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Thread: Incest in dynastic elite in Megalithic Newgrange

  1. #51
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    @rachet fan
    the fact there is no AASI trace todate in Euope is not the proof of no AASI in far past at a very low level; and Y-H2 (H) ancestors could very well be come from India, and their AASI drowned later. AASI is kind of specialisation of more ancient more widespread element of ancestry. Plus bicicleur doesn't speak of AASI autosomes but of bows and arrows: It doesn't require too much DNA exchanges by force...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @rachet fan
    the fact there is no AASI trace todate in Euope is not the proof of no AASI in far past at a very low level; and Y-H2 (H) ancestors could very well be come from India, and their AASI drowned later. AASI is kind of specialisation of more ancient more widespread element of ancestry. Plus bicicleur doesn't speak of AASI autosomes but of bows and arrows: It doesn't require too much DNA exchanges by force...
    Maybe but I have my doubts on H2 coming from India.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    My opinion is that R1b-V88 people originated in the Levant and propagated the Neolithic herder lifestyle throughout Africa from there. They would have crossed from North Africa to Iberia and Sardinia.
    Wasn't V88 found in Mesolithic Serbia (Iron Gates) and Ukraine even before the EEF expansion to those areas? I don't see any scenario in which a WHG and EHG European subclade of R1b could've been in the Levant so early that it would've participated in the early expansion of pastoral activities in North Africa.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Not yet, but R1b-V88 is present in the Levant and Egypt today and African herders that carry R1b-V88 today like the Hausa and the Fulani have no European autosomal DNA but do have Middle Eastern one.
    I don't know about the Hausa, but the Fulani have a quite significant proportion of ANF admixture, so V88 could've arrived already very diluted in an overwhelmingly ANF-like population like many EEF groups.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    That could happen as a result of hunter-gatherers killing farmer males and taking their women, or it could happen through a more peaceful process, maybe an exchange of women. In either case the DNA evidence indicates that the megalithic culture was dominated by hunter-gatherer male lineages and that near-eastern male lineages were excluded, with the exception of some H2 males.
    Or what I find much more likely considering that hunter-gatherers very seldom win over more numerous and more technologically advanced farmers: the early farmers assimilated a few male hunter-gatherers and a larger number of female hunter-gatherers, in some region assimilation was much more significant than in others (particularly in border zones between prime area for agriculture and area better for fishing and hunting than for agriculture), some generations later some particular clans that descended from those assimilated hunter-gatherers, but already living fully as farmers with fishing as an additional but still very relevant activity, had developed a mixed economy of farming, herding and fishing, and started their expansion over other farming communities. I find it very unlikely that a bunch of hunter-gatherers dominated all farmers in a large area and took their women. There was probably a transition first, in which hunter-gatherers ceased to be full-time hunter-gatherers and became genetically and culturally more and more similar to the increasingly numerous farmers around them.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Or what I find much more likely considering that hunter-gatherers very seldom win over more numerous and more technologically advanced farmers: the early farmers assimilated a few male hunter-gatherers and a larger number of female hunter-gatherers, in some region assimilation was much more significant than in others (particularly in border zones between prime area for agriculture and area better for fishing and hunting than for agriculture), some generations later some particular clans that descended from those assimilated hunter-gatherers, but already living fully as farmers with fishing as an additional but still very relevant activity, had developed a mixed economy of farming, herding and fishing, and started their expansion over other farming communities. I find it very unlikely that a bunch of hunter-gatherers dominated all farmers in a large area and took their women. There was probably a transition first, in which hunter-gatherers ceased to be full-time hunter-gatherers and became genetically and culturally more and more similar to the increasingly numerous farmers around them.
    Farmers in PPNB became more and more dependant on farming, forgetting their hunting and fishing skills.
    That was a considerable disadvantage in times of climate change.
    I guess European HG who made contact with farmers were more interested in herding combined with hunting than in farming.
    We see it in 7,3 ka Els Trocs and Chaves, we see it in the 7,5 ka coastal area of Alpes-Maritimes, France.
    In both cases , there is I2a1b, the main haplogroup in later megalithic societies.
    Maybe the farmers daughters found that herding-hunting lifestyle more attractive than farming.

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    Sounds good to me; gets them out from under your feet.

    Just come back occasionally to bring home the meat and milk, do some chores and other services, and then off you go again. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I don't know about the Hausa, but the Fulani have a quite significant proportion of ANF admixture, so V88 could've arrived already very diluted in an overwhelmingly ANF-like population like many EEF groups.
    Is it not possible to test Fulani DNA on this? If it is EEF or ANF? Or if it is at least part EEF? That would answer this question definitively. Or do I think too simplistic here?

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