Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 53

Thread: Are R1b and R1a ultimately East Asian lineages?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Are R1b and R1a ultimately East Asian lineages?

    Is this looking more and more likely? Do we know if the original ANE lineage was actually something like C before a y K2b/P/R ENA group dominated such a group?

    I hope nobody takes this the wrong way. But the infighting among R1b and R1a guys always seemed silly especially on certain other forums. Whose more PIE? Who dominated the other? All of that seems silly if the SE Asian origin of K2b/P are true or if Tianyuan is ancestral to Yana to me. I also personally know a few anthrousers who were disgusted by the thought of R1b coming from the Middle East (which we know isn't true) and would rather have their lineage be non West Eurasian and related to Papuans. I'm guessing its the culture of the modern Middle East that nobody wants to be associated with which sadly makes sense.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    144
    Points
    2,868
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,868, Level: 15
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 182
    Overall activity: 21.0%


    Country: Turkey



    In my opinion, original language of R1b is Proto-IE, original language of R1a is Para-Proto-IE.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    So if ANE didn't have paternal ENA would we still have IE languages or would we be speaking something different?

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,634
    Points
    46,809
    Level
    66
    Points: 46,809, Level: 66
    Level completed: 90%, Points required for next Level: 141
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    ANE is NOT East-Asian!
    I have no cristal bowl nor hen guts, but I think we could say Y-R1 has been almost exclusively ANE at some stage - I wonder if Y-R passed to North through Steppes from North of South Asia (look at localisation of Y-R2), its farther ancestors come from South-East Asia ( still Y-P ?).

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ANE is NOT East-Asian!
    I have no cristal bowl nor hen guts, but I think we could say Y-R1 has been almost exclusively ANE at some stage - I wonder if Y-R passed to North through Steppes from North of South Asia (look at localisation of Y-R2), its farther ancestors come from South-East Asia ( still Y-P ?).
    Would K2b and P be East Asian though? I feel like some East Asians (similar to Near Easterners and Mycenaeans) are trying to claim European accomplishments, culture and civilization by exaggerating the importance of K2b/P. That's why I hope they are wrong although that doesn't look likely.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Is it possible K2b/P originated in a undifferentiated Eurasian population?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-03-18
    Location
    Wellington
    Age
    65
    Posts
    75
    Points
    4,512
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,512, Level: 19
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c3b2

    Ethnic group
    Maori Irish French Scottish English
    Country: New Zealand



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    ANE is NOT East-Asian!
    What does that mean? ANE developed around Lake Baikal and after thousands of years ANE expanded from Baikalia both east and west. Lake Baikal is on a similar line of longitude as Vietnam, so if Lake Baikal is not East Asia then neither is Vietnam. Surely a culture that develops in East Asia and remains in East Asia for at least the next five thousand years is by definition an East Asian population and culture.

    If you mean that only about one third of the earlier ancestors of ANE were of East Asian origin whilst about two thirds were of West Eurasian origin, that may be true. However, by that reasoning, the current populations of Western Europe are not actually West European because the majority of their ancestry originates in West Asia, the Pontic Steppes, the Caucasus and Siberia.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    118
    Points
    3,368
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,368, Level: 16
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 82
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Tamakore View Post
    Surely a culture that develops in East Asia and remains in East Asia for at least the next five thousand years is by definition an East Asian population and culture.
    Geographically, but not necessarily in terms of their genetic affinity, which is what geneticists mean when they talk about something being west or east eurasian.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    583
    Points
    9,237
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,237, Level: 28
    Level completed: 82%, Points required for next Level: 113
    Overall activity: 99.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-CTS1096 aka e-m84
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from europe

    Country: Uruguay



    More central asian than east asian 🤔
    known ancestery:
    sefhardi / aschenazi/ mizrahi / bulgarian

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    436
    Points
    4,539
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,539, Level: 19
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Is this looking more and more likely? Do we know if the original ANE lineage was actually something like C before a y K2b/P/R ENA group dominated such a group?

    I hope nobody takes this the wrong way. But the infighting among R1b and R1a guys always seemed silly especially on certain other forums. Whose more PIE? Who dominated the other? All of that seems silly if the SE Asian origin of K2b/P are true or if Tianyuan is ancestral to Yana to me. I also personally know a few anthrousers who were disgusted by the thought of R1b coming from the Middle East (which we know isn't true) and would rather have their lineage be non West Eurasian and related to Papuans. I'm guessing its the culture of the modern Middle East that nobody wants to be associated with which sadly makes sense.
    Indeed R and P are of fully Asian and "non-Caucasoid" origin. Native Americans are also EE in origin, and they are just a sub-group under hg Q. Other Q clades are pro-genitors of Turkic language group. R2 clearly migrated to South Asia.

    It a genetic paradox that progenitors of Indo-European language group and Semitic/Afroasiatic language groups, who are historically Western Eurasians, have in fact ultimately East Asian/South East Asian (R) and "Subsaharan" (in a sense of not being Eurasian, ofc not being modern Bantu SSA) African non-Eurasian (E-M35) origin.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 22-06-20 at 22:46.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Geographically, but not necessarily in terms of their genetic affinity, which is what geneticists mean when they talk about something being west or east eurasian.
    The further back you guy the more East Eurasian these guys are. Tianyuan is K2b and 100% East Eurasian, Yana is P and 28% East Eurasian and Malta is R and about 9% East Eurasian.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Indeed R and P are of fully Asian and "non-Caucasoid" origin. Native Americans are also EE in origin, and they are just a sub-group under hg Q. Other Q clades are pro-genitors of Turkic language group. R2 clearly migrated to South Asia.

    It a genetic paradox that progenitors of Indo-European language group and Semitic/Afroasiatic language groups, who are historically Western Eurasians, have in fact ultimately East Asian/South East Asian (R) and Subsaharan African non-Eurasian (E-M35) origin.
    Yea its looking that way. Racial cucking was high back then I guess. Unfortunate but it is what it is. East Asians and Africans are at least paternally pure. Guess the attack on white males we see today has historical precedent.

    Kartvelian and Dravidian are probably the most populous and pure West Eurasian language groups (if those are indeed connected to G and H). Who would have thought? There's South Indian tribals with high frequencies of H who are more paternally West Eurasian than all Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    118
    Points
    3,368
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,368, Level: 16
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 82
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    How many generations is 42,000 years?

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    How many generations is 42,000 years?
    ~1400. I know its way far back and the autosomal ancestry has been diluted by now but its still depressing to think about. Africans are African on the paternal line, East Asians are East Asian on the paternal line while West Eurasians are mostly East Asian and African on the paternal lines with the languages and cultures of actual West Eurasian males killed off. No amount of generations will change that.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    118
    Points
    3,368
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,368, Level: 16
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 82
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    West Eurasians are mostly East Asian and African on the paternal lines
    You mean if you follow your paternal lineage back 42,000 years or so you would eventually get to an East Asian or African man. But obviously he would only be one of your billions (?) of male ancestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    with the languages and cultures of actual West Eurasian males killed off.
    That's a non-sequitur.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    You mean if you follow your paternal lineage back 42,000 years or so you would eventually get to an East Asian or African man. But obviously he would only be one of your billions (?) of male ancestors.



    That's a non-sequitur.
    True but a large majority of those would descend from that one guy who likely killed the West Eurasian y C guys in the case of K2b/P/R. Africans and East Asians can trace their direct male ancestors to someone of their own race without any West Eurasian input (except Somalis I guess). Either way its kind of depressing. Had that not happened we likely wouldn't be speaking Indo-European languages so the legacy lives on in multiple ways.

    I'm not sure about how the second statement doesn't make sense.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    14-06-17
    Posts
    118
    Points
    3,368
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,368, Level: 16
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 82
    Overall activity: 47.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    At this point I'm sure you're trolling.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    436
    Points
    4,539
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,539, Level: 19
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Yea its looking that way. Racial cucking was high back then I guess. Unfortunate but it is what it is. East Asians and Africans are at least paternally pure. Guess the attack on white males we see today has historical precedent.

    Kartvelian and Dravidian are probably the most populous and pure West Eurasian language groups (if those are indeed connected to G and H). Who would have thought? There's South Indian tribals with high frequencies of H who are more paternally West Eurasian than all Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans.
    Well today exist races as we know them, what makes you think such marked differences existed 30 k, 40 k years ago? Because they didn't. Plus some external appearance traits that are closely associated with races are much younger (skin color etc.).

    For example we have Mota E1b1a2, and Bantu dominated E1b1a1 which separated 39200 years ago, Mota had an African autosomal profile but still very different and distant from E1b1a1 dominated Bantus/West-Africans.

    These paradoxes prove futility of identifying in some strong way with ancestors through Y-DNA because of completely different evolutionary paths lineages can take in 40 k years.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    436
    Points
    4,539
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,539, Level: 19
    Level completed: 73%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 42.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Kartvelian and Dravidian are probably the most populous and pure West Eurasian language groups (if those are indeed connected to G and H). Who would have thought? There's South Indian tribals with high frequencies of H who are more paternally West Eurasian than all Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans.
    Not only Kartvelians (G2a1) but also Circassians/NW Caucasian languages (G2a2b2a), the latter are more related to EEF's (just 10600 years). Also Northeast Caucasian languages are likely J-Z1828 originally, distant relatives of J-P58 which spread Semitic languages.

    Dravidians are not native to South India, Dravidians descend from the North, around modern Balochistan, where Dravidian Northern remnant - Brahui is found. H hg is associated with Indian HG's, they aren't original Dravidians. Dravidians predate IE's by a couple of thousands of years, but are incomers too.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well today exist races as we know them, what makes you think such marked differences existed 30 k, 40 k years ago? Because they didn't. Plus some external appearance traits that are closely associated with races are much younger (skin color etc.).

    For example we have Mota E1b1a2, and Bantu dominated E1b1a1 which separated 39200 years ago, Mota had an African autosomal profile but still very different and distant from E1b1a1 dominated Bantus/West-Africans.

    These paradoxes prove futility of identifying in some strong way with ancestors through Y-DNA because of completely different evolutionary paths lineages can take in 40 k years.
    I guess. But there was obviously some difference because we could separate ENA from West Eurasian back then and Eurasians from Africans even back then. I'm not sure about phenotype but I would imagine there were differences although not as much as they are today. Either way though Africans and Asians were able to avoid West Eurasian introgression into their paternal gene pool but West Eurasians were not able to do the same to them which is somewhat depressing to me. Actually very depressing.

  21. #21
    Banned Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-06-20
    Posts
    35
    Points
    173
    Level
    2
    Points: 173, Level: 2
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 77
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.

    what insane garbage !

    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Yea its looking that way. Racial cucking was high back then I guess. Unfortunate but it is what it is. East Asians and Africans are at least paternally pure.
    Insane garbage !!

    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Kartvelian and Dravidian are probably the most populous and pure West Eurasian language groups (if those are indeed connected to G and H). Who would have thought? There's South Indian tribals with high frequencies of H who are more paternally West Eurasian than all Europeans, Middle Easterners and North Africans.
    Dravidian is the purest group of South Asian population.
    If South Indian Tribals have high frequencies of H, then it proves H has nothing to do with Europeans.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points31 days registered

    Join Date
    15-06-20
    Posts
    472
    Points
    1,805
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,805, Level: 11
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 45
    Overall activity: 22.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Deird View Post
    Insane garbage !!



    Dravidian is the purest group of South Asian population.
    If South Indian Tribals have high frequencies of H, then it proves H has nothing to do with Europeans.
    What's insane about it?

  23. #23
    Banned Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-06-20
    Posts
    35
    Points
    173
    Level
    2
    Points: 173, Level: 2
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 77
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: France



    Rachet_fan is a troll

    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    What's insane about it?
    I agree with another member that you [=rachet_fan] is a troll.

  24. #24
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,634
    Points
    46,809
    Level
    66
    Points: 46,809, Level: 66
    Level completed: 90%, Points required for next Level: 141
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Hopala!
    I have spread fire everywhere!
    - I think ANE under its form is not typically East-Asian in the modern meaning of the term (so drift an mutated recent 'east-asian' components) and I never said ANE was in itself West-Eurasian! I see its formation in Central Asia (so the part of it common among Caucasus and South Central and Northern South Asia pops is not by force from migrations form SIberia; I think that the ANE of "South" is not by force the complete defined ANE of North Asia which has given the paradygm. They only share a good part of it, and the today Siberian and Uralic pops rich in ANE share a good part too, surely with some exclusive parts respectivelty in both groups of pops (North and South). *
    - Y-haplo's can be in a tight connexion with global au
    tosomes sketches for a time, and after that, go their way, less by drift than by mating of their bearers with females of other pops. But I think that Y-R1 was surely central enough in ANE rich groups for a time,
    around the 20000 BC and even a bit before.
    - genetic visible traits governing phenotypes can also go their way from the global autosomal sketche. SO, even if come from South-Eastern Asia, some of our current Siberian or European ancestors, having left this supposed region of origin very long ago, had not the today more or less typical 'mongoloid' features, often associated with today 'east-asian' autosomal component(s).
    I spoke uniquely of Y-R, R1. For Y-Q, "brother" son of Y-P if I read well, I'm not sure of the road they took to join Eas-Central Asia. I have to read more.
    Concerning languages, I will not go into bets and guessings concerning very remote times and Y-haplo's, even if some ties can have existed.

    @Tamakore
    Geographically speaking, I thought to the today core of ANE; you are partly right saying Baïkal lake is East Asia, it would be better to say: Middle-East Asia. When I wrote my post, I imagined in front of my eyes the very more eastern Behring region, so even Baïkal lake did not seem too eastern to me. That said, if Mal'ta has been found near Baïkal lake, it does not mean the ANE group center of gravity was just there, who knows? And today East-Asia, even North-East Asia, it not the core of ANE sharings, even if we can think ANE rich people passed through there, because Amerindians have a good charge of ANE too.

  25. #25
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,634
    Points
    46,809
    Level
    66
    Points: 46,809, Level: 66
    Level completed: 90%, Points required for next Level: 141
    Overall activity: 26.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I know too today North-East-Asia has been genetically modified by SOuth-East Asiaz people going North.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •