Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

These are my top 25 populations in G25

Distance to:Progon_scaled
0.02208450Albanian
0.02223885Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02615174Greek_Thessaly
0.03190721Swiss_Italian
0.03270794Italian_Tuscany
0.03282051Greek_Peloponnese
0.03285553Italian_Piedmont
0.03499672Italian_Marche
0.03575619Gagauz
0.03621515Italian_Veneto
0.03675538Bulgarian
0.03703866Italian_Umbria
0.03767072Macedonian
0.03827807Italian_Northeast
0.03839669Greek_Izmir
0.03945753Italian_Molise
0.04018437Italian_Bergamo
0.04083347Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04122828Italian_Liguria
0.04179356Italian_Lazio
0.04195991Romanian
0.04260177Italian_Abruzzo
0.04272890Italian_Lombardy
0.04367691French_Corsica
0.04644384Serbian

Averaged Albanian

Distance to:Albanian
0.01172523Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01647191Greek_Thessaly
0.02621927Greek_Peloponnese
0.02764228Italian_Tuscany
0.02824767Swiss_Italian
0.02837148Italian_Piedmont
0.02864146Gagauz
0.02928925Italian_Marche
0.03115133Greek_Izmir
0.03122240Bulgarian
0.03123173Italian_Umbria
0.03281939Italian_Molise
0.03485838Italian_Veneto
0.03520665Italian_Abruzzo
0.03532947Macedonian
0.03557118Italian_Lazio
0.03625818Italian_Liguria
0.03725645Italian_Bergamo
0.03739630Italian_Northeast
0.03834255French_Corsica
0.03850606Romanian
0.03882988Italian_Apulia
0.03901760Italian_Lombardy
0.03936900Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04005893Italian_Basilicata
 
These are my top 25 populations in G25

Distance to:Progon_scaled
0.02208450Albanian
0.02223885Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02615174Greek_Thessaly
0.03190721Swiss_Italian
0.03270794Italian_Tuscany
0.03282051Greek_Peloponnese
0.03285553Italian_Piedmont
0.03499672Italian_Marche
0.03575619Gagauz
0.03621515Italian_Veneto
0.03675538Bulgarian
0.03703866Italian_Umbria
0.03767072Macedonian
0.03827807Italian_Northeast
0.03839669Greek_Izmir
0.03945753Italian_Molise
0.04018437Italian_Bergamo
0.04083347Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04122828Italian_Liguria
0.04179356Italian_Lazio
0.04195991Romanian
0.04260177Italian_Abruzzo
0.04272890Italian_Lombardy
0.04367691French_Corsica
0.04644384Serbian

Averaged Albanian

Distance to:Albanian
0.01172523Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.01647191Greek_Thessaly
0.02621927Greek_Peloponnese
0.02764228Italian_Tuscany
0.02824767Swiss_Italian
0.02837148Italian_Piedmont
0.02864146Gagauz
0.02928925Italian_Marche
0.03115133Greek_Izmir
0.03122240Bulgarian
0.03123173Italian_Umbria
0.03281939Italian_Molise
0.03485838Italian_Veneto
0.03520665Italian_Abruzzo
0.03532947Macedonian
0.03557118Italian_Lazio
0.03625818Italian_Liguria
0.03725645Italian_Bergamo
0.03739630Italian_Northeast
0.03834255French_Corsica
0.03850606Romanian
0.03882988Italian_Apulia
0.03901760Italian_Lombardy
0.03936900Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04005893Italian_Basilicata


Very odd placement of Italian provinces relative to one another. Particularly odd that an Albanian would be closer to A Swiss Italian of all things than Tuscany and other Italian provinces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's got some wonky regional Italian samples. Maybe they're from Sizzi from who knows what source.
 
Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 2.4082% / 0.02408223
48.2SRB_N
42.8Corded_Ware_DEU
4.8Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.2Iberia_MN


Target: HRV_EBA
Distance: 2.6429% / 0.02642909

37.6GRC_Peloponnese_N
36.2Corded_Ware_DEU
15.0Iberia_MN
9.8Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.4Taforalt

Target: HRV_MBA
Distance: 1.7605% / 0.01760454
28.8GRC_Peloponnese_N
22.8Corded_Ware_DEU
21.8UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
13.4SRB_N
13.2Iberia_MN


Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.0506% / 0.02050612
37.0GRC_Peloponnese_N
27.0SRB_N
13.8Corded_Ware_DEU
11.8Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
7.4UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
3.0Baltic_EST_BA


Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 2.1308% / 0.02130805
39.0GRC_Peloponnese_N
24.2Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
23.2SRB_N
6.2Corded_Ware_DEU
4.8Iberia_MN
2.0Baltic_EST_BA
0.6UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA

Interesting how HRV_MBA shows increase of Srubnaya admixture.
 
Also, interesting how HRV_EBA, HRV_MBA and HRV_IA require Iberia_MN with HRV_EBA requiring additional Taforalt 1%.
 
Here is mine for example.

G25 Ancient Average Scaled:

Distance to:Dibran_scaled
0.03819516UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.03979503HRV_MBA
0.04350113ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04463139ITA_Rome_MA
0.04538327ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.04556745ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04576255BGR_IA
0.05032631Scythian_MDA
0.05182707TUR_IA_low_res
0.05209172Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.05223886IND_Roopkund_B
0.05234364HRV_EBA
0.05280019HRV_IA
0.05457912BGR_EBA
0.05636563ITA_Etruscan
0.05701967ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05736240DEU_MA_o
0.05791531HUN_BA
0.05847323Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.06167637HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.06206766ITA_Villanovan
0.06317539ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.06330347Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.06412221DEU_Roman
0.06434883ITA_Rome_Latini_IA


G25 Modern Average Scaled:

Distance to:Dibran_scaled
0.03307345Albanian
0.03362317Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03371168Greek_Peloponnese
0.03843979Greek_Thessaly
0.04079163Italian_Tuscany
0.04080310Italian_Umbria
0.04150649Swiss_Italian
0.04165860Greek_Izmir
0.04297133Italian_Piedmont
0.04460989French_Corsica
0.04495230Italian_Marche
0.04512751Italian_Lazio
0.04564201Italian_Veneto
0.04581532Italian_Molise
0.04779166Italian_Bergamo
0.04826116Italian_Abruzzo
0.05007064Italian_Northeast
0.05097348Macedonian
0.05101764Bulgarian
0.05103895Italian_Basilicata
0.05137331Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.05146584Italian_Apulia
0.05150339Gagauz
0.05355549Italian_Lombardy
0.05549639Romanian


Ancient & Modern Scaled:

Distance to:Dibran_scaled
0.03307345Albanian
0.03362317Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03371168Greek_Peloponnese
0.03819516UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.03843979Greek_Thessaly
0.03979503HRV_MBA
0.04079163Italian_Tuscany
0.04080310Italian_Umbria
0.04150649Swiss_Italian
0.04165860Greek_Izmir
0.04297133Italian_Piedmont
0.04350113ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04460989French_Corsica
0.04463139ITA_Rome_MA
0.04495230Italian_Marche
0.04512751Italian_Lazio
0.04538327ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.04556745ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04564201Italian_Veneto
0.04576255BGR_IA
0.04581532Italian_Molise
0.04779166Italian_Bergamo
0.04826116Italian_Abruzzo
0.05007064Italian_Northeast
0.05032631Scythian_MDA


Ancient Averaged Unscaled:

Distance to:Dibran
0.02071232ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.02294058UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.02336878HRV_MBA
0.02485089IND_Roopkund_B
0.02501080BGR_IA
0.02532411ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.02657749Scythian_MDA
0.02784097ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02947279GRC_Mycenaean
0.02959307TUR_IA_low_res
0.03006683ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.03053572Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.03054532TUR_Isparta_EBA
0.03060085ITA_Rome_MA
0.03201531DEU_MA_o
0.03209692BGR_EBA
0.03219527ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03336342Scythian_HUN
0.03390443HUN_BA
0.03403248DEU_Roman
0.03501650ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.03523613TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.03549616Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.03552895TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.03611717ITA_Villanovan



Modern Average Unscaled:

Distance to:Dibran
0.01802422Greek_Peloponnese
0.02104356Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02132171Greek_Izmir
0.02139280Albanian
0.02633785Greek_Thessaly
0.02648207Italian_Basilicata
0.02676870Italian_Umbria
0.02684215Greek_Kos
0.02737663Italian_Molise
0.02750118Turkish_Rumeli
0.02751184Macedonian
0.02760827Bulgarian
0.02795416Italian_Calabria
0.02821664Swiss_Italian
0.02821979Romanian
0.02849987Italian_Tuscany
0.02877807Italian_Northeast
0.02879109Italian_Abruzzo
0.02881555Italian_Apulia
0.02893018Montenegrin
0.02916004Italian_Campania
0.02934133Italian_Veneto
0.02950539Italian_Lazio
0.03017011French_Corsica
0.03045210Gagauz


Ancient & Modern Unscaled:

Distance to:Dibran
0.01802422Greek_Peloponnese
0.02071232ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.02104356Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02132171Greek_Izmir
0.02139280Albanian
0.02294058UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.02336878HRV_MBA
0.02485089IND_Roopkund_B
0.02501080BGR_IA
0.02532411ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.02633785Greek_Thessaly
0.02648207Italian_Basilicata
0.02657749Scythian_MDA
0.02676870Italian_Umbria
0.02684215Greek_Kos
0.02737663Italian_Molise
0.02750118Turkish_Rumeli
0.02751184Macedonian
0.02760827Bulgarian
0.02784097ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02795416Italian_Calabria
0.02821664Swiss_Italian
0.02821979Romanian
0.02849987Italian_Tuscany
0.02877807Italian_Northeast

 
This Szolad Sz43 sample is the closest ancient sample to me, it looks like he was a Pannonian probably?

Distance to:Progon_scaled
0.03299762HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03438320IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03482785HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03756047HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03832633ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03939553IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03964654ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.04018759ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04031992Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04085139DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54
0.04117742ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04135765ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04174284HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04206426HUN_BA:I7043
0.04232969HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04239937ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04252108ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04253080UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04254209Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
0.04297053HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04341950HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04392579Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04399249DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310
0.04423490HRV_IA:I3313
 
Very odd placement of Italian provinces relative to one another. Particularly odd that an Albanian would be closer to A Swiss Italian of all things than Tuscany and other Italian provinces.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. He's got some wonky regional Italian samples. Maybe they're from Sizzi from who knows what source.

If it's G25, G25 averages are from academic samples (and here it would be necessary to open another discussion, on how reliable academic samples are, and how many mistakes the creator of the G25 can make, both in good faith and in bad faith). Sizzi has nothing to do with G25.
 
This Szolad Sz43 sample is the closest ancient sample to me, it looks like he was a Pannonian probably?

Distance to:Progon_scaled
0.03299762HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03438320IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03482785HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03756047HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03832633ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03939553IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03964654ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.04018759ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04031992Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04085139DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54
0.04117742ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04135765ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04174284HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04206426HUN_BA:I7043
0.04232969HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04239937ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04252108ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04253080UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04254209Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
0.04297053HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04341950HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04392579Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04399249DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310
0.04423490HRV_IA:I3313

I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.
 
I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.

I am closer to SZ36. (590 AD)
But more interesting is SZ1 (1000 BC)



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
I don't remember a single ancient sample from South Balkans expect for one Thracian the the Myceneans. This is probably from the Northern Balkans.

Yes, he was from Western part of Hungary, Szolad region. I don't know what was his affiliations but he was some sort of Y-DNA I2a2 (not the current Balkan clade).
 
I am closer to SZ36. (590 AD)
But more interesting is SZ1 (1000 BC)



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

SZ1 is closer to central europe and northern balkans

Distance to:HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1
0.03959387Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04072557ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04644136ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23
0.04664864HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.04998453DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310
0.05183235Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.05271694DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54
0.05287391ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR60
0.05293926Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524
 
SZ1 is closer to central europe and northern balkans

Distance to:HUN_Avar_Period:SZ1
0.03959387Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04072557ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04644136ITA_Collegno_MA:CL23
0.04664864HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.04998453DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310
0.05183235Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.05271694DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54
0.05287391ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR60
0.05293926Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524

SZ1 seems Hallstatt


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Interesting topic, but I don't know the answer.
I used as a source for the eastern Mediterranean the average of Crete, for the western Mediterranean the people of Sardinia, for 'Nordic' the average of Norway And for northeastern Europe the Ukrainian average.


Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.5340% / 0.01533967

54.2East_Med
27.0North_east_europe
16.8Southwest_Euro
1.8Nordic
0.2Nganassan
 
You may already have done this, but in case you haven't.

If you're speaking of sample 13313, this is what mta says are his closest modern populations:
1. Spanish_Extremadura (6.749)
2. Spanish_Murcia (6.887)
3. Spanish_Cataluna (6.957)
4. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (7.206)
5. Spanish_Andalucia (7.233)
6. Spanish_Valencia (7.494)
7. North_Italian (7.731)
8. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (7.798)

SZ1 :Bronze Age Hungary (I'm at 9.7)

1. Kosovar (7.704)
2. Albanian_Tosk (7.894)
3. Tuscan (8.468)
4. Bulgarian (9.955)
5. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)
6. North_Italian (10.36)
7. Greek (10.66)
8. Romanian (10.71)

Croatian (Bronze) 14311)
1. Portuguese (8.380)
2. Spanish_Murcia (8.547)
3. Spanish_Cataluna (8.557)
4. Spanish_Extremadura (9.096)
5. North_Italian (9.319)
6. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (9.484)
7. Spanish_Galicia (9.666)
8. Spanish_Valencia (10.79)


On the original paper it was concluded that the Illyrian / Bronze Age female sample found in Dalmatia was clustering closest to other Balkan people, She is the JAZ1 on this PCA Map. She was actually found many years ago.

cIKQODU.png



Other Ancient Balkan samples also appeared closer to Albanians and other Balkan people rather than Italians on the original that I saw published by David Reich apparently (like that one found in Moldova/Romania) except for one Bronze Age found in Western Montenegro which was like an Iberian.

I contacted Reich's former colleagues and they told me most of these samples are low quality. There was also an Iron Age from 900 or so that was extreme low quality apparently and on gedmatch it clustered like a North-East European. There are some others that have been found that on gedmatch clustered weird too.


I don't understand why a Bronze Age from Hungary would be clustering closest to Kosovars. Clearly this must be a coincidence. But that was also not too far away from Illyrian territory. Just a bit north actually.
 
Some Thracians also found years ago clustered really South or really North and some just East of Tuscans. These people were clearly a mix of different populations so even by the Bronze Age or Iron Age such genes weren't fully diluted to produce Greek like or Albanian like people. Therefore I don't see what's the point of comparing them to such a small population like Albanians that descendant, according to genetic studies, from a small population that rapidly expanded within the last 1500 years and showing one of the highest IBD sharing within their own population among Europeans. (But apparently also sharing a lot of ancestors with Italians, Macedonians, Greeks and other Balkanites.)

It is likely a cluster like Albanians formed much later from a small population resulting from a bottle neck effect. Does not mean it's main ancestor is not Illyrian. Or Thracian or anything. As it is clear Albanians are from a pre-Slavic Balkan population and the language originated somewhere north of the jirek line, most plausible would be Western or Central Balkans IMO.
 
On the original paper it was concluded that the Illyrian / Bronze Age female sample found in Dalmatia was clustering closest to other Balkan people, She is the JAZ1 on this PCA Map. She was actually found many years ago.

cIKQODU.png



Other Ancient Balkan samples also appeared closer to Albanians and other Balkan people rather than Italians on the original that I saw published by David Reich apparently (like that one found in Moldova/Romania) except for one Bronze Age found in Western Montenegro which was like an Iberian.

I contacted Reich's former colleagues and they told me most of these samples are low quality. There was also an Iron Age from 900 or so that was extreme low quality apparently and on gedmatch it clustered like a North-East European. There are some others that have been found that on gedmatch clustered weird too.


I don't understand why a Bronze Age from Hungary would be clustering closest to Kosovars. Clearly this must be a coincidence. But that was also not too far away from Illyrian territory. Just a bit north actually.

I don't know to which paper you're referring or the exact source of that PDA. At any rate, I have no idea why you'd base any conclusions whatsoever on samples of this kind of quality.

Ignore them, would be my advice.

We have decent quality samples. Draw your conclusions from those.
 

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