Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 193

Thread: Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Post Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

    If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

    I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.

  2. #2
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,069
    Points
    395,783
    Level
    100
    Points: 395,783, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

    I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.
    You may already have done this, but in case you haven't.

    If you're speaking of sample 13313, this is what mta says are his closest modern populations:
    1. Spanish_Extremadura (6.749)
    2. Spanish_Murcia (6.887)
    3. Spanish_Cataluna (6.957)
    4. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (7.206)
    5. Spanish_Andalucia (7.233)
    6. Spanish_Valencia (7.494)
    7. North_Italian (7.731)
    8. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (7.798)

    SZ1 :Bronze Age Hungary (I'm at 9.7)

    1. Kosovar (7.704)
    2. Albanian_Tosk (7.894)
    3. Tuscan (8.468)
    4. Bulgarian (9.955)
    5. Greek_Thessaly (10.26)
    6. North_Italian (10.36)
    7. Greek (10.66)
    8. Romanian (10.71)

    Croatian (Bronze) 14311)
    1. Portuguese (8.380)
    2. Spanish_Murcia (8.547)
    3. Spanish_Cataluna (8.557)
    4. Spanish_Extremadura (9.096)
    5. North_Italian (9.319)
    6. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (9.484)
    7. Spanish_Galicia (9.666)
    8. Spanish_Valencia (10.79)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

    I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.
    You have no idea how wrong you are. Firstly Iron Age Illyrian is more Northern shifted because she is Iapodian (I believe even by archaeological location), nothing to do with "Latins", who barely existed at the time and were not migrating to Illyrian areas. Iapodes have received additional Urnfield admixture in LBA/EIA. These Urnfield people would have been Bell-Beaker-like.

    I actually think some linguistic evidence might point to Illyrian connection, but here's something about autosomal DNA.

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 10.8025% / 10.80252316
    83.8 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.2 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 3.1523% / 3.15229064
    74.0 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    26.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    Lets take your advice and remove the Slavic component from the Albanians.
    Modelling the Slavs as average of Sungir6 and AV2, assuming Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admix. (Slav-Sungir6.AV2,27.93,46.57,12.08,4.33,4.39,0.61,0.25, 0.00,2.08,0.99,0.29,0.48,0.00)

    Here is N.Albanian K13 minus 25 % of Slavic
    Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav,19.60,8.30,25.49,12 .07,29.54,3.33,0.73,0.51,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.01,0.00

    Who are SZ40 and SZ43??

    SZ40 Langobard looks like a Romanized Thracian/Mysian, away from Illyrians. Female.

    Distance to: SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    10.58235796 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    11.69874780 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    13.47761848 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    14.35825547 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    15.69379814 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.80639759 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    18.97208739 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    20.30019212 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    21.48707751 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


    SZ19 is a Thracian, it's crazy how Thracian she is considering IA Thracian sample was more Southern shifted yet SZ19 is much much closer to Thracian than to Myceneans or anyone else.
    Distance to: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    4.31142668 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    11.69874780 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    13.00880471 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    15.82648413 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    17.62164862 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    18.43425887 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    18.93289465 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    19.72673313 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    20.07776880 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_

    SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
    Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_


    Now where does our North Albanian without 25 % of Slavic cluster?
    Distance to: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
    4.22202558 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    8.96922516 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    10.94313483 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    11.17245273 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    12.00272469 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    12.55558043 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    15.14445113 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    15.56958252 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc
    18.34741399 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    18.55283536 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    20.75844407 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


    The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

    Scy192 from Moldova from 300 BC is also way closer to a proto-Albanian candidate than Illyrians:
    Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    3.16608591 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    13.47761848 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    13.96434030 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    14.32547032 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.12145465 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    16.63311456 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    16.64757340 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    18.43425887 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    24.19005167 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

    Scy197 is V13+, Somebody added wrong dates for these samples.
    Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    6.63604551 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    8.98541040 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    11.51131183 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    12.16415225 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    13.37844535 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    14.55909338 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    14.93957831 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    15.05223239 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    16.20738103 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp


    These "Scythians" are surely 100 % Getae, look at their distance to Early IA Thraco-Cimmerian from the similar area. Superficial partial similarity to proto-Illyrians is due to more Steppe admixture, but in their case it is not Bell Beaker derived like in Illyrians, rather Yamnaya.

    So having N.Albanians without the 25 % of Slavic autosomal makes them Thracians. And Albanians (this sample for sure) cannot be modelled as Illyrian + little Slavic because the distances are too great.

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 13.0927% / 13.09274359
    86.0 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    14.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 13.0355% / 13.03550408
    88.0 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 14.8717% / 14.87173063
    88.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    You see these combinations with Illyrians don't work with only 12-14 % of Slavic admixture!!

    ofc Albanians have some Slavic autosomal influence, they have more Baltic in K13 than any Paleo-Balkan population. And way more than Illyrians.

    Well we see there were a bunch of romanized Thracians among the Szolad samples, likely heavy with E-V13. So looking at these results it seems some of these V13's positioned in Illyrian areas today might actually be Romans of Thracian origins. I think it is quite possible even that Illyrians had no more than 5-10 % of V13, and were like 50 % J-L283 and completely opposite with the Thracians (including Northern Thracians/Dacians/Getae). Albanians do have significant Y-DNA Illyrian ancestry but it looks like they have heavy Thracian autosomal admixture.

    SZ1 quoted by Angela (And BA date should be a mistake) has some Germanic admixture in the study. And indeed
    Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    Distance: 6.6138% / 6.61379823
    88.6 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.4 German_West

    Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    Distance: 6.4739% / 6.47391514
    68.2 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    31.8 SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

    SZ12 is a Germanic proper sample.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Btw. here's something that works for North Albanian samples (assuming 25 % of Slavic), with Illyrians being a factor. Getae_Thracian is a 50-50 mix of I5769 Thracian and MJ12 Thraco-Cimmerian. Mycenaeans must be introduced for this model. Getae is 1/3 MJ12, Scy197 and Scy192
    Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192,19.47,15.97,25.55,11.98,2 1.45,2.86,0.18,0.00,1.37,0.73,0.44,0.00,0.00


    Target: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
    Distance: 3.3832% / 3.38317130
    48.8 I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    36.2 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    15.0 Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192




    Target: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
    Distance: 3.4720% / 3.47197076
    38.6 I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    35.4 Getae_Thracian
    26.0 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp

    This I5769-MJ12 mix comes out as close
    Distance to: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
    4.22202558 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    5.42514516 Getae_Thracian
    11.28077125 Getae.MJ12.Scy197.Scy192
    15.71476058 I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    18.34741399 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    18.55283536 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp


    There are some other Albanian samples, one might try reducing Slavic, and adding some Germanic.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    You have no idea how wrong you are. Firstly Iron Age Illyrian is more Northern shifted because she is Iapodian (I believe even by archaeological location), nothing to do with "Latins", who barely existed at the time and were not migrating to Illyrian areas. Iapodes have received additional Urnfield admixture in LBA/EIA. These Urnfield people would have been Bell-Beaker-like.

    I actually think some linguistic evidence might point to Illyrian connection, but here's something about autosomal DNA.

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 10.8025% / 10.80252316
    83.8 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.2 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 3.1523% / 3.15229064
    74.0 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    26.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    Lets take your advice and remove the Slavic component from the Albanians.
    Modelling the Slavs as average of Sungir6 and AV2, assuming Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admix. (Slav-Sungir6.AV2,27.93,46.57,12.08,4.33,4.39,0.61,0.25, 0.00,2.08,0.99,0.29,0.48,0.00)

    Here is N.Albanian K13 minus 25 % of Slavic
    Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav,19.60,8.30,25.49,12 .07,29.54,3.33,0.73,0.51,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.01,0.00

    Who are SZ40 and SZ43??

    SZ40 Langobard looks like a Romanized Thracian/Mysian, away from Illyrians. Female.

    Distance to: SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    10.58235796 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    11.69874780 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    13.47761848 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    14.35825547 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    15.69379814 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.80639759 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    18.97208739 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    20.30019212 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    21.48707751 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


    SZ19 is a Thracian, it's crazy how Thracian she is considering IA Thracian sample was more Southern shifted yet SZ19 is much much closer to Thracian than to Myceneans or anyone else.
    Distance to: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    4.31142668 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    11.69874780 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    13.00880471 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    15.82648413 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    17.62164862 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    18.43425887 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    18.93289465 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    19.72673313 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    20.07776880 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_

    SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
    Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_


    Now where does our North Albanian without 25 % of Slavic cluster?
    Distance to: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
    4.22202558 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    8.96922516 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    10.94313483 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    11.17245273 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    12.00272469 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    12.55558043 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    15.14445113 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    15.56958252 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc
    18.34741399 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    18.55283536 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    20.75844407 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


    The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

    Scy192 from Moldova from 300 BC is also way closer to a proto-Albanian candidate than Illyrians:
    Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    3.16608591 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    13.47761848 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    13.96434030 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    14.32547032 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    16.12145465 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    16.63311456 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    16.64757340 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    18.43425887 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    24.19005167 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

    Scy197 is V13+, Somebody added wrong dates for these samples.
    Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    6.63604551 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    8.98541040 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    11.51131183 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    12.16415225 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    13.37844535 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    14.55909338 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    14.93957831 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    15.05223239 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    16.20738103 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp


    These "Scythians" are surely 100 % Getae, look at their distance to Early IA Thraco-Cimmerian from the similar area. Superficial partial similarity to proto-Illyrians is due to more Steppe admixture, but in their case it is not Bell Beaker derived like in Illyrians, rather Yamnaya.

    So having N.Albanians without the 25 % of Slavic autosomal makes them Thracians. And Albanians (this sample for sure) cannot be modelled as Illyrian + little Slavic because the distances are too great.

    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 13.0927% / 13.09274359
    86.0 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    14.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 13.0355% / 13.03550408
    88.0 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


    Target: Albanian_north_Albania
    Distance: 14.8717% / 14.87173063
    88.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

    You see these combinations with Illyrians don't work with only 12-14 % of Slavic admixture!!

    ofc Albanians have some Slavic autosomal influence, they have more Baltic in K13 than any Paleo-Balkan population. And way more than Illyrians.

    Well we see there were a bunch of romanized Thracians among the Szolad samples, likely heavy with E-V13. So looking at these results it seems some of these V13's positioned in Illyrian areas today might actually be Romans of Thracian origins. I think it is quite possible even that Illyrians had no more than 5-10 % of V13, and were like 50 % J-L283 and completely opposite with the Thracians (including Northern Thracians/Dacians/Getae). Albanians do have significant Y-DNA Illyrian ancestry but it looks like they have heavy Thracian autosomal admixture.

    SZ1 quoted by Angela (And BA date should be a mistake) has some Germanic admixture in the study. And indeed
    Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    Distance: 6.6138% / 6.61379823
    88.6 Albanian_Kosovo
    11.4 German_West

    Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
    Distance: 6.4739% / 6.47391514
    68.2 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    31.8 SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

    SZ12 is a Germanic proper sample.
    lol, no one will read your shitty long posts. You have no idea about the calculator effects. Your mental model in your head is extreme hatred toward Albanians, and refuse anything they have a say regarding the ancient history. After the Caucasus theory of Serbs got burned, then they switched to Thracian and now Dacian. It's typical of you.

    I have created models in G25 regarding those Scythian samples and Peloponessians are way closer to them than i am. Somewhat tricky to point, these calculators are quite limited. They work by admixture proportions.

    Here is a model:




  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    lol, no one will read your shitty long posts. You have no idea about the calculator effects. Your mental model in your head is extreme hatred toward Albanians, and refuse anything they have a say regarding the ancient history.
    Why would I have "extreme hatred" towards Albanians or such "love" towards Serbs? Well you obviously read it, I'll make it longer next time. Besides much of it was calc data so just copy paste. I surely did 100 times more to reconstruct the paths of some Albanian Y-DNA lineages than you. (and ofc you did nothing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    After the Caucasus theory of Serbs got burned, then they switched to Thracian and now Dacian. It's typical of you.
    Where did I promote any Caucasus theory ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I have created models in G25 regarding those Scythian samples and Peloponessians are way closer to them than i am. Somewhat tricky to point, these calculators are quite limited. They work by admixture proportions.

    Here is a model:
    Your model has you as having 1/4 of Germanic? Germanic influence seems far lower than Slavic autosomally around the Balkans. Who is "Iron age Greek"? That Cretan low coverage "Dorian" sample?? I don't think that sample is reliable. Greeks are heavily admixed, with heavy Slavic admixture in areas such as Macedonia, also in areas with Albanian and Vlach admixture such as Peloponessus for Albanian and Thessaly for the Vlach. Only some islander Greeks are some indication.

    So you are closer to Illyrian in G25, what about Iberians?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Say it again, you did what? You did nothing lol.

    Peloponessian samples are very Southern Balkans, and have no Albanian or Vlach ancestry.

    The Greek Iron Age is from Empuries2, they were probably with origin from Hellenic Anatolian coast. And no, the model was not to prove that i am very close to Dalmatians which i am not in comparison with North Italians, one more thing to note is those samples don't have Anatolian_Tepecik Ciftlig which Albanians and Greeks have it which might be a LBA/IA influence from Anatolia considering that Myceneans didn't have it.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    btw, Northern Italians are the closest to Dalmatians not Spaniards. This makes sense, not the one modelling Mexicans/Urugyans as Illyrian + Mayan lol.















    And, this is mine:


  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Say it again, you did what? You did nothing lol.
    Check the J-L283 topic. I identified the culture where the found was made and also I was the one instrumental when looking about cultural relatives of that find, how did the hg expand etc. You on the other hand were saying how J-L283 is only found in Ghegs, and "not so Illyrian". Well obviously you are bit of jelly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Peloponessian samples are very Southern Balkans, and have no Albanian or Vlach ancestry.
    Not as Southern as Iron Age Greeks, still heavy Slavic influence and Arvanite it seems as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    The Greek Iron Age is from Empuries2, they were probably with origin from Hellenic Anatolian coast. And no, the model was not to prove that i am very close to Dalmatians which i am not in comparison with North Italians, one more thing to note is those samples don't have Anatolian_Tepecik Ciftlig which Albanians and Greeks have it which might be a LBA/IA influence from Anatolia considering that Myceneans didn't have it.
    I see, looks very Greek, namely looks Mycenaean + something Northern Balkan which arrived in Dorian invasions. Which is when most of E-V13 arrived to the Greece. Unlike your idiotic claim that our hg is "through and through Southern Balkan" that is some Pelasgian slaves. No E-V13 is native to Greece or Southern Albania. They expanded to those areas.

    The ancestor of all modern E-V13 practiced Kurgan burial, deal with it, anybody denying that is unworthy to be a E-V13.

    Progon being Progon, Anatolian Neolithic Ciftlig is an indication of LBA/IA ancestry/influence, Anatolian Ciftlig was an ancestor of EEF's!!! And by the EBA, BMA, IA Anatolian autosomal profile had completely altered. All of Paleo-Balkanites (and almost all Europeans) had EEF ancestry, including Dalmatians. They don't have to cluster in any way with Ciftlig, but rather Balkan EEF's and they do have strong Dalmatian EEF element which is expected.

    Distance to: I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    11.20190609 Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp

    Distance to: MA2198_Anatolia_IA.SG_2900_ybp
    39.12042178 Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    242
    Points
    8,425
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,425, Level: 27
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Post Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

    I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.
    If you mix the Bronze Age Dalmatian with a Mycenaean, then you have something closer to Albanians and Greeks. The only difference is that Albanians and Greeks will have some Slavic admixture. Removing the Slavic admixture from Albanians does not pull them closer to the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Rather the opposite. Because the Albanians will be closer to Bronze Age Greeks rather than the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Hence I suspect that there were migrations in the Balkans during the Iron Age. And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East.

    l3vQ8Wu.jpg

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Check the J-L283 topic. I identified the culture where the found was made and also I was the one instrumental when looking about cultural relatives of that find, how did the hg expand etc. You on the other hand were saying how J-L283 is only found in Ghegs, and "not so Illyrian". Well obviously you are bit of jelly.




    Not as Southern as Iron Age Greeks, still heavy Slavic influence and Arvanite it seems as well.



    I see, looks very Greek, namely looks Mycenaean + something Northern Balkan which arrived in Dorian invasions. Which is when most of E-V13 arrived to the Greece. Unlike your idiotic claim that our hg is "through and through Southern Balkan" that is some Pelasgian slaves. No E-V13 is native to Greece or Southern Albania. They expanded to those areas.

    Progon being Progon, Anatolian Neolithic Ciftlig is an indication of LBA/IA ancestry/influence, Anatolian Ciftlig was an ancestor of EEF's!!! And by the EBA, BMA, IA Anatolian autosomal profile had completely altered. All of Paleo-Balkanites (and almost all Europeans) had EEF ancestry, including Dalmatians. They don't have to cluster in any way with Ciftlig, but rather Balkan EEF's and they do have strong Dalmatian EEF element which is expected.

    Distance to: I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_11.20190609 Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp


    Distance to: MA2198_Anatolia_IA.SG_2900_ybp
    39.12042178 Tep003_Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik.SG_8505_ybp
    You have some serious issues, Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik is an Anatolian Neolithic with Eastern affinities, like CHG/Levant. North Italians, Spaniards, Myceneans, Dalmatians lack it. Greeks, South Italians and Albanians to some degree have more of it. You shouldn't take them literally as you do because you are dull , it might be some Anatolian influence.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    If you mix the Bronze Age Dalmatian with a Mycenaean, then you have something closer to Albanians and Greeks. The only difference is that Albanians and Greeks will have some Slavic admixture. Removing the Slavic admixture from Albanians does not pull them closer to the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Rather the opposite. Because the Albanians will be closer to Bronze Age Greeks rather than the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Hence I suspect that there were migrations in the Balkans during the Iron Age. And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East.

    l3vQ8Wu.jpg
    Fair enough, it makes sense.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    You have some serious issues, Anatolia_N_Tepecik_Ciftlik is an Anatolian Neolithic with Eastern affinities, like CHG/Levant. North Italians, Spaniards, Myceneans, Dalmatians lack it. Greeks, South Italians and Albanians to some degree have more of it. You shouldn't take them literally as you do because you are dull , it might be some Anatolian influence.
    Dude, there was no Tepecik_Ciftlik ancestry in existence in the entire Anatolia in Iron Age. They were all looong diluted with CHG and other ancestries. How can ancestry which does not exist anymore arrive from Anatolia in Iron Age???? If it does then much more of CHG and the rest must have arrived too.

    Tepecik is completely irrelevant to any European LBA/IA population. It acquired some Eastern affinity after the separation with the proto-EEF's.

    It is though likely there was some Anatolian ancestry, but in the form of Imperial Roman legionaries, settlers etc. If Albanians, Greeks, South Italians have it it is due to Imperial Roman and Byzantine Anatolian influence.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    429
    Points
    4,516
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,516, Level: 19
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 134
    Overall activity: 20.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East.
    There was some Greek influence in the N.Balkans, but generally in LBA/EIA there was massive migration to the South coinciding with the Mycenaean fall. You forget that the Dalmatian Iron Age sample is even more Northern than the MBA samples. This is in line with proven Urnfield migrations from Central Europe in LBA/IE which caused the Mycenaean fall. I already proposed the main difference: Illyrians were Bell Beaker inspired, while the entire Thracian and Greek world was Yamnaya inspired regarding their IE element, with Srubnaya-like influence.

    The Bell Beaker - Yamnaya cline is the basis of difference between Illyrian and Thraco-Greek groups. The other one is Neolithic, but the differences between Neolithic elements were generally smaller than those between BB and Yamnaya.

    Mycenaeans were essentially Minoans with small Yamnaya influence.
    Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
    88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp



    Minoans were mostly Greek Neolithics with Kura Araxes influence which brought vast majority of Greek J2a. Unlike in autosomal DNA though, J2a overwhelmed the G2a.
    Target: I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    Distance: 2.1728% / 2.17275655
    83.8 I3708_Greece_Peloponnese_N_6550_ybp
    16.2 ARM003_Kaps_Kura_Araxes_5148_years_old_G2b_K3_


    IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
    Target: EmpI8215
    Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
    55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


    Target: EmpI8215
    Distance: 5.8597% / 5.85965700
    80.8 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    19.2 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

    It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    242
    Points
    8,425
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,425, Level: 27
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    .

    It is though likely there was some Anatolian ancestry, but in the form of Imperial Roman legionaries, settlers etc. If Albanians, Greeks, South Italians have it it is due to Imperial Roman and Byzantine Anatolian influence.
    It could also be that Sea peoples had Anatolian influence. And/or since Greeks settled vastly on both side of the Aegean there was circulation between of people in the Greek world (Western Anatolia and Greece) since the Iron Age into the Classical Age and Roman/Byzantine Age. Albanians seem to be connected closer to the Greeks rather than the BA Illyrians.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It could also be that Sea peoples had Anatolian influence.
    IMO, Sea People were a confederation among Myceneans, some other Southern European groups allied with Myceneans and West Anatolians. Trojan war might be the end-result of the Sea Peoples turning their swords against each other.

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,069
    Points
    395,783
    Level
    100
    Points: 395,783, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Aspurg,

    "SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
    Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
    13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
    14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
    15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
    16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
    28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

    Fwiw, SZ43 is my closest match on mytrueancestry:

    1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.604 - SZ43 -
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users


    Their estimate of the ancestry is:
    1. Tuscan (5.029)
    2. North_Italian (8.337)
    3. Albanian_Tosk (8.892)
    4. Kosovar (9.972)
    5. Italian_Abruzzo (10.12)
    6. West_Sicilian (10.53)
    7. Greek (11.71)
    8. Greek_Thessaly (12.65)


    This is how he's defined by Eurogenes K13.
    Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    2.62575703 Liguria
    3.03894719 Emilia
    4.22659437 Tuscany
    4.70964967 Lombardy
    5.97690555 Veneto
    6.10092616 Tuscan
    6.29661814 Piedmont
    6.76625450 Romagna
    7.13887946 Umbria
    7.59609110 FrenchCorsica
    8.13766551 Lazio
    8.31645357 Marche
    8.40452259 Friuli-VG
    9.23770534 Swiss-Italian
    9.48964699 Trentino
    9.74243296 Swiss_Italian
    11.88159922 Greek_Western-Thrace
    12.35136835 Spanish_Extremadura
    12.53068633 Portuguese
    12.56161614 Albanian_Kosovo
    12.60631191 Greek_Central-Macedonia
    12.81659861 Albanian_north_Albania
    12.89158253 Spanish_Andalucia
    13.06767003 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
    13.16254530 Kosovo_Albanian

    I have ancestry from Liguria, Emilia and Toscana

    Northern Italians and Tuscans are not all Illyrians or Pannonians. :)

    Szolad is in an area which was an island of Romanized people long after other areas were overrun, whose people kept their culture, their Romance language etc. I have no idea if they were "locals" or displaced people from other parts of Europe or even Italy itself. At one point the Byzantines retook it, which would explain some of the more Southern Italian/Greek and Greek Islander like people.

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keszthely_culture

    "The Romanic population from Pannonia created the Keszthely culture that evolved mainly during the 6th-7th centuries. Its artifacts were made in the workshops of Roman origin located mainly in the fortified settlements of Keszthely-Fenékpuszta and Sopianae (modern Pécs)."

    "By the end of the 6th century, the Romanized populace was mainly buried in the row cemeteries that were newly laid out in the area of the late Roman fortresses of Keszthely (Castellum) and Pécs (Sopianae) (southwestern Hungary). During the period of Avar rule, Romanized and Byzantine people arrived from the Balkans, and they helped develop a community of skilled artisans. These communities, probably Christian, preserved or renewed their artistic relations with the Romanized population of the Mediterranean."

    "The name Keszthely (IPA[ˈkɛst.hɛj]) could be related to the IstriotVenetiancastei, which means "castle", and is probably an original word of the Pannonian Romance language, according to the Austrian linguist Julius Pokorny.[2"
    S1. Central Roman (590 AD) ..... 3.604 - SZ43 -
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users

  18. #18
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registeredThree Friends5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    521
    Points
    5,374
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,374, Level: 21
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 176
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian

    I dont think it has anything with Slavic admixture, i believe Albanians are far from Bronze Age Dalmatian because he was still not real Illyrian. He was more of a proto-IE. Therefore that is why he is so much northeast shifted. Towards Ukraine, etc.. These Bronze Age proto-IEs later mixed with natives, and especially around Mediterranean Sea where then later Illyrian cluster was made.

    Illyrians should be mix of what you call Pelasgians (older populations) and Bronze Age arriving Indo-Europeans. The earliest records of Illyrian tribes go around eight century BCE, therefore i believe Illyrians from around 800 BCE to 400 BCE will be probably much different from Dalmatian Bronze Age sample and much more close to Romans for example, therefore also more close to Albanians.


    My closest ancient population are Romans at GD 8, and if we would have Illyrians aDNA from same period they would be probably very close to Albanians also.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    242
    Points
    8,425
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,425, Level: 27
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    There was some Greek influence in the N.Balkans, but generally in LBA/EIA there was massive migration to the South coinciding with the Mycenaean fall. You forget that the Dalmatian Iron Age sample is even more Northern than the MBA samples. This is in line with proven Urnfield migrations from Central Europe in LBA/IE which caused the Mycenaean fall. I already proposed the main difference: Illyrians were Bell Beaker inspired, while the entire Thracian and Greek world was Yamnaya inspired regarding their IE element, with Srubnaya-like influence.

    The Bell Beaker - Yamnaya cline is the basis of difference between Illyrian and Thraco-Greek groups. The other one is Neolithic, but the differences between Neolithic elements were generally smaller than those between BB and Yamnaya.

    Mycenaeans were essentially Minoans with small Yamnaya influence.
    Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
    Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
    88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp



    Minoans were mostly Greek Neolithics with Kura Araxes influence which brought vast majority of Greek J2a. Unlike in autosomal DNA though, J2a overwhelmed the G2a.
    Target: I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
    Distance: 2.1728% / 2.17275655
    83.8 I3708_Greece_Peloponnese_N_6550_ybp
    16.2 ARM003_Kaps_Kura_Araxes_5148_years_old_G2b_K3_


    IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
    Target: EmpI8215
    Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
    55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


    Target: EmpI8215
    Distance: 5.8597% / 5.85965700
    80.8 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    19.2 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

    It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.
    Interesting, this gives some evidence that post-Bronze Age Greeks were more paleo-Balkan admixed.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    242
    Points
    8,425
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,425, Level: 27
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 325
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post

    Illyrians should be mix of what you call Pelasgians (older populations) and Bronze Age arriving Indo-Europeans. The earliest records of Illyrian tribes go around eight century BCE, therefore i believe Illyrians from around 800 BCE to 400 BCE will be probably much different from Dalmatian Bronze Age sample and much more close to Romans for example, therefore also more close to Albanians.
    This could be true for the South Illyrians. But in order to hypothesize that Illyrians in Dalmatia later mixed with Pelasgians, we would first have to prove that Pelasgians were inhabiting that area.

    It is more likely that Pelasgian peoples were inhabiting the SouthBalkans. Most of them were Hellenized by proto-Hellenes and Dorians, while
    others were influenced linguistically by the Illyrians. These resulted to the ancestors of the Albanians. The North Illyrians who were different biologically from Albanians/Greeks/Thracians were eventually Sclavinized. Also, the Romans massacred many of them.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    473
    Points
    4,075
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,075, Level: 18
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Dalmatians being essentially like north Italians was my prediction and I was right. Same for Scythians.

    My inaccurate predictions:
    Iron age Hellenes were somewhat different from Myceneans genetically.
    Native Sicilians were very similar to ancient Greeks.

    Some other predicitions:
    Dacians will cluster with mainland Greeks and Albanians.
    Central Illyrians will be like somewhat like Tuscans but more southwestern.

  22. #22
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registeredThree Friends5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    521
    Points
    5,374
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,374, Level: 21
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 176
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    This could be true for the South Illyrians. But in order to hypothesize that Illyrians in Dalmatia later mixed with Pelasgians, we would first have to prove that Pelasgians were inhabiting that area.

    It is more likely that Pelasgian peoples were inhabiting the SouthBalkans. Most of them were Hellenized by proto-Hellenes and Dorians, while
    others were influenced linguistically by the Illyrians. These resulted to the ancestors of the Albanians. The North Illyrians who were different biologically from Albanians/Greeks/Thracians were eventually Sclavinized. Also, the Romans massacred many of them.

    Yeah i agree with everything you said just i used term Pelasgian as label to older pre-IE population. Not necessarily pelasgians from Greece and Albania who are real Pelasgians actually.
    Pelasgian is just term Greeks used to describe natives and pre-Greek populations. I used same term for pre-Illyrian populations.

    In Albanian wikipedia, even Phoenicians are described as one of Pelasgian population, https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenikasit

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    ihype02's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    473
    Points
    4,075
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,075, Level: 18
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 175
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
    Target: EmpI8215
    Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
    55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
    44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


    It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.
    Kid, Thracians are only two hairs away from the Myceanean cluster in a figurative sense, you can model a modern Thessalian as a 60% Thessalian and 40% Gheg Albanian (Gheg Albanians are a little bit more northwestern shifted) but the model will still be Thessalian like. It would only make a difference if that 40% was Dalmatian like, which is not.

    The Dorians were most likely nearly identical with Myceanaeans by the time they reached Peloponnese at least their contribution most likely did make a small difference which are similar as micro-regional differences (eg. east - west Sicilian), but the the cluster as whole is the same.

    This model just shows that an over 40% population replacement might have happend and still no significant difference in the genetics, which can lead to other topics.
    Last edited by ihype02; 08-06-20 at 23:03.

  24. #24
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registeredThree Friends5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    521
    Points
    5,374
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,374, Level: 21
    Level completed: 65%, Points required for next Level: 176
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

    That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

    Roman (7.945)
    Gaul + Roman (8.253)
    Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
    Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
    Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
    Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
    Gallo-Roman (12.57)
    Gaul (15.27)
    Illyrian (16.14)
    Roman Hispania (16.74)

    I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me.

    "Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    209
    Points
    1,646
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,646, Level: 11
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

    That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

    Roman (7.945)
    Gaul + Roman (8.253)
    Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
    Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
    Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
    Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
    Gallo-Roman (12.57)
    Gaul (15.27)
    Illyrian (16.14)
    Roman Hispania (16.74)

    I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me.

    "Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.
    The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians. Here are the results of a G25 calculator, which is used a lot.

    Target: Progon_scaled
    Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
    49.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    38.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    11.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    1.0 WH


    Target: HRV_EBA
    Distance: 2.8970% / 0.02897046
    50.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    31.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    9.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    4.4 WHG
    3.6 GEO_CHG
    0.8 MAR_EN

    Target: HRV_IA
    Distance: 3.8417% / 0.03841726
    61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.0 WHG


    Target: HRV_MBA
    Distance: 2.4450% / 0.02444964
    60.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    33.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.4 WHG

    Greek colonizer from Anatolian coasts

    Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494530
    40.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    39.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    13.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.6 GEO_CHG
    0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean
    Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775159
    64.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    12.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    11.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    6.4 GEO_CHG
    5.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.4 MAR_EN
    0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156
    36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    35.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    25.4 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    2.2 WHG
    0.6 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

    Target: Greek_Thessaly
    Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019890
    37.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    35.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    26.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    1.6 WHG

    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.7650% / 0.01764966
    36.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    30.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    26.8 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    4.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.4 Levant_PPNB
    0.4 WHG
    0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

    Target: Greek_Izmir
    Distance: 1.5042% / 0.01504228
    36.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    29.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    25.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    3.6 Levant_PPNB
    0.2 GEO_CHG

    Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
    Distance: 2.3886% / 0.02388601
    36.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    32.0 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    28.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    2.4 WHG
    1.0 Levant_PPNB

    Target: Bulgarian
    Distance: 3.0771% / 0.03077084
    39.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    31.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    22.6 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    5.8 WHG
    0.6 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •