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Thread: How far were ANE/EHG/WSHG spread?

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    How far were ANE/EHG/WSHG spread?

    I've always been curious on how far the West Eurasian population that contributed to Yana was spread.
    What about EHG?
    ANd WHSG? Did they extend into the Tarim Basin?

    And what languages and y lineages were in NW Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northw...deral_District) before Uralics? What about before Indo-Europeans?

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5204334/

    Interesting paper.

    So is Uralic the language of West Siberians or East Siberians? And if East Siberians were N1c carriers what were West Siberians?

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    EHG and WSHG were drifted and admixed population clusters of much earlier admixtures, so I think they spread far less than an older and more basal admixture like ANE. ANE is extremely widespread since it contributed significant ancestry to EHG, Iran_N, CHG, WSHG and Paleo-Siberians and Proto-Amerindians. So, it's now certainly found from Africa to the Americas (considering only native populations) and from Iceland to Sri Lanka. A huge dispersal though only indirectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5204334/

    Interesting paper.

    So is Uralic the language of West Siberians or East Siberians? And if East Siberians were N1c carriers what were West Siberians?
    My personal favorite hypothesis is that, since Uralic seems to have some uncanny if only sparse similarities with basic PIE roots (pronouns, verb conjugation, some basic words) Proto-Uralic was the language of northern EHG (quite drifted apart from the southern EHG under heavy CHG influence that I think ultimately gave origin to PIE), and it was originally associated mainly with R1a and I2 clades, but N1c carriers contributed a minor WSHG and EA ancestry to them, without causing a significnt language shift in Northeastern Europe, though. I think Proto-Uralic should be found somewhere in the Upper Volga-Kama-Oka rivers a bit north of the PIE-speaking steppe tribes, and it's probably more linked to Northeastern European cultures like Volosovo and Netted Ware.

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    agree with you

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    My personal favorite hypothesis is that, since Uralic seems to have some uncanny if only sparse similarities with basic PIE roots (pronouns, verb conjugation, some basic words) Proto-Uralic was the language of northern EHG (quite drifted apart from the southern EHG under heavy CHG influence that I think ultimately gave origin to PIE), and it was originally associated mainly with R1a and I2 clades, but N1c carriers contributed a minor WSHG and EA ancestry to them, without causing a significnt language shift in Northeastern Europe, though. I think Proto-Uralic should be found somewhere in the Upper Volga-Kama-Oka rivers a bit north of the PIE-speaking steppe tribes, and it's probably more linked to Northeastern European cultures like Volosovo and Netted Ware.
    I think you're reading too much Carlos Quiles. I'm not buying it.

    Doesn't Volosovo contain R1b-L51?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I think you're reading too much Carlos Quiles. I'm not buying it.

    Doesn't Volosovo contain R1b-L51?
    Me? Not at all. Carlos Quiles has a ridiculous idea that CWC was Proto-Uralic from Sredny Stog, Yamnaya was PIE from Khvalynsk/Repin, and both PIE and PU derived from a common Indo-Uralic language from around the 6th millennium B.C., which IMO is just unbelievably implausible. What I am saying has nothing to do with that. Volosovo, Netted Ware and other such NE cultures were not of steppe origin and not (originally at least) pastoralist. They're probably linked to the earlir Comb Ceramic culture.

    AFAIK no R1b-L51 was found in the steppe or in its vicinity from before the CWC and Yamnaya times. What's your source about that? That'd be really interesting if it's from before the steppe expansion to Northern Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Me? Not at all. Carlos Quiles has a ridiculous idea that CWC was Proto-Uralic from Sredny Stog, Yamnaya was PIE from Khvalynsk/Repin, and both PIE and PU derived from a common Indo-Uralic language from around the 6th millennium B.C., which IMO is just unbelievably implausible. What I am saying has nothing to do with that. Volosovo, Netted Ware and other such NE cultures were not of steppe origin and not (originally at least) pastoralist. They're probably linked to the earlir Comb Ceramic culture.

    AFAIK no R1b-L51 was found in the steppe or in its vicinity from before the CWC and Yamnaya times. What's your source about that? That'd be really interesting if it's from before the steppe expansion to Northern Europe.
    Ok. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that Uralic was the language of Northern EHG. Uralic is a recent intrusion from east of the Urals from a probably predominantly ENA population that picked up EHG ancestry while moving west. A lot of people (not you) have an agenda to make Uralic be the language of an EHG population or Andronovo like population. That isn't the case.

    Source on Volosovo R1b-L51? Same as the source on Ancient Egypt. I believe Eurogenes blog owner found that there was L51 in the forest zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Ok. I'm just disagreeing with the idea that Uralic was the language of Northern EHG. Uralic is a recent intrusion from east of the Urals from a probably predominantly ENA population that picked up EHG ancestry while moving west. A lot of people (not you) have an agenda to make Uralic be the language of an EHG population or Andronovo like population. That isn't the case.

    Source on Volosovo R1b-L51? Same as the source on Ancient Egypt. I believe Eurogenes blog owner found that there was L51 in the forest zone.
    Only amateurs think that way. From David Anthony to Bomhard basically all experts say that Uralic was spoken close to PIE--> Northern EHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Only amateurs think that way. From David Anthony to Bomhard basically all experts say that Uralic was spoken close to PIE--> Northern EHG.
    So Proto Uralic speakers were composed of R1a, R1b and J males? What happened to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    So Proto Uralic speakers were composed of R1a, R1b and J males? What happened to them?
    I have the same hypothesis like Ygorcs. The autosomal impact was very little even if N males took over most parts. The same could be said about Iberia. R1b took over but the language didn't change to IE.

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    Old school in Hungary, interested in Uralic story, thought the first Uralic people were of old Eurasian stock (the famous 'proto-Europoid' type or 'east-Cromagnoid') and mixed only later with tribes from more eastern lands (East of Ourals?), with more than a subtype of East-Asian origin..
    The most ancient Uralic (and even Ugric) lexicon seems pointing to a society of fishers/hunters/
    gatherers and words for a wet and cold environment with a lot of fishes and trees kinds, but the words for horse, stirrup, whip, saddle are part of ancient Ugric (later than the Finnic/Ugric break).
    We can suppose Y-R1a was already well respresented among the old Uralics.
    Concerning Y-haplo's, Y-N3 at least could be older in eastern Europe than in South Siberia! So it could have played a role very soon too?
    But we know that association between language and Y-haplo's is not so evident as time passes, even if this association seems more evident than language-mtDNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Old school in Hungary, interested in Uralic story, thought the first Uralic people were of old Eurasian stock (the famous 'proto-Europoid' type or 'east-Cromagnoid') and mixed only later with tribes from more eastern lands (East of Ourals?), with more than a subtype of East-Asian origin..
    The most ancient Uralic (and even Ugric) lexicon seems pointing to a society of fishers/hunters/
    gatherers and words for a wet and cold environment with a lot of fishes and trees kinds, but the words for horse, stirrup, whip, saddle are part of ancient Ugric (later than the Finnic/Ugric break).
    We can suppose Y-R1a was already well respresented among the old Uralics.
    Concerning Y-haplo's, Y-N3 at least could be older in eastern Europe than in South Siberia! So it could have played a role very soon too?
    But we know that association between language and Y-haplo's is not so evident as time passes, even if this association seems more evident than language-mtDNA.
    R1a was not well represented among the old Uralics. Nobody believes that besides Carlos Quiles. R1a in Uralics comes from Indo-Europeans.
    Also N and probably N1c-tat is clearly a lineage from Neolithic Baikal/North China.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    R1a was not well represented among the old Uralics. Nobody believes that besides Carlos Quiles. R1a in Uralics comes from Indo-Europeans.
    Also N and probably N1c-tat is clearly a lineage from Neolithic Baikal/North China.
    I happen to think R1a was ONCE very common among PRE-Uralic speakers, who were mainly along the cline from EHG to WSHG... but that would've been centuries if not millennia before Proto-Uralic itself was last spoken in its latest undiverged stage and was starting to expand, which was probably not that long ago, I mean, after the start of the IE expansion, so ~4000-5000 years ago according to some more recent dating estimates I read some months ago (IIRC). By that time, a lot of things may have happened, including the creation of a completely different Y-DNA makeup due to all the not so agreeable aspects that cause Y-DNA haplogroups to have a particularly strong drift in many ancient societies, particularly those with small spopulations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I have the same hypothesis like Ygorcs. The autosomal impact was very little even if N males took over most parts. The same could be said about Iberia. R1b took over but the language didn't change to IE.
    Precisely my hypothesis. Proto-Uralic has BOTH Late PIE and early Indo-Iranian loanwords in abundant quantity, and it also has some really intriguing parallels with PIE in the most stable part of the language, which is the basic structure of the sentence-building blocks (like pronouns, conjugation particles). Because of that I just can't assume a language that had developed for a long time very far away, in China or Mongolia, and only became widespread in Northeastern Europe after it expanded to that region crossing almost all the vast expanse of Eurasia. It was probably a language that developed and was spoken in very close and enduring contacts with PIE and later Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic speakers. The best explanation is: a EHG population north of the steppe and afterwards north and east of the CWC-derived cultures like Fatyanovo and Abashevo. Indeed, if you model Uralic populations today, the majority of them (not all, though) show a very significant amount of EHG in excess of CHG-admixed steppe ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I happen to think R1a was ONCE very common among PRE-Uralic speakers, who were mainly along the cline from EHG to WSHG... but that would've been centuries if not millennia before Proto-Uralic itself was last spoken in its latest undiverged stage and was starting to expand, which was probably not that long ago, I mean, after the start of the IE expansion, so ~4000-5000 years ago according to some more recent dating estimates I read some months ago (IIRC). By that time, a lot of things may have happened, including the creation of a completely different Y-DNA makeup due to all the not so agreeable aspects that cause Y-DNA haplogroups to have a particularly strong drift in many ancient societies, particularly those with small spopulations.
    There's nothing to support that at the current time. The R1a assertion as well as assuming pre-Uralic speakers were 80 to 100% West Eurasian. TBH I've only ever heard these theories from believes Finns trying to distance themselves from the Asiansness of their ancestors haplogorups and autosomal DNA. These are the people who argue pre-Uralics were essentially a steppe Andronovo population or argue y N was common in the steppes or even that Uralics were mostly y R1 and I.

    And honestly if there were any R1 lineages within Uralic speakers its likely to be R1b. Its the older, numerous and more widespread haplogroup. There are are subclades of it restricted to east of the Urals. Its also popped up in Volosovo and Botai (besides y N actually although I imagine Botai was mostly R1b)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    There's nothing to support that at the current time. The R1a assertion as well as assuming pre-Uralic speakers were 80 to 100% West Eurasian. TBH I've only ever heard these theories from believes Finns trying to distance themselves from the Asiansness of their ancestors haplogorups and autosomal DNA. These are the people who argue pre-Uralics were essentially a steppe Andronovo population or argue y N was common in the steppes or even that Uralics were mostly y R1 and I.

    And honestly if there were any R1 lineages within Uralic speakers its likely to be R1b. Its the older, numerous and more widespread haplogroup. There are are subclades of it restricted to east of the Urals. Its also popped up in Volosovo and Botai (besides y N actually although I imagine Botai was mostly R1b)
    Could've been a majority of R1b too (maybe the M343 found in Botai). It still wouldn't change the hypothesis on the autosomal DNA and geographical motivations for that position. What would've happened to Proto-Uralics in my opinion was similar to what happened with Chadic speakers: they expanded a lot to Central Asia spreading very high frequencies of R1b-V88 even though they V88 probably came ultimately from EEF and ANF settled in North Africa and gradually more and more admixed with (first) indigenous North Africans and (later) indigenous Sahelians and West Africans until you got people who have extremely high R1b frequencies, but very little ANF/EEF-related admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Could've been a majority of R1b too (maybe the M343 found in Botai). It still wouldn't change the hypothesis on the autosomal DNA and geographical motivations for that position. What would've happened to Proto-Uralics in my opinion was similar to what happened with Chadic speakers: they expanded a lot to Central Asia spreading very high frequencies of R1b-V88 even though they V88 probably came ultimately from EEF and ANF settled in North Africa and gradually more and more admixed with (first) indigenous North Africans and (later) indigenous Sahelians and West Africans until you got people who have extremely high R1b frequencies, but very little ANF/EEF-related admixture.
    It still requires a very convoluted way of thinking to explain away how N is ubiquitous in Uralic speakers from the Sammi to Nganasan, R1a and R1b in the populations are all young Indo-European clades and all of these populations have significant East Eurasian ancestry.

    If we go by this logic Proto Indo-Europeans could have been y J CHG carriers too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I think you're reading too much Carlos Quiles. I'm not buying it.

    Doesn't Volosovo contain R1b-L51?
    Where did you get this information of Volosovo with R1b-L51? The recent paper only talks about Q1a2.

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    Whats interesting is that R1a even if in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic, shows signs of contact with Siberia and ANE ancestry as shown with mtdna R1b and C1g in Karelia HG. The story of R1a seems as complicated as the one of the R1b.

    We will need way more datas, but i'm starting to consider that the Eastern components of the so-called " Post-Swiderian Cultures " might be more linked with Q1a2 than with R1. We will have to see. With the idea that somehow R1a even tho similar in admixture to R1b in the Mesolithic ( EHG ), would have receive some Eastern ancestry through the Mesolithic/Neolithic transition in the North-Eastern Forest/Taiga Zone linked with Q1a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Where did you get this information of Volosovo with R1b-L51? The recent paper only talks about Q1a2.
    There's been mention of this on other sites about unreleased samples being L51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Whats interesting is that R1a even if in Eastern Europe since the Mesolithic, shows signs of contact with Siberia and ANE ancestry as shown with mtdna R1b and C1g in Karelia HG. The story of R1a seems as complicated as the one of the R1b.

    We will need way more datas, but i'm starting to consider that the Eastern components of the so-called " Post-Swiderian Cultures " might be more linked with Q1a2 than with R1. We will have to see. With the idea that somehow R1a even tho similar in admixture to R1b in the Mesolithic ( EHG ), would have receive some Eastern ancestry through the Mesolithic/Neolithic transition in the North-Eastern Forest/Taiga Zone linked with Q1a2.
    Why do you think the Q1a2 is more recent? Couldn't R1a, R1b and Q all have a similar chronological history in Eastern Europe? Also I would expect the Taiga zone to have some N too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Why do you think the Q1a2 is more recent? Couldn't R1a, R1b and Q all have a similar chronological history in Eastern Europe? Also I would expect the Taiga zone to have some N too.
    More recent, in the sense of more recent in Eastern Europe? As i said, we need way more samples to get a story down. Proper Swiderian samples would be nice. DNA of Bullet-Shaped Core Cultures of Western Siberia would be also nice.

    But i just think Q1a2 didn't came in Europe in the same time, or along R1. All this is matter of founding the outliers in the good time frame inside the whole EHG population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    More recent, in the sense of more recent in Eastern Europe? As i said, we need way more samples to get a story down. Proper Swiderian samples would be nice. DNA of Bullet-Shaped Core Cultures of Western Siberia would be also nice.

    But i just think Q1a2 didn't came in Europe in the same time, or along R1. All this is matter of founding the outliers in the good time frame inside the whole EHG population.
    What do you think the autosomal composition of R1a/R1b carriers was when they arrived in Europe before mixing with WHG to form EHG? What about Q1a2 carriers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    It still requires a very convoluted way of thinking to explain away how N is ubiquitous in Uralic speakers from the Sammi to Nganasan, R1a and R1b in the populations are all young Indo-European clades and all of these populations have significant East Eurasian ancestry.

    If we go by this logic Proto Indo-Europeans could have been y J CHG carriers too.
    What do you mean by "significant"? Most Uralic populations have less than 5-10% East Eurasian ancestry, and Hungarians and Estonians have barely anything (>1-2%). What the large majority of them do have in common is excess EHG.

    Not so convoluted. It's happened before and even in historical times (e.g. Hungarian itself in Pannonia). Also, consider the fact that genetics is not the only thing that's used to ascertain what hypotheses are more likely. Linguistics and archaeology matters just as much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    What do you think the autosomal composition of R1a/R1b carriers was when they arrived in Europe before mixing with WHG to form EHG? What about Q1a2 carriers?
    I dont know at all, we are only speculating for the sake of speculating here. But i think Q1a2 probably was originally from a population with both Western and Eastern Eurasian ancestry in good proportions. Something similar to Botai or Okunevo. Something that will be hard to found in Eastern Europe in the Mesolithic/Neolithic, but could be found at some point.

    R1 seems definitely linked with ANE. But we still dont know who came to birth first between WHG,EHG and CHG. I'm sure we will get samples from early Epigravettian that will show an ancestry similar to Dzudzuana, closer to Vestonice than Villabruna, but not exactly like Villabruna at some point. From there will be the question of what is really Villabruna 1, and if the difference is a lack of ancestry of an ANE like population. There new questions will have to be responded.

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