bought all over the Empire. The bigger problem is that the VAST majority of the Carthaginian troops were not Carthaginians, much less Phoenicians; there were never enough of them, because they were mainly just elite traders. Probably most of the troops were, from the historical record, Spaniards and Alpine people and north Italians, including my Ligures. See the problem with your reasoning? This is what comes of not knowing any history.

Now, as to J2-M205, how the heck do you know where it formed?

I can’t figure out what, apart from the typical Albanian desire to t-roll Greeks could lead you to this conclusion, unless it’s that you still haven’t grasped or understood the fundamental principle in population genetics that y dna DOES NOT DETERMINE ETHNICITY.

You do the same thing with J2b- I don’t know where it was first picked up and spread from, and I don’t care, but Albanians don’t own it and nor did the Illyrians. The fact that it shows up amongst Etruscans and modern Italians doesn’t mean “Illyrians” brought it there or that Etruscans were Illyrians. Certainly, Albanians don’t have anything to do with it. I realize that you were all taught you were the descendants of the Illyrians, but you’re certainly not very close to the samples we currently have, and are much further from them than are Italians, so let it go; it just makes you all look ridiculous.

Leaving all that aside, how could you possibly conclude that all the J2-M205 in Italy or Greece or anywhere else in Europe only comes from the Levant? Haven’t you done the least bit of unbiased research? Don't you realize how much came from Anatolia to Greece, and perhaps particularly, to Crete?

Don’t you see that your conclusions are not grounded in unbiased fact?

As for those ridiculous models, who made them? Was it Sikeliot acting as Portuguese Princess, or that card carrying Skin Head, Stormfront member Drac who used to regularly threaten me on this site?

You really have to start hanging around with a better class of people.

Everyone else can do as they wish, but I will no longer debate these issues with someone seemingly blithely drawing conclusions based on absolutely no actual facts.


Indeed, the authors of Antonio et al. 2019, were clear when they modeled the Iron Age sample R850, with Anatolian_ChL. It clusters with ABA, from Raveane et al. 2019. We can see from the PCA it certainly consistent with de Barros Damgaard et al. 2018's modeling of Bronze Age and Copper Age Anatolians.

JGuyyTE.png


This is what pulls Mediterranean populations into be where they are, not this nonsense eurogenes invention of "Eastern Mediterranean", which is code for modern middle eastern populations. ABA is a formative component of mediterreanean people in the Bronze age; a merger of Western Anatolian, and Caucasian. Just like Steppe is a merger of EHG, and Caucasian. ABA, and Steppe moved into Europe and mixed with EEF and each other, to give rise to Iron Age and Classical people of Europe.

Middle easterners have ABA too, but are also formed from prior populations from before ABA arrived.

It is not a hard concept to grasp, unless these people are seriously low-IQ. Otherwise they are t-rolling for some perverse reason, that makes them feel better living with their fundemental inadequacies.
 
I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over.

I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.

Well, i mentioned before statistically it looks like Illyrians from Albania will be as distant as HRV_IA or even more distant. I suspect they will be like Tsakonians/Maniots-like or Central Italians.

Slavic Y-DNA couldn't survive among Northern Albanians due to their tribalism, instead it survived better in South Albania. I think percentage-wise in South Albania paternally it reaches ~25%.

btw, i have heard we will have results from an archeological site of Albania, Maliq Korca, it looks like an early bronze age site, not sure.
 
Last edited:
I don't know if they were or not, or just their ancestors, but regardless of the yDna one of these Dalmatians carried, and regardless of the fact that these Balkan samples are pretty close to Albania and nearby areas, they're a hell of a lot closer to Italians, especially central-northern Italians, than they are to Albanians, not that I give a damn. Of all the things to obsess over.

I think they're pinning their hope on Roman Era people from that area being the real "Illyrians" and Albanians being the closest people to them. I hope for their sakes it turns out that way, or they'll all have a collective nervous breakdown.

Currently I match closer with “Roman” samples from the Balkans in MTA but I don’t believe this is true considering Y-Dna......in addition urnfield culture top match came up. So it seems exiting..... I will wait for more samples to see truth revealed. Am I going to breakdown... and calling for Mama, “Italian style”, on unexpected outcome, certainly not.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
What Kool-Aid have you people been drinking?

By all means compare the totals for Caucasus, Southwest Asian and Atlantic Med of the "South Slavs" like the Romanians (and all the rest) and, say, real Slavs like the Russians. You people have got to be kidding. At MOST it's about 25%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...CEMESjkJpG78ARtrxwwtbt52c/edit#gid=1797482804

I don't know if you are reffering to me. But I think you misunderstood me.
You said that the northern shift of South Slavs cannot be attributed entirely to Slavs which is true, and then I said that Thracian shift of the Bulgarians cannot be attributed entirely to Thracians, because some of it might Anatolian, but I never said that South Slavs are essentially Anatolian or anything like that.

Just some random models:
"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian_-_Bulgaria1",
"fit": 2.48,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45,
"BGR_IA": 30,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,

"sample": "Test2:Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6",
"fit": 2.265,
"BGR_IA": 47.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 40.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 11.67,

"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian",
"fit": 1.6074,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 38.33,
"BGR_IA": 31.67,
"Anatolia_IA": 10,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 10,
"HUN_BA": 8.33,
"Hun_Tian_Shan": 1.67,


 
Currently I match closer with “Roman” samples from the Balkans in MTA but I don’t believe this is true considering Y-Dna......in addition urnfield culture top match came up. So it seems exiting..... I will wait for more samples to see truth revealed. Am I going to breakdown... and calling for Mama, “Italian style”, on unexpected outcome, certainly not.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

One more ethnic slur, buddy, and you're banned for life. Am I clear?

You really want to start this???

If it weren't for the fact that there are some decent Albanian posters here whom I wouldn't want to offend I could go off on you even more. You really want to compare Italy and Albania?

CUT IT OUT, and don't ruin it for them too.

I can't remember how many times I have stopped other Balkanites from t-rolling Albanians and this is the crap I get in return. What's wrong with you?
 
Well, i mentioned before statistically it looks like Illyrians from Albania will be as distant as HRV_IA or even more distant. I suspect they will be like Tsakonians/Maniots-like or Central Italians.

Slavic Y-DNA couldn't survive among Northern Albanians due to their tribalism, instead it survived better in South Albania. I think percentage-wise in South Albania paternally it reaches ~25%.

btw, i have heard we will have results from an archeological site of Albania, Maliq Korca, it looks like an early bronze age site, not sure.

I don't know what the actual "Illyrians" of the Roman Republic Era will be like, but that's not an unreasonable speculation. The only thing that will tell us is ancient dna so I'm also looking forward to the coming results.
 
Every group of Slavs in the Balkans can be modeled genetically as Slavic>Native expect for Bulgarians.
Even Bulgarians, when you take in the MENA component in the model, have a higher Slavic percentage than the Thracian one.[/QUOTEave

I would have thought it was the opposite. There's an awful lot of Neolithic farmer and Caucasus in the Balkans.

It's all difficult to untangle, I'll give you that. You have the European Middle Neolithic farmers, who were something like 80% Anatolian, or "Near Eastern" farmer, if you will, and 20% WHG. Then you have people like the Thracians and Illyrians who brought in steppe ancestry, but it was already mixed with MN farmer, and became progressively more diluted. Then you had some incursions by Gauls, but how long did they stay, and how much impact did they have? Plus, they also had, what, 40-50% MN by that time?

Only much later later do you have the Slavs coming in, who, despite having much more steppe, also have their share of MN ancestry.

So, how do you apportion the percentage of more "northern" ancestry which the Slavic migrations introduced?

I'd be interested to see averages of the major clusters in, say, Serbs, or Romanians, as well as Bulgarians, and compare them to actual "Slavs". Does Eurogenes provide public data about that in, say, K13 or K15 or even G25? Not that I would necessarily trust his data. He has a vested interest in inflating the "Slavic" percentage wherever possible.

I suppose the real way to know would be to compare ancient samples from the Balkans during the period of the Roman Republic and Early Empire (Dacians,Thracians, Illyrians) vs modern people.

I was going to look it up in the old Dodecad spreadsheets, but the idiots have infected it with viruses of some kind.

angela i am 1/4 bulgarian
and i score 11% east europe in ftdna my origins 2.0
so i guess a full bulgarian might score close to 40% east europe in my origins 2.0
the slavic elements is there in modern bulgarians
afcorse they are different from russians and other north slavs
but they still have slavic dna and not so low .....:unsure:
let us remember the thracian iron age sample I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria (500-400 BC she doesn't score east central euro and central euro in eurogenes k36
which modern bulgarian do score ......
so the slavic signature is there in modern bulgarian
 
I don't know if you are reffering to me. But I think you misunderstood me.
You said that the northern shift of South Slavs cannot be attributed entirely to Slavs which is true, and then I said that Thracian shift of the Bulgarians cannot be attributed entirely to Thracians, because some of it might Anatolian, but I never said that South Slavs are essentially Anatolian or anything like that.

Just some random models:
"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian_-_Bulgaria1",
"fit": 2.48,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45,
"BGR_IA": 30,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,

"sample": "Test2:Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6",
"fit": 2.265,
"BGR_IA": 47.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 40.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 11.67,

"sample": "Test1:Bulgarian",
"fit": 1.6074,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 38.33,
"BGR_IA": 31.67,
"Anatolia_IA": 10,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 10,
"HUN_BA": 8.33,
"Hun_Tian_Shan": 1.67,



No, Ihype, I wasn't referring to you, but I do completely disagree with you, and with that modeling. I don't know where you got it, but it makes no sense to me as to the overall genetics of Balkan people.

My point was that while many Balkanites may speak a Slavic language, they are not by any stretch of the imagination "Slavs", imo.

My reasoning is in part based on the excel sheet to which I linked in post Number 110.

As I suggested in that post, just add up the numbers for Atlantic Med (which is basically a stand in for EEF and WHG), Caucasus, and South West Asian for each population. Conveniently, Romanians come right before Russians in the sheet, but do it for all of them if you wish, including Albanians. Then compare the numbers versus the numbers for "real" Slavs, like Russians and Poles.

I have no idea how people could have gotten the idea that the Balkans doesn't have a lot of Caucasus. As Jovialis pointed out, there is obviously Anatolian Bronze Age input into the Balkans,and it may have even begun in the Chalcolithic.

Now, I know the Slavs had their own percentage of Atlantic Med, and Northern European in that analysis includes Germanic as well, so this is not a sophisticated analysis, but I think it's pretty suggestive.

The "Slavic" input is the minority input in my opinion, although the answer will come only when we have an invasion era migrating "Slav" to whom we can compare both the pre-existing population and modern populations.

Do I think the Slavs had more impact on most of the Balkans than, say, the Langobards on Italy? Yes, I do, but the extent,imo, for countries like Bulgaria, Romania, and even Serbia, is, imo, exaggerated.

As for Albanians, for the sake of the discussion, if it's true that the Roman Era Illyrians were, say, perhaps Central Italian like (which I absolutely don't know), then the Slavic input did move them, but not tremendously far. They are as southern shifted as Tuscans, but shifted east because of the Slavic input.

Now, given we don't have the "right" ancient samples yet, this may be wrong, but given what we have, this is how I currently see it.
 
angela i am 1/4 bulgarian
and i score 11% east europe in ftdna my origins 2.0
so i guess a full bulgarian might score close to 40% east europe in my origins 2.0
the slavic elements is there in modern bulgarians
afcorse they are different from russians and other north slavs
but they still have slavic dna and not so low .....:unsure:
let us remember the thracian iron age sample I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria (500-400 BC she doesn't score east central euro and central euro in eurogenes k36
which modern bulgarian do score ......
so the slavic signature is there in modern bulgarian

I don't at all doubt the Slavic signature is there. It is NOT, however, the majority of the ancestry even at 40%, which I think is too high.

My objection was to these comments that there was more Slav in Balkanites than there was of the pre-existing population. Looking at their autosomal make-up that's impossible, imo.

No offense, also, but FTDNA is just awful. I wouldn't rely on their numbers at all.
 
No, Ihype, I wasn't referring to you, but I do completely disagree with you, and with that modeling. I don't know where you got it, but it makes no sense to me as to the overall genetics of Balkan people.

My point was that while many Balkanites may speak a Slavic language, they are not by any stretch of the imagination "Slavs", imo.

My reasoning is in part based on the excel sheet to which I linked in post Number 110.

As I suggested in that post, just add up the numbers for Atlantic Med (which is basically a stand in for EEF and WHG), Caucasus, and South West Asian for each population. Conveniently, Romanians come right before Russians in the sheet, but do it for all of them if you wish, including Albanians. Then compare the numbers versus the numbers for "real" Slavs, like Russians and Poles.

I have no idea how people could have gotten the idea that the Balkans doesn't have a lot of Caucasus. As Jovialis pointed out, there is obviously Anatolian Bronze Age input into the Balkans,and it may have even begun in the Chalcolithic.

Now, I know the Slavs had their own percentage of Atlantic Med, and Northern European in that analysis includes Germanic as well, so this is not a sophisticated analysis, but I think it's pretty suggestive.

The "Slavic" input is the minority input in my opinion, although the answer will come only when we have an invasion era migrating "Slav" to whom we can compare both the pre-existing population and modern populations.

Do I think the Slavs had more impact on most of the Balkans than, say, the Langobards on Italy? Yes, I do, but the extent,imo, for countries like Bulgaria, Romania, and even Serbia, is, imo, exaggerated.

As for Albanians, for the sake of the discussion, if it's true that the Roman Era Illyrians were, say, perhaps Central Italian like (which I absolutely don't know), then the Slavic input did move them, but not tremendously far. They are as southern shifted as Tuscans, but shifted east because of the Slavic input.

Now, given we don't have the "right" ancient samples yet, this may be wrong, but given what we have, this is how I currently see it.
The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.

As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.

The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them
 
I don't at all doubt the Slavic signature is there. It is NOT, however, the majority of the ancestry even at 40%, which I think is too high.

My objection was to these comments that there was more Slav in Balkanites than there was of the pre-existing population. Looking at their autosomal make-up that's impossible, imo.

No offense, also, but FTDNA is just awful. I wouldn't rely on their numbers at all.

at least we agree on that :cool-v:
if many tests telling you the same thing it is there ....
from dna tribes, to ftdna , my heritage , even k29 in geneplazza detect the slavic signatures....
but i do agree with you that slavic elements are less than the dna of the thracians who where before or EEF before them


p.s
culture is also important those slavic invaders gave the bulgarians there language :)
it is like modern turk from anatolia carry turkic genetic signatures that wasn't high
but gave the Anatolian the turkic language they speak now
 
The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.
As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.
The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them

Croats are the most Slavic admixed people in the Balkans from every analysis I've ever seen.
 
6TjWeeC.png


Can we even confirm if I3313 is actually Illyrian? I searched for the word in the study it is from, and found no results. I would like to see some confirmation on the archeological designation. MTA has made mistakes before.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317094992_The_Genomic_History_Of_Southeastern_Europe

As I said before, I believe the predecessors of Albanians, were Greek/Southern Italian-like, and were pulled north/east towards their modern position, due to Slavic admixture.

Perhaps the actual Illyrians were Greek/South Italian-like, like the Mycenaeans:

lUlQXV4.jpg


Dear Jovialis, I3313 is female. She was from period of 1500 - 900 BCE in Dalmatia. I doubt that any researcher who is serious enough would classify these samples as Illyrian. They were too early to be Illyrians as we know them. She was probably closer to 1500 BCE then to 900 BCE. However these are people that will later develop into Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes as Etruscans for example since Etruscans for example are confirmed by aDNA so its not guessing. Illyrians never occupied Italy and conquered its mainlands. It was Indo-Europeans.

Sample I4331 was male from 1700 - 1500 BCE also from Dalmatia. He belonged to haplogroup J2-L283. He left no direct descendants, but closest significant group to him is found among J2-L283 Albanians where this haplotype can go up to 25 - 30 percent. They share same ancestor with him in time-frame of 4400 ybp, according to Yfull calculation.

He was by most reasonable theory which is backup by quite a few facts a Zagros mountain Hunter-Gatherer which anywhere from 15 000 ybp to 5 000 ybp expanded to North Caucasus and Black Sea, and there they were most likely picked up by R1b Bronze Age Indo-European tribes and expanded to Europe.

Here you can find solid information about these two samples: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-...l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/











@Dema,
R 850 is a Phoenician? Where on earth do you get that? Are you aware that the modern Lebanese are very close descendants of the Canaanites/Phoenicians? Do you see them anywhere on this list of closest modern populations from Eurogenes K13, who never gets Near Easterners right, or Italians, for that matter? It's either deliberate or incompetence. You're aware, yes, that the Dodecanese is off the coast of Anatolia?

Distance to:R850_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Iron_Age
4.12800497Greek_Dodecanese
5.35067285Greek_Chios
6.26520550Calabria
6.35148014Greek_Symi_Island
7.40556547Malta
8.29838539Turk_Cypriot
8.47106841Sicily
8.53762262East_Sicilian
8.62302151Sephardic_Jewish
9.30844778Campania
9.46088262Algerian_Jewish
9.58992179Central_Greek
10.57814729Italian_Jewish
10.61534738Apulia
10.67247862Ashkenazi
11.03320896Tunisian_Jewish
11.27887849Cyprian
11.27887849Greek_Cypriot
11.56409962Basilicata
11.56547448Molise
11.62612145Libyan_Jewish
11.84490608Greek_Andros_Island
12.31438996Abruzzo
12.83437572Moroccan_Jew
13.40095146Greek_Cappadocian

Let’s look at Dodecad

Distance to:R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
3.90799181Greek_Crete
7.13377179Ashkenazy_Jews
7.63860109Italy_Calabria
7.74058137Sephardic_Jews
7.82175172Ashkenazi
10.04684154Italy_Sicily
10.57089239Italy_Campania
10.88449356Greek_Cappadocia
11.39101962Italy_Apulia
11.86263040Cypriots
12.08694751Nusayri_Turkey
12.19292418Morocco_Jews
12.92056940Italy_Abruzzo
13.12759689Crimean_Tatar_Coast
13.17106678Turk_West_BlackSea
13.49063008Turk_Central_West
14.16544387Greek
14.43175665Turk_Central_East
14.45064012Turk_Anatolia
15.19421600Turk_Southwest
15.21064759Lebanese
15.74333510Turk_Northwest
15.93597503Turk_South
15.96534685Turk_Central_Black_Sea
16.59878610Turk_Southeast
That makes the most sense and was, I believe, also the conclusion of the paper.

You're aware, yes, that there were no Ashkenazi Jews at that time, and they're a more recent population which is anywhere from 40-60% European?

Did you also somehow miss this from Antonio et al? Who could look at that and say...PHOENICIAN????

XXEh5Xo.png



Obviously ludicrous claims like that make everything you say not only subject to ridicule, but undeserving of reasoned responses.

I will also point out once again some fundamental facts about the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. You have presented absolutely no historical or archaeological proof that the Greeks admixed with either group. When you make such claims absent proof, it’s not debate, it’s misinformation and t-rolling, and that isn’t permitted here.

In terms of Italians, the only Phoenician/Carthaginian settlements were, to repeat, on the northwestern part of Sicily and the southwestern part of Sardinia.

There was no war with Phoenicia. There were the Punic Wars with the Carthaginians, who were different people, with only the elites probably of Levantine origin. The rest of them would have been partly or mostly Berber. Now, you seem to have your dates confused as well. The Punic Wars have nothing to do with the middle to late Empire and any supposed genetic changes to the actual natives. The Carthaginians, much less the Phoenicians, didn’t exist by that time. The Punic Wars, for your information, occurred from 264 to 146 BC.

So, you seem to be implying an admixture with Phoenicians, who were actually Carthaginians, during the period of the Empire, when it was actually the Republic. During the course of those wars, indeed some of the “Carthaginian” soldiers were probably enslaved, and perhaps brought back to Italy, although they could have been bought all over the Empire. The bigger problem is that the VAST majority of the Carthaginian troops were not Carthaginians, much less Phoenicians; there were never enough of them, because they were mainly just elite traders. Probably most of the troops were, from the historical record, Spaniards and Alpine people and north Italians, including my Ligures. See the problem with your reasoning? This is what comes of not knowing any history.

Now, as to J2-M205, how the heck do you know where it formed?

I can’t figure out what, apart from the typical Albanian desire to t-roll Greeks could lead you to this conclusion, unless it’s that you still haven’t grasped or understood the fundamental principle in population genetics that y dna DOES NOT DETERMINE ETHNICITY.

You do the same thing with J2b- I don’t know where it was first picked up and spread from, and I don’t care, but Albanians don’t own it and nor did the Illyrians. The fact that it shows up amongst Etruscans and modern Italians doesn’t mean “Illyrians” brought it there or that Etruscans were Illyrians. Certainly, Albanians don’t have anything to do with it. I realize that you were all taught you were the descendants of the Illyrians, but you’re certainly not very close to the samples we currently have, and are much further from them than are Italians, so let it go; it just makes you all look ridiculous.

Leaving all that aside, how could you possibly conclude that all the J2-M205 in Italy or Greece or anywhere else in Europe only comes from the Levant? Haven’t you done the least bit of unbiased research? Don't you realize how much came from Anatolia to Greece, and perhaps particularly, to Crete?

Don’t you see that your conclusions are not grounded in unbiased fact?

As for those ridiculous models, who made them? Was it Sikeliot acting as Portuguese Princess, or that card carrying Skin Head, Stormfront member Drac who used to regularly threaten me on this site?

You really have to start hanging around with a better class of people.

Everyone else can do as they wish, but I will no longer debate these issues with someone seemingly blithely drawing conclusions based on absolutely no actual facts.




Dear Angela,

I gave two examples from study of Ancient Rome that are for sure of Semitic/Canaanite and most likely of Phoenician origin.
However i didnt mention sample R850 anywhere but rather samples: R50 and R1283 which both belong to haplogroup J2-M205 therefore without doubt of previous Semitic and most likely Canaanite Phoenician origin. R50 autosomal is mix of Middle East and Italian.

Haplogroups J2-M205 and J2-L283 are kinda easy to research because of their lower TMRCA and ancient bones found relatively at same time period as their TMRCA therefore its not hard to pinpoint their origin.

https://j2-m172.info/2016/10/possib...ed-cts1969-cts5338-yp13-ph4306-ph1089-y22066/

Haplogroup J2-M205 has its oldest ancient DNA in Israel 2500 BCE, Jordan 2500 BCE, Canaanite Phoenician graves in ancient Sidon 1700 BCE.
J2-M205 TMRCA is 5900 ybp, its very easy to see where this haplogroup spread from. Highest percentage in the world of J2-M205 is in Cypriot Greeks, around 6 %. By study about Cyprus population, researchers concluded that Cypriot J2-M205 is most likely of pre-Greek strata. Cypriots are very close to Lebanese therefore everything is very clear.

Btw i dont say that only Phoenician admix pushes Mediterraneans to this position but also early Christians, Jews, Middle Eastern citizens of Roman Empire, but also Mediterranean connection which always provided good trades and chances of combining all this further together.
By my opinion this Mediterranean admix started to occur somewhere at 1000 BCE and was going on until end of Byzantine Empire.

Also Angela we are not betting on Roman Era Illyrians even tho they would not be bad choice also. I say anything from 500 BCE to 500 CE. 300 BCE Illyrians would be the best since they would be of pre-Roman occupation, and they were a lot influenced by earlier Greek colonies therefore it would not surprise me if they will be closer to South Italians, Albanians, and Central Greeks. I put my two cents that Albanians will be closest match.
 
The model is not meant to be taken literally. I believe the Slavic component is greater in Balkan Slavs than the native one maybe only the Bulgarians being an expection. But that's not something I can verify 100% just my opinion.
As for central Illyrians that was just a hypothesis. My bet is that either Dacians or Illyrians could be the original ancestors of Albanian, but it does not bother me if they aren't.
The samples we have right are very different especially from Croats. Severall years ago many people that Croats hardly push 30% Slavic, but ancient Dalmatians are nothing like them


well modern bulgarians cluster closest with ( southern romanians) autosomally speaking :unsure:

p.s
might be connected to the thracian dacian unity genetic signature
 
Last edited:
Regarding Etruscan 700 BCE sample which was expansion of Dalmatian 1700 BCE sample. So, If Dalmatian sample is really Indo-European expansion and if Etruscans were pre-IE population its possible that at this period of 700 BCE Etruscans already mixed with Indo-Europeans and that this sample does not represent original Etruscans.

It would need more Etruscan ancient bones to see what is their real origin.

J2-L283 origin is not 100 % known, they either arrived with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans or they arrived independently a bit earlier and then got assimilated by incoming Bronze Age Indo-Europeans. But judging by these two Dalmatian samples mtDNA and autosomal, they most likely arrived with Bronze-Age Indo-European expansion.
 
Don't forget the Nuragic sample late bronze age. They were not Indo-European and they did show some J2b2-L283.

There is a possibility Nuragics-Etruscans-Pre-Dalmatians to be related. Don't know. Revealing the Y-DNA of only one sample is totally missleading like they did with the Dalmatian, Mycenean, Etruscan etc,etc....
 
albanian also have slavic dna here:
this an albanian


PopulationPercent
1East_Med25.31
2West_Med21.39
3North_Atlantic19.62
4Baltic19.40
5West_Asian10.36
6Red_Sea2.53
7Amerindian1.03


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Greek_Thessaly @ 4.044597
2 Bulgarian @ 8.282966
3 Romanian @ 11.045584

Using 4 populations approximation:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.495685
2 Bulgarian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 2.509703
 
I3313, female, Jazinka cave, excavated in 2009. Among material found with her were the eyeglass-like bronze fibula and a bronze button. These items were also found at Iapodian site in Kompolje, so based on this (especially fibula) it looks like a likely proto-Iapodian found.
 
One more ethnic slur, buddy, and you're banned for life. Am I clear?

You really want to start this???

If it weren't for the fact that there are some decent Albanian posters here whom I wouldn't want to offend I could go off on you even more. You really want to compare Italy and Albania?

CUT IT OUT, and don't ruin it for them too.

I can't remember how many times I have stopped other Balkanites from t-rolling Albanians and this is the crap I get in return. What's wrong with you?

Albanians need no protection from anyone.
Administer the discussion ethically, avoiding conclusions on our mental health.....and possible breakdown.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Last edited:

This thread has been viewed 65364 times.

Back
Top