Are R1b and R1a ultimately East Asian lineages?

Origins

When considering the origins of R1b, R1a and PIE, it seems to me that paleogenetics, archaeology and historical linguistics can be combined to paint a plausible picture of East Asian (or Central East Asian) origins.

Archaeologists have identified the Mal'ta-Buret' culture, with it's distinctive "Venus figurines", located near Lake Baikal with a time horizon of 24-15 kya. The subsequent (and related) Afontova Gora culture has a time horizon of 21-12 kya.

Paleogenetics has identified the ANE genetic signature of these cultures, and shown that ANE expanded across Eurasia and the Americas over the following thousands of years.

Twenty years ago, before ANE had been identified, the linguist Greenberg suggested that "the Eurasiatic-Amerind family represents a relatively recent expansion (circa 15 kya) into territory opened up by the melting of the Arctic ice cap." Greenberg's proposed Eurasiatic macro family included Indo-European, Uralic, Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Eskimo-Aleut and Chukchi-Kamchatkan. His proposed expansion of Eurasiatic-Amerind parallels the expansion of ANE ancestry.

What I would like to know is, why were the early ANE (Mal'ta-Buret') people apparently so successful? In the unpromising environment of Central Siberia in the depths of the last Ice Age they thrived and expanded whilst some other populations were huddling in refugia. Siberian winters are cold enough now, imagine how cold they were 20,000 years ago during the LGM. Did they devise techniques for hunting mammoths and reindeer that were just better than anybody else's, allowing their population to grow and migrate? The degree of ANE ancestry in many populations today suggests that they did grow faster than most other hunter-gatherer populations of their day.
 
aleph said:
Probably just happened to be in the right place at the right time- in the refugias while untold groups died out outside of those zones.
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I think we need to figure out the whole geographic picture. we know west eurasians were as far east as Kosenteki-14. And near Yana since Yan was modeled with Western ancestry reaching 72%. But Hat about in between? What about east of Yana? What was the southern border? Is there any evidence these people were y C or is my theory off? If they weren't y C what was their original lineage if not K2b? Like I said before the real action could have been happening more in the west. Does archaeology tell us of a migration from the Yana RHS area to European Russia?


Tianyuan is not a good fit for the eastern ancestry in Yana . It is Salkhit. I'd like to see if there were other uniparental makers in Yana that would tell us what happened.

Like I said In addition is there a chain of ancestry from Tianyuan to Yana to Malta? are these just side lineages that were dead ends?
 
Ancient DNA from SE Asia, India, Central Asia and North Eurasia would resolve this. Something in the 40-50K yep time frame.
 
ratchet_fan said:
That's not really different races mixing the way yP and the western portion of ANE did. If it was peaceful mixing we should see SE Asian mtdnas in ANE but so far nothing but mtdna U. The above is the equivalent of Arabian Peninsula populations mixing with Levantine ones.
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You have a funny way to look at things. no offense.
Here you misunderstood this very answer. My point was that TODAY N-E Asians pop's are the results of these crossings. Not by the time ancestors of Amerindians got their way across Behring Strait.
 
I think we have not to project our today views on human phenotypical divisions upon ancient populations, it has been already said.
Even at the genomic level, notions of 'westeurasian' or 'easteurasian' are bad criteria. If we take recent namings of autosomal poles geographically determined, we can subdivise (cut off) the same ancient Human into more than a so called "basic" genetic pop as 'papuan', 'eastasian', 'southasian', 'southwestasian', 'northeast european', 'westafrican' ... as this ancient man could be the result of crossings between very far settled pop's or - joke - occurred in his "future". At some level, the more ancient the people, the more crossbreeded they are!!! Very funny.
This proves only that today distribution of autosomes owes to a bimodal evolution with loss and enrichment of the genome by crossings and mutations + drifts. Even an ancient pop genome taken as a "pure" element will be broken off some time to come. The only sure thing is that our far ancestors shared more genes allover the globe than our current puzzled pop's do (for a while yet).
So what is ANE: is our ANE part from Mal'ta or from an ancestor of Mal'ta, or a cousin??? Who took, who gave?
people move and moved, fast or slowly: is finding an old state of uniparental haplo' in some place the proof this haplo' had THERE its gravity center of life? And its bulk of autosomes? Personally, without any right to decide, I think rather that maybe Y-K2 and Y-P had their geographic poles around NE India, but at those times people moves over long tracks for food (or not) according to ecological niche chosen by them. The "gravity center" itself is not too pertinent, if the way of life was only hunting, the surface of rovering could be very large;
more: the older the haplo' (its form), the more spread we can find him, very often, spite its rarity: hard to base some solid linguistic family theory; languages could evolve quickly when reduced to a bunch of words and forms, I suppose, and maybe it was the case in very old times (I know, I put a lot of "maybe", but it's due to the stage of my knowledge).
not to far ago the uniparental link to language could be broken by conquests, and I think, whatever the period, by a chain of mutations (new SNP's). Hope I am not too confuse. Sure, I don't carry any positive point.
 
I'm not sure where our ANE is from. I'm guessing its from Malta like people who mixed with La Brana like people to form EHG who then mixed with CHG to form WSH.

NE India? D you think Y K2 was AASI or ENA like then? or older than ancient split?

PIE is not very old so I doubt there was a constant linguistic chain from SE Asia but I'm not sure. Probably other haplos other than Y R1a/R1b were involved in PIE creation.

Also you are right. The modern distribution of y K2 does not prove this haplo had its center of gravity there. It could have easily been more Northern and rare clades only survived in the south. After all most basal P* is from Andaman islands and I don't think Andaman Islanders contributed to Yana.
 
IMO K2b and P* were born in northern India from were they split.
Many went SE into Sundaland, but PQR - ancestral to Q,R and Yana RHS went NW across the Hindu Kush into Central Asia and Siberia
 
bicicleur said:
IMO K2b and P* were born in northern India from were they split.
Many went SE into Sundaland, but PQR - ancestral to Q,R and Yana RHS went NW across the Hindu Kush into Central Asia and Siberia
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How does Tianyuan fit into this? Are you saying there were two different migrations from India to North Eurasia?

K2b*-44-45k ybp
Tianyuan K2b- 39-42 ybp
P*-30k ybp
 
I think we need to establish if the chain Tinayuan->Yana->Malta/AG3->WSHG/EHG is valid.

P was already born according to yfull when Tianyuan K2b was born so I doubt he is ancestral imo. Especially if yfull underestimated. Yana is actually a poor fit when trying to model Malta and AG3. So maybe the action was actually in a geographically and genetically more western population.

Does the modern diversity of K2b/P really hold that much weight? Nobody actually thinks SE Asians conquered North Eurasia and wiped out the West Eurasian lineages there do they?
 
Well it turns out Ust-Ishim, Oase, Bacho Kiro, Tianyuan were all part of an Initial Upper Paleolithic population that had C1a, K2a, K2b, so that solves that. Tianyuan is for sure K2b but likely P1* upstream of Yana.

So ANE was just gradients of admixture at various points between these people and the later UP wave, and Salkhit, Yana, Mal'ta, Afontova Gora, and even Goyet are all just variants of this spectrum.
 
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Assume the possibilities of your hypothesis with an open mind.

kingjohn said:
C is also very common in
Australian natives 😉
Maybe C is the earliest branch
To left africa probably by southern route🤔
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We seem to get too hung up on narratives and orthidox theories.
Once you realize you've been lied and misled you're whole life, you begin to scientifically question everything.
 
The evidence is piling up that what we consider to be areas of northern Eurasia were quite a bit warmer prior to 12:13 thousand years ago.
What's kind of being covered up is the cyclical nature of cometary bombardment and catastrophe for obvious reasons.
Indeed simply a glance at Mammoths makes you realize that they simply could not survive on the Northern tundra.
With it what is enormous water and vegetation needs to sustain their lives ?
it just is so simple --this whole area was thriving with life and was much much warmer than today.
These Earth changes , if you will, have a far greater impact on the epigenetic changes of populations then say internecine warfare.
 
I believe R is from central Asia no? I think it don't have anything to do with East Asia.
 
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