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Thread: Sardinian-like admixture signal in armenians around the end of the bronze age

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    Sardinian-like admixture signal in armenians around the end of the bronze age

    "We show that Armenians have indeed remained unadmixed through the Neolithic and at least until the first part of the Bronze Age, and fail to find any support for historical suggestions by Herodotus of an input from the Balkans.

    However, we do detect a genetic input of Sardinian-like ancestry during or just after the Middle-Late Bronze Age"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...06.24.168781v1
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    Sardinian-like would be early European farmer, I'd guess. Sardinia is where that peaks as I remember.

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    Probably the Sea People.

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    These bronzes from middle to late bronze age in sardinia are very similar to some that appear in Armenian Tumuli:



    I also think sea people make sense.

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    Note the deer totem in front of the boat, is also in front of the chariot in Armenian examples

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    davidski conclusions

    source:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/0...rehistory.html


    For what it's worth, here's a brief outline of the population history of the Armenian Highland based on what I've learned about the topic from ancient DNA in recent years:


    - overall, the Neolithic populations of the Armenian Highland were surely very similar to the Caucasus_lowlands_LN samples from what is now Azerbaijan from the recent Skourtanioti et al. paper (see here)

    - Chalcolithic era migrations from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and/or the North Caucasus introduced steppe ancestry to the Armenian Highland, bringing at least some of its populations closer genetically to those of Eastern Europe (a somewhat outdated but still useful blog post about this subject is found here)

    - population expansions during the Early Bronze Age associated with the Kura-Araxes cultural phenomenon, which may have originated in what is now Armenia, resulted in a resurgence of indigenous Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG) ancestry across the Caucasus, as well as its spread to many other parts of West Asia (see here)

    - another significant pulse of Eastern European admixture affected the Armenian Highland during the Middle-Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (see here)

    - it's not yet completely clear what happened in the Armenian Highland during the Iron Age in terms of significant genetic shifts, due to the lack of ancient human samples from the region dating to this period, but it's still possible that the speakers of proto-Armenian arrived there from the Balkans at this time

    - the present-day Armenian gene pool is the result of the processes described above, as well as later events, such as those associated with the Urartian and Ottoman Empires.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    These bronzes from middle to late bronze age in sardinia are very similar to some that appear in Armenian Tumuli:

    I also think sea people make sense.
    I don't see too tight correlations in designs (styles).
    Only some animals centered figures which could mark som community of believings?
    I read somewhere bull representations marked rather a Neat-East origin, and personally, I see also some link between Nourragic Sardinians, Sardanas and Anatolia/South Caucasus.
    But I'm not an expert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't see too tight correlations in designs (styles).
    Only some animals centered figures which could mark som community of believings?
    I read somewhere bull representations marked rather a Neat-East origin, and personally, I see also some link between Nourragic Sardinians, Sardanas and Anatolia/South Caucasus.
    But I'm not an expert.
    Robert Drews connects the Myceneans with the Armenian "Deer in front of Chariot" chariot trinkets (meant to be dangling in front of chariot).

    In Mycenean seals, a Deer chasing scene appears with a chariot chasing a deer specifically. I think that having a deer infront of a boat is quite peculiar and must come from the similar logic of these trinkets. Possibly this middle-late bronze age Sardinian-like signal in Armenians is from the movement that introduced proto-Armenian into Armenia, and maybe even Mycenean into Crete?


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    Hittite chariot trinkets, to be dangled in front. Also a deer.

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    "Among modern-day populations, Sardinians have the highest affinity to early European farmers, and often act as a proxy for that ancestry in population genetic analyses [10, 11]. We assume that the migration more likely came from the Middle East, rather than a relatively isolated Mediterranean island. However, we were not able to find any detectable signal of gene flow from an ancient Anatolian farmer-like source (Table 2, Supplementary Table 3). According to recent studies, 38-44% of the ancestry of modern Sardinians is derived from an Iranian, Steppe and North-African-related source [12]. Likewise, we did not reveal any Iranian-related ancestry in modern Armenians that may have altered them from their regional ancestors (Table 2, Supplementary Table 3). Thus, it is more likely that the true source of gene flow to the Armenian Highland is yet unsampled, and that the time span between the date of mixture (i.e. at some point during/after the Bronze age) and all available ancient individuals of the Middle Eastern region (which are much older) is too large for the latter to act as representative sources"

    they say it came from near east. but they can't detect iran neolithic or anatolian farmer? why exactly would "sardinian" be detected?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    "Among modern-day populations, Sardinians have the highest affinity to early European farmers, and often act as a proxy for that ancestry in population genetic analyses [10, 11]. We assume that the migration more likely came from the Middle East, rather than a relatively isolated Mediterranean island. However, we were not able to find any detectable signal of gene flow from an ancient Anatolian farmer-like source (Table 2, Supplementary Table 3). According to recent studies, 38-44% of the ancestry of modern Sardinians is derived from an Iranian, Steppe and North-African-related source [12]. Likewise, we did not reveal any Iranian-related ancestry in modern Armenians that may have altered them from their regional ancestors (Table 2, Supplementary Table 3). Thus, it is more likely that the true source of gene flow to the Armenian Highland is yet unsampled, and that the time span between the date of mixture (i.e. at some point during/after the Bronze age) and all available ancient individuals of the Middle Eastern region (which are much older) is too large for the latter to act as representative sources"

    they say it came from near east. but they can't detect iran neolithic or anatolian farmer? why exactly would "sardinian" be detected?
    Like Progon said, I would guess it is picking up something from Nuragic Sardinian signature (Sea Peoples, Sherden), if it was middle east it should have shown up as closer to Anatolian or Iran Neolithic (correct me if wrong).

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    davidski conclusions


    - another significant pulse of Eastern European admixture affected the Armenian Highland during the Middle-Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age (see here)

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    However, we do detect a genetic input of Sardinian-like ancestry during or just after the Middle-Late Bronze Age"
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    - it's not yet completely clear what happened in the Armenian Highland during the Iron Age in terms of significant genetic shifts, due to the lack of ancient human samples from the region dating to this period, but it's still possible that the speakers of proto-Armenian arrived there from the Balkans at this time
    It's not just "possible" but likely. Armenian language is a Paleo-Balkan language according to some authoritative views, with some links to Greek and Albanian. Paleo-Balkan peoples were a mixture of about 60 % Sardinian-like and 40 % Yamnaya like, though these percentages varied. That is why Armenians show Sardinian-like ancestry while their neighbors don't from what I've seen (certainly not North Caucasians). So combine those 2 and you get proto-Armenians who were Paleo-Balkan like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It's not just "possible" but likely. Armenian language is a Paleo-Balkan language according to some authoritative views, with some links to Greek and Albanian. Paleo-Balkan peoples were a mixture of about 60 % Sardinian-like and 40 % Yamnaya like, though these percentages varied. That is why Armenians show Sardinian-like ancestry while their neighbors don't from what I've seen (certainly not North Caucasians). So combine those 2 and you get proto-Armenians who were Paleo-Balkan like.

    when you say paleo balkan people were 60% sardinian like do you mean anatolian neolithic? that would be what the authors didn't find. maybe the authors think that it was a population like modern sardinians. but sardinians don't have 40% steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    when you say paleo balkan people were 60% sardinian like do you mean anatolian neolithic? that would be what the authors didn't find. maybe the authors think that it was a population like modern sardinians. but sardinians don't have 40% steppe.
    Yes, Paleo-Balkan groups ranged from 50 % EEF/like in the West to more in Thracian sample for ex. In some calculators involving such samples and modern populations you often get Sardinians. Especially if neighbors of Armenians lack this admixture out of Balkans proto-Armenians might be the right answer.

    Authors didn't find this "Steppe" element but this Steppe element might be submerged under the general Steppe element they found. That is why I quoted Davidski, who claims they have some EE/Steppe element from LBA/EIA. When you combine that Steppe element with some EEF like or Sardinian like admixture you should get some Paleo-Balkan-like group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Robert Drews connects the Myceneans with the Armenian "Deer in front of Chariot" chariot trinkets (meant to be dangling in front of chariot).

    In Mycenean seals, a Deer chasing scene appears with a chariot chasing a deer specifically. I think that having a deer infront of a boat is quite peculiar and must come from the similar logic of these trinkets. Possibly this middle-late bronze age Sardinian-like signal in Armenians is from the movement that introduced proto-Armenian into Armenia, and maybe even Mycenean into Crete?

    connexions exist. What is to find is which substratum or which superstratum from. Are some of these cultural features an IE or a pre-IE (not IE), maybe even a post-IE heritage. If some ties between Nurragic Sardinians and Near-Eastern/Sth Caucasus or Egea exist, I doubt they were from IEans. Maybe I misinderpreted your post?

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    besides

    To begin with, I'm abit disappointed when I look at different scientific surveys aboutancient pop's. Their admixtures sketches don't give the same resultsfor the same pop's, and sometimes it goes far enough, too far.
    That said, in thisvery topic, maybe 'sardinian' is for 'EEFlike' or 'ANFlike' (somenuances).
    If they speak oftoday Sardinian compound, it deserves to be precised, because itimplies a lot of EEF + some Iranlike (here again could be discussedand precised) + some rare Steppic, kind of mix than can be found inpost-Neolithic Anatolia/South-Caucasus at some level, without toomuch extra admixture from any population of Mediterranea orSoutheastern Europe. Here reliable admixtures %'s and even IBDare required to give valuable results, I think.
    On another side,even if off topic, I find very astonishing these proud affirmationsthat Armenian pop showed until recently no introgression fromoutside. The everlasting proud concept of « continuity ».Metrics and autosomes and uniparentals show us more than anintrogression into Armenia in far past (at least since Chalcolithic),even if never any turn over occurred.


    By the way, I findsome admixture anlaysis amazing concerning today Sardinians : Idoubt personally they have really so few EEF or EEF-WHG.

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    A migration from Sardinia to the West Asia in the Bronze Age is certainly possible, ancient Mesopotamians and other people of West Asia learned many things from them, like building ziggurats, I mentioned it some months ago here: https://www.quora.com/Did-Proto-Indo...jtaba-Shahmiri

    They were actually Europeans who built the first ziggurats, the world’s oldest known ziggurat is Monte d'Accoddi in Sardinia, Italy which was built about 3,000 BC, in the Middle east the oldest one is Sialk ziggurat in Kashan in the central Iran, which was built some hundreds years later, and in Mesopotamia the oldest one is Ziggurat of Ur which dates back to 21st century BC.


    Monte d'Accoddi & Sialk ziggurat

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    Other than ziggurats, we aslo see huge similarities between Sardnian and Iranian/Armenian menhirs and dolmens.

    Oshakan, Armenia:



    Laconi, Sardinia:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    A migration from Sardinia to the West Asia in the Bronze Age is certainly possible, ancient Mesopotamians and other people of West Asia learned many things from them, like building ziggurats, I mentioned it some months ago here: https://www.quora.com/Did-Proto-Indo...jtaba-Shahmiri
    I don't think anyone is suggesting an actual migration from Sardinia to Armenia. Also what do ziggurats which predate this admixture have to do with anything?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I don't think anyone is suggesting an actual migration from Sardinia to Armenia. Also what do ziggurats which predate this admixture have to do with anything?
    Yes, this study also says: "We assume that the migration more likely came from the Middle East, rather than a relatively isolated Mediterranean island." In fact Sardinians first came to another land in the Middle East and then people of this land migrated to Armenia.

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