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Thread: Far Left-Wing Americans want to dismantle statues

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    Far Left-Wing Americans want to dismantle statues



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Ok, thanks, never thought of using iphone from screen. As for the 900 Black See Sample, for some reason just I just seemed to notice it this time. Looks like the sample is plotting in Genoa, Liguria area on your PCA Plot.
    Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

    ( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)
    But you oh Messapo, Tamer of Horses ... that no one, with neither iron nor fire can break down! “Virgil”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

    ( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)
    Yes some crazy times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Same place as Christopher Columbus ... ,

    ( ... we will privately refinance the statues that they're destroying, we will make them BIGGER!)
    It is well established that a band of Vikings under Leif Eriksson were the first Europeans to have discovered America around 1000AD. Maybe replace them with Leif Erisksson statues? Or statues of St Brendan the Irish monk that supposedly did that around 570AD?

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    The first peoples to explore and colonize America were Eurasians that lived in a glacial refuge in Beringia 20,000 ybp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    The first peoples to explore and colonize America were Eurasians that lived in a glacial refuge in Beringia 20,000 ybp
    Very true. You don't see any statues of them around, do you? But we do celebrate the guy that immediately upon arriving plundered the gold from the natives and enslaved 6 of them for himself.

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    we’re going off topic, and you’re all missing the point,

    ... it’s about what some Historical Characters mean to the protestors, they couldn’t care less whoever came first to America, or whatever Columbus means to Italian Americans ... I’ll leave it at that ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    we’re going off topic, and you’re all missing the point,

    ... it’s about what some Historical Characters mean to the protestors, they couldn’t care less whoever came first to America, or whatever Columbus means to Italian Americans ... I’ll leave it at that ...
    You are dead on, spot on, 100% dead on, 100% spot on / correct. Columbus will not be the last Statue that is demanded to come down, it will get to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson soon enough. Maybe the Columbus statue should come down, not American, but it aint gonna end with his statue. But this is a topic more for the political thread so I too will leave it at that.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I have moved these posts to a dedicated thread.
    There can be no covenants between men and lions

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    I don't know any statue built to honor the indigenous people in the region of Brazil where I live (southeast). But there are many statues around here like this that pay homage to São Paulo explorers from the 16th and 17th centuries and who are currently under threat of being put down by demonstrators. The honoree below is Borba Gato, founder of the City of Sabará, who has nearly four hundred years , whose ancient district of Curral Del Rey would later become my hometown, Belo Horizonte. Considering that I have not yet seen anyone here in eupédia able to have a higher rate of homozygosity than mine, I believe that this man is probably a relative. I believe that the statues need not be put down. It is as ominous an attitude as burning books, as authoritarian regimes usually do. It is enough that the bronze plaques that describe the heroic deeds of the honorees also describe the bad side of the story that is usually omitted. The story needs to be corrected and not erased.

    Last edited by Duarte; 13-06-20 at 02:49.

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    I wonder how much of this unrest is actually being sowed by foreign-rivals that want to promote sedition:

    Twitter deletes 170,000 accounts linked to China influence campaign

    Twitter has removed more than 170,000 accounts the social media site says are state-linked influence campaigns from China focusing on Hong Kong protests, Covid-19 and the US protests in relation to George Floyd.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/twitter-deletes-170000-accounts-linked-to-china-influence-campaign/ar-BB15mYka

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    It is well established that a band of Vikings under Leif Eriksson were the first Europeans to have discovered America around 1000AD. Maybe replace them with Leif Erisksson statues? Or statues of St Brendan the Irish monk that supposedly did that around 570AD?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Vikings who landed in North America exterminated by the Native Americans, because they were hostile towards one another?

    Sorry Bigsnake, but that isn't going to fly either, extremists hate Leif Eriksson too:

    https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/ne...tue-vandalized

    https://www.fox21online.com/2017/09/...nt-vandalized/

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    they want to rewrite the history, which is biassed, indeed
    that is ok by me, as long it is not biassed in the other way
    it is true that the colonisers did bring a lot of misery
    but they shouldn't forget to tell about the horror local tribes inflicted to each other, about human sacrifices for the elites and about the whole situation before the colonisers came
    I'm sure it won't be a nice story, allthough there is a lot we will never know
    if the colonisers hadn't come, the situation would be a lot worse today
    and if there was not the same corruption and exploitation by local rulers after decolonisation, living standarts in the decolonised countries would be a lot higher than they are today

    you can't judge history by todays standards
    the only way to understand history is to understand first what were the standards and morals of that time

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    ^Hernando Cortez defeated the Aztecs with the help of various Central American tribes, that the Aztecs were oppressing.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The point is that the Vikings and whoever else might have landed here before Columbus had no effect on subsequent history. That voyage for the Spanish monarchs changed the history of the world. Period.

    You can't, as someone else said, change history, or the record of human history. It's a terrible, horrible, very bad idea. If you want to explain the bad consequences as well as the good ones, fine, but tearing down statues of the past is like banning books.

    Also, tell the WHOLE story: Rousseau's "Noble Savage" is a fantasy. The Aztecs were as brutal, bloody and oppressive as any European power, and more so than many. The Incas were no picnic either, or the Mayans.

    Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner who impregnated his mulatto or quadroon slave, Sally Hemings, numerous times, freed her only upon his death, leaving her cousins and aunts and uncles slaves, and only freed two of his children by her on his death as well. The others all ran away. I've never thought of him the same way since I learned those things. Does that change all his wonderful accomplishments? No, it doesn't.

    Robert E. Lee, by the way, did not believe in slavery and had already or planned to free all his slaves. He was loyal to his state. As I always say, the real world was and is a lot more complicated than ideologues paint it, but you only know that if you've learned the actual facts.

    I'm tired of people re-writing history. We should be in the business of seeking out the truth.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Vikings who landed in North America exterminated by the Native Americans, because they were hostile towards one another?

    Sorry Bigsnake, but that isn't going to fly either, extremists hate Leif Eriksson too:

    https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/ne...tue-vandalized

    https://www.fox21online.com/2017/09/...nt-vandalized/
    Probably why they left with their tail between their legs. Not worth it I guess.

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    I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.
    The history of all the Countries of the World has a grey color.

    Whomever has the Power has always asserted onto others.

    We celebrate the positive aspects of our chosen Historical Figures or events, knowing that most of them were not Saints.

    If they don’t like what I celebrate, ... then they shouldn’t celebrate, or they could celebrate something else, but they should leave me and my Icons alone.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^Hernando Cortez defeated the Aztecs with the help of various Central American tribes, that the Aztecs were oppressing.
    Hernán Cortés

    I have that last name too, don't change it. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I just want you to know that all these empires built after the discovery of America and the lands of the Pacific were done for one thing and one thing only, exploitation. Exploitation of resources or exploitation of people (enslavement). So excuse me if I do think that slaughtering the natives, enslaving them and stealing their land and resources should not be a cause for celebrating somebody. Trade with them, sure.
    Like Salento said, anyone that has power, will use force to retain it. It has been this way, across all cultures, and races. The Left want to frame it so only white Americans are the only ones that have committed these atrocities.

    But clearly across the world, who ever has power also becomes a target from the people that they rule over, example:

    Three Chinese nationals were murdered and burned in Zambia, in a week when racial tensions were running high

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/china/china-zambia-murder-intl-hnk/index.html

    The Chinese have never enslaved Africans, but that doesn't stop racially motivated murders against them.

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    This is what I find so objectionable about these kinds of discussions, and just supports my long held opinion that it is almost impossible to have rational discussions about certain issues.

    To refuse to become an iconoclast destroying the symbols of the past, or a revisionist re-writing it, or to engage in endless self-flagellation for the sins of white people/Europeans etc., means you're going to wind up being accused of supporting what happened to the native peoples of the Americas.

    It's both illogical and unfair.

    I would hope it's clear from my years posting here that I think what happened to indigenous peoples all over the world, not just in the Americas, but in Greenland, and Russia, and southeast Asia, and Africa, and on and on is horrible and inexcusable. I just think it needs to be seen in all its complexity, and in its universality, as has been said.

    Even removing any intent to actually conquer them, what happened to the indigenous peoples of the Americas was in some ways inevitable. The first English colonists in Virginia and Massachusetts had no initial intent to "conquer" the Indians, or even worse, exterminate the Indians and annex all their lands. They had no vision of the hundreds of thousands of colonists who would soon start flooding the "New World". They perhaps naively hoped to find some sort of way of living with the natives. That didn't stop the natives from dropping like flies of all the illnesses to which Europeans had become immune. Nor did it change human nature; landless people from Europe saw what was to them unused, valuable farmland, and moved on to it, and Indians saw their hunting lands disappearing. Conflict was inevitable. Things were different in "Latin America", because the Indian societies were more advanced, and far richer.

    I don't see how this wasn't, in some ways, just like what happened to the Middle Neolithic people of Europe when contact first occurred with the people from the steppe. Even if the goal wasn't conquest, disease would have done the job, and the fact that the climate had changed and their "agricultural package" was no longer viable. It's the history of the world terrible as it is.

    At any rate, as I said, by no means do I condone what was happened to them; in fact, it breaks my heart. There are few films more profoundly moving than "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee", or "The Mission". Yet, "Black Robe" is the reality of Amerindian societies at the time of contact. Some films are actually well researched and accurate, though certainly not all.

    I also honestly don't see how indigenous societies can continue to exist once they come into contact with people from modern cultures. Look at the San, or the people in the islands of south and southeastern Asia, or the Indians of the Amazon. Trading with them is impossible; we will infect them. The only way to save the Indians of the Amazon is to make whole areas of it in effect reservations. First and foremost it's to protect them, to keep them from becoming infected. It's also to protect their lands from the land hungry poor of Brazil and surrounding countries who want to feed their children, whether by subsistence farming or working for logging companies etc. Those are the people who are not "seen" in these discussions about how corporations create all the evil in the world.

    If someone were to ask me if I see a solution for all of this, the answer would be no; it's tragic and depressing, but there it is.

    As for this growing division in the U.S. I would say this: I'm a liberal too, in the sense that I'm a classical liberal; I'm a firm believer in the republican form of democracy which is the bedrock of this country. I am for equal rights before the law for all people, regardless of religion, or race, or ethnicity. What I am not for is a guarantee of equal outcomes. What I am also not for is the Maoist inspired, profoundly anti-Democratic, anti-due process, violence based, "woke", "successor" revolutionary ethos which started sweeping college campuses years ago and has now burst out, as I always predicted it would if funding for universities which tolerated it wasn't pulled and if private donors didn't close their wallets.

    For Americans who think they can co-exist with it, I think they're being incredibly naive. Eventually they'll have to be re-educated too. I recommend they all pick up a good history of the Chinese Cultural Revolution or the Leninist period in Russia and the show trials of the 30s which followed it. History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

    Why am I so sure it's coming? I was watching Anderson Cooper the other night. I have always thought he's a well meaning, reasonably balanced newscaster. He was interviewing a black activist of the disband the police type when, to me, an extraordinary thing happened. He asked her whether instead of disbanding the police, policing the police, more prosecutions of bad behavior wouldn't suffice. Without batting an eye she said that see, there's a problem because the police have all these due process rights! He said not a word in response. Apparently, investigations of the accused, trials, due process rights for defendants, things for which the left has vociferously fought for decades, are now to be tossed out, and mob rule and vigilante justice is to be instituted. When that can be said, unchallenged, on an American news program, it's time to prepare for the worst.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think the genocide of the Indians was a terrible thing, just like any other genocide, enslavement, or destruction of human life. However, I don't think people should dismantle statues or images of other conquers throughout the world. Like Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Saladin, etc.

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    If you want to acknowledge a European for the feat of discovering the continental US, acknowledge Ponce de Leon. He landed in Florida in 1513 and explored up and down Florida.

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    Throughout history, all civilizations have committed crimes. We must learn from that so that the crimes do not happen again in the future ... although I am skeptical, since long after Auschwitz there were genocides like the one in Rwanda, and in the former Yugoslavia.
    We should try to solve injustices ... but without perpetuating hatred. As a small example of those hatreds from the past, I tell you something that happened to me.
    A while ago I entered a community of descendants of Uruguayan indigenous people on Facebook. In my opening message, I wrote that I was very proud to have confirmed my suspicions of having native ancestors through a DNA test, because that gave me strong roots in this continent, but I also wrote that I was proud of my European ancestors....

    The group administrator replied: What ???? ... Are you proud of those who massacred our people and stole their land?
    And I replied: Hey, wait a minute! I am not talking about the conquerors, of which I do not even know if I am a descendant and probably never will!
    I refer to the millions of immigrants who came to work, like my Italian grandfather, who in his life knew nothing but hard work and left his bones on this land!
    The answer was silence...

  24. #24
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by italouruguayan View Post
    Throughout history, all civilizations have committed crimes. We must learn from that so that the crimes do not happen again in the future ... although I am skeptical, since long after Auschwitz there were genocides like the one in Rwanda, and in the former Yugoslavia.
    We should try to solve injustices ... but without perpetuating hatred. As a small example of those hatreds from the past, I tell you something that happened to me.
    A while ago I entered a community of descendants of Uruguayan indigenous people on Facebook. In my opening message, I wrote that I was very proud to have confirmed my suspicions of having native ancestors through a DNA test, because that gave me strong roots in this continent, but I also wrote that I was proud of my European ancestors....
    The group administrator replied: What ???? ... Are you proud of those who massacred our people and stole their land?
    And I replied: Hey, wait a minute! I am not talking about the conquerors, of which I do not even know if I am a descendant and probably never will!
    I refer to the millions of immigrants who came to work, like my Italian grandfather, who in his life knew nothing but hard work and left his bones on this land!
    The answer was silence...
    Thank you so much for your post, Italo. I am both moved and disheartened by it.

    No good can come from this kind of attitude, but this is the reality we face.

  25. #25
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    @Angela


    Let's hope that these disturbances, as well as the Covid-19, are in the future only bad memories of a 2020 whose script seems written by Stephen King ...

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