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Thread: How far were ANE/EHG/WSHG spread?

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    Incidentally, I've just read that N1 was already present in one Botai individual (another population that was mainly EHG + extra ANE + a bit of ENA), so it seems the westward spread of N lineages into West-Central Asia and later Eastern Europe had already begun before the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Incidentally, I've just read that N1 was already present in one Botai individual (another population that was mainly EHG + extra ANE + a bit of ENA), so it seems the westward spread of N lineages into West-Central Asia and later Eastern Europe had already begun before the Bronze Age.
    That guy could easily be a outlier. I would bet Botai and most WSHG were R1b. And I also doubt this guy was ancestral to the wave of N that hit Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    We have no ways to know.
    What would you guess though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    What would you guess though?
    I'm really the least person here that can help you with that.

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    I think we cannot affirm all Y-R1a bearers in N-E Europe came from I-Ens. We even don't know what languages spoke the HG's South Finland and the E-Baltic lands before the first Finnish speakers arrival. It seems some of them spoke a not-I-E not Uralic language (from post-Swiderian people come from West?)? Seemingly Saami Finnic absorbed words of this language plus some of a Satemlike language. In West, Finnic seems appearing rather lately (Iron? or a bit sooner?) so it doesn't prove that this Satemlike I-E (CWC?) language was very old there. I think some specific old subclades of Y-R1a could have been absorbed by the Uralic "rulers" there or even earlier in more eastern lands, or at least a great autosomal (EHG) DNA part has been absorbed even if the males lineages (R1a) have been swept off. Maybe some Y-R1b pop's from Baltic HG's could have had the same destiny. So if not-I-E Y-R1a markers were rare among Uralic or Uralicized pop's, these not-I-E Y-R1a had transmitted the autosomes and mt- markers of their pop to the mix formed by the crossings with Uralic speakers pop's at diverse ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    R1a was not well represented among the old Uralics. Nobody believes that besides Carlos Quiles. R1a in Uralics comes from Indo-Europeans.
    Also N and probably N1c-tat is clearly a lineage from Neolithic Baikal/North China.
    Short answer before I dig deeper in the question and data.
    I don't know if we have the samples to affirm or contradict this about old Uralics. Y-R1a was present West the Ourals long ago I think, it was in Karelia. But it's not by force the same clades as the future IE Y-R1a clades (like CWC by instance). ATW the genesis of first speakers of Finnic-Ugric dialects is uncertain and complicated. It's possible that these 'europoids' (maybe Y-R1a, not sure) of Volga-Kama were not true Uralic speakers and were "teached" in Uralic by some Y-N1 ou -N3 clade (I'm lost for Y-N because they changed the namings more than a time!), who knows? the relatively late Seyma-Turbino "people" or rather cultural profile had strong influence but are we sure they were the first bearers of Finnic-Ugric languages? The genesis of the languages requires longer time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Incidentally, I've just read that N1 was already present in one Botai individual (another population that was mainly EHG + extra ANE + a bit of ENA), so it seems the westward spread of N lineages into West-Central Asia and later Eastern Europe had already begun before the Bronze Age.
    There's apparently samples on the way indicating Proto Uralics were basically Nganasan like not WSHG like. SO they probably looked like this.










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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    There's apparently samples on the way indicating Proto Uralics were basically Nganasan like not WSHG like. SO they probably looked like this.










    Thanks.
    The people whose pics you show us are current era period, not the ancient one possibly involved in proto-Uralic people genesis. Some of them show evident traces of crossings with 'europoids' (surely modern Russians, byt perhaps more ancient), as well in the pigmentation aspect as in the bones aspect.
    And the fact that Nganassans people should have been the principal sources of Uralic ancestors is far to be proved.

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