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Thread: Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I was trying to figure out in Vahaduo, out of curiosity, the possible richest people in the world in Natufian-like ancestry. Apparently they are the Mahra from Yemen, with ~76%. Saudis would get almost the same: ~73%.



    "The Mahri language of Southern Arabian is one of the few indigenous, non-Arabic languages remaining on the Arabian Peninsula, and since Mahri is a non-written language, poetry in the Mahri language is a strictly oral art form." https://asuevents.asu.edu/content/in...loration-mahri

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    interesting,thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I was trying to figure out in Vahaduo, out of curiosity, the possible richest people in the world in Natufian-like ancestry. Apparently they are the Mahra from Yemen, with ~76%. Saudis would get almost the same: ~73%.



    "The Mahri language of Southern Arabian is one of the few indigenous, non-Arabic languages remaining on the Arabian Peninsula, and since Mahri is a non-written language, poetry in the Mahri language is a strictly oral art form." https://asuevents.asu.edu/content/in...loration-mahri

    How much natufian -like admixture do
    yemenite jews
    Score? ( as they mixed with the arabian tribes of yemen during the last 1400 years)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC7391/

    https://yfull.com/mtree/H3ap/

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post

    How much natufian -like admixture do
    yemenite jews
    Score? ( as they mixed with the arabian tribes of yemen during the last 1400 years)
    Perhaps something like ~10 points less, but this is one model. The score may vary a bit from model to model (scaled, unscaled, penalty, no penalty...).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I was trying to figure out in Vahaduo, out of curiosity, the possible richest people in the world in Natufian-like ancestry. Apparently they are the Mahra from Yemen, with ~76%. Saudis would get almost the same: ~73%.



    "The Mahri language of Southern Arabian is one of the few indigenous, non-Arabic languages remaining on the Arabian Peninsula, and since Mahri is a non-written language, poetry in the Mahri language is a strictly oral art form." https://asuevents.asu.edu/content/in...loration-mahri
    Yes, indeed. They are also one of those things that bother Afrocentrics so much, because they have little or no African ancestry and yet they are pretty dark-skinned, but with very Caucasoid features... and, you know, the aDNA samples from Egypt show closest genetic affinity to modern Yemenites, including the Mahri people. That, of course, is a big problem for them to tackle, because it suggests that even if Ancient Egyptians were really as brown-skinned as the MALES as portrayed in their ancient artwork, we might be seeing just a Mahri-like people, that wouldn't have to imply any major black indigenous African input that was "diluted" in the last 2,000-2,500 years.

    IMO the Eurasian people that spread herding and cereal harvesting and later cultivation to Northeast Africa and thence to East Africa were much more Natufian-like than Levant_N-like or Levant_BA-like. Indeed, all my models of heavily Eurasian-shifted East Africans pick a lot more (or even solely) Natufian than ANF, CHG or Iran_N.

    Interestingly, some people think the Mahri look South Asian. I don't know, to me they look just like darker-skinned Southwest Asians:








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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The post-Roman Egypt paper models Levant_N as half Natufian, half Anatolian_N:

    That's also basically what I get in G25 models: ~50-60% ANF + ~40-50% Natufian. So a heavy dilution of Natufian ancestry already happened between the Epipaleolithic and the Early Neolithic... or it might also be (at least partly) that some still unsampled Levantine people had much less North African (Taforalt-like) ancestry than the typical Natufians, and they also expanded together with the Natufians when agriculture was fully developed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, indeed. They are also one of those things that bother Afrocentrics so much, because they have little or no African ancestry and yet they are pretty dark-skinned, but with very Caucasoid features... and, you know, the aDNA samples from Egypt show closest genetic affinity to modern Yemenites, including the Mahri people. That, of course, is a big problem for them to tackle, because it suggests that even if Ancient Egyptians were really as brown-skinned as the MALES as portrayed in their ancient artwork, we might be seeing just a Mahri-like people, that wouldn't have to imply any major black indigenous African input that was "diluted" in the last 2,000-2,500 years.
    IMO the Eurasian people that spread herding and cereal harvesting and later cultivation to Northeast Africa and thence to East Africa were much more Natufian-like than Levant_N-like or Levant_BA-like. Indeed, all my models of heavily Eurasian-shifted East Africans pick a lot more (or even solely) Natufian than ANF, CHG or Iran_N.
    Interestingly, some people think the Mahri look South Asian. I don't know, to me they look just like darker-skinned Southwest Asians:




    Good paper to read
    On autosomal of yemenites
    In different yemen provinces
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/749341v1
    Modern yemenites have significant african admixture 15-20% except one group there....
    But 80% of there total genome can still be modeled as lebanese bronze age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's also basically what I get in G25 models: ~50-60% ANF + ~40-50% Natufian. So a heavy dilution of Natufian ancestry already happened between the Epipaleolithic and the Early Neolithic... or it might also be (at least partly) that some still unsampled Levantine people had much less North African (Taforalt-like) ancestry than the typical Natufians, and they also expanded together with the Natufians when agriculture was fully developed.
    Precisely. Lazaridis et al. got a very good p-value modeling Levant PPNB as 59.1% Natufian and 40.9% Dzudzuana, at the same time Dzudzuana and ANF were pretty similar. So...

    @Kingjohn
    Notice that Natufian contribution among Yemenites may vary. We were talking specifically about Mahri, who seem to have more of it compared to other Yemenites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I was trying to figure out in Vahaduo, out of curiosity, the possible richest people in the world in Natufian-like ancestry. Apparently they are the Mahra from Yemen, with ~76%. Saudis would get almost the same: ~73%.



    "The Mahri language of Southern Arabian is one of the few indigenous, non-Arabic languages remaining on the Arabian Peninsula, and since Mahri is a non-written language, poetry in the Mahri language is a strictly oral art form." https://asuevents.asu.edu/content/in...loration-mahri
    I don't know if someone of you guys have been to Arab Gulf countries(UAE etc.). But both boys look typical Arab(Peninsula) to me. Syrians and Lebanese have a very different look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, indeed. They are also one of those things that bother Afrocentrics so much, because they have little or no African ancestry and yet they are pretty dark-skinned, but with very Caucasoid features... and, you know, the aDNA samples from Egypt show closest genetic affinity to modern Yemenites, including the Mahri people. That, of course, is a big problem for them to tackle, because it suggests that even if Ancient Egyptians were really as brown-skinned as the MALES as portrayed in their ancient artwork, we might be seeing just a Mahri-like people, that wouldn't have to imply any major black indigenous African input that was "diluted" in the last 2,000-2,500 years.

    IMO the Eurasian people that spread herding and cereal harvesting and later cultivation to Northeast Africa and thence to East Africa were much more Natufian-like than Levant_N-like or Levant_BA-like. Indeed, all my models of heavily Eurasian-shifted East Africans pick a lot more (or even solely) Natufian than ANF, CHG or Iran_N.

    Interestingly, some people think the Mahri look South Asian. I don't know, to me they look just like darker-skinned Southwest Asians:







    Funny thing is they're probably African admixed. So true Natufians were probably even more Caucasoid looking and perhaps lighter.

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    To me they look like horners
    And i know there genetic is different from yemenites...

    P.s
    Natufians were dark skin
    And they might showed some african trait
    full lips etc.....
    They were partly y haplogroup E....

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Funny thing is they're probably African admixed. So true Natufians were probably even more Caucasoid looking and perhaps lighter.
    I haven't detected ancient SSA admix in Mahri (apparently neither Ygorcs). I used West and East SSAs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I haven't detected ancient SSA admix in Mahri (apparently neither Ygorcs). I used West and East SSAs.
    I stand corrected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    To me they look like horners
    And i know there genetic is different from yemenites...
    P.s
    Natufians were dark skin
    And they might showed some african trait
    full lips etc.....
    They were partly y haplogroup E....
    I wasn't aware the there was SSA in Natufians. Weren't they entirely ydna E? I associate ydna E with Ancient North Africans who admixed into Natufians and SSA not vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I wasn't aware the there was SSA in Natufians. Weren't they entirely ydna E? I associate ydna E with Ancient North Africans who admixed into Natufians and SSA not vice versa.
    Abstract:
    Yemen is a vast region with substantial cultural and geographic diversity, but we found little genetic structure correlating with geography among the Yemenis – probably reflecting continuous movement of people between the regions. African ancestry from admixture in the past 800 years is widespread in Yemen and is the main contributor to the country’s limited genetic structure, with some individuals in Hudayda and Hadramout having up to 20% of their genetic ancestry from Africa. In contrast, individuals from Maarib appear to have been genetically isolated from the African gene flow and thus have genomes likely to reflect Yemen’s ancestry before the admixture.

    This ancestry was comparable to the ancestry present during the Bronze Age in the distant Northern regions of the Near East.

    After the Bronze Age, the South and North of the Near East therefore followed different genetic trajectories: in the North the Levantines admixed with a Eurasian population carrying steppe ancestry whose impact never reached as far south as the Yemen, where people instead admixed with Africans leading to the genetic structure observed in the Near East today.

    We just dont know how natufians looked
    They might have been more rubst than modern
    Yemenites we saw in those pictures
    In the link to the paper i posted above people should have a look:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/749341v1
    Yememites do have sub -sharan at least most
    Of them except mahra who don't have sub sharan....
    At least thats the model in paper most yemen provinces :
    80% lebanese zidon bronze age+ african

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I wasn't aware the there was SSA in Natufians. Weren't they entirely ydna E? I associate ydna E with Ancient North Africans who admixed into Natufians and SSA not vice versa.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature19310

    Ratchet_Fan: Your are correct, based on the evidence we have to date. See paper linked. I think of the 5 Ancient Natufians, 3 were E1b1 and 2 were CT.

    Here is a direct quote:

    "However, no affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in our genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians (Extended Data Table 1). (We could not test for a link to present-day North Africans, who owe most of their ancestry to back-migration from Eurasia25,26.) "

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Good paper to read
    On autosomal of yemenites
    In different yemen provinces
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/749341v1
    Modern yemenites have significant african admixture 15-20% except one group there....
    But 80% of there total genome can still be modeled as lebanese bronze age
    There's a big difference between the native Yemenites and the non-native and admixed Yemenites. You can even notice that very noticeably in their looks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I haven't detected ancient SSA admix in Mahri (apparently neither Ygorcs). I used West and East SSAs.
    I didn't either, except a minor Ethiopian-like (Pastoral Neolithic East African) admixture in some Yemeni groups...but those may be just some selected samples that had the least African admixture and were thought to represent the pre-admixture indigenous population of the country better.

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    We have some faint idea of how Natufian faces were like because of their interesting practice of making mortuary masks using clay on the face of individuals. Not very realistic, obviously, but much better than the zero material evidence we have for other Mesolithic people:


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    One thing that always catches my attention is that the usual genetic ancestry models for West Eurasians that work really well for most populations of that region, yielding results with less than 2-3% genetic distance, always yield only moderately acceptable results that clearly seem to be missing something in two regions: in Northeastern Europe (Baltic countries, Finland, Russia, Belarus), and in the Arabian peninsula. No model with more ancient DNA samples yields results lower than 4-6%. Are we perhaps missing some unsampled population closely related but not nearly identical to the key samples we already know and use, or are Arabians and Northeastern Europeans simply extremely drifted and derived from a very tiny and bottlenecked ancient population that boomed only in the last few millennia?

    By the way, in my models and also in some admixture graphs I've seen in studies I don't think there is any particularly high similarity between Yemenites and BA Levantines. They have far less ANF and CHG/Iran_N than almost all BA Levantine samples:

    Target Distance Dinka Esan_Nigeria GEO_CHG Hadza IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N KEN_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian MAR_EN RUS_Karelia_HG Simulated_AASI TUR_Barcin_N TZA_Pemba_600BP
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y311 0.06182714 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 25.6 0.0 67.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y312 0.06017755 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 19.6 0.0 72.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.6 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y313 0.04637301 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 26.2 0.0 63.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.2 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y325 0.06031077 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.6 0.0 69.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.4 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y326 0.04599413 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 22.2 0.0 67.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.0 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y330 0.06367498 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.6 0.0 66.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 12.6 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y341 0.06123139 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.2 0.0 71.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 8.4 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y345 0.04496280 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 22.2 0.0 70.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.2 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y349 0.04171710 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 26.4 0.0 66.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3832 0.05151368 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 23.2 0.0 34.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 42.4 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3965 0.04135103 0.0 0.0 10.8 0.0 23.2 0.0 29.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 36.6 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3966 0.03789154 0.0 0.0 8.6 0.0 26.4 0.0 29.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 35.4 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH29 0.04992355 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 31.2 0.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 38.8 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH33 0.05245753 0.0 0.0 1.8 0.0 32.0 0.0 23.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 42.4 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH34 0.03906299 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0 27.6 0.0 19.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 46.4 0.0
    Average 0.05056461 0.0 0.0 1.9 0.0 24.5 0.0 52.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 21.5 0.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    There's a big difference between the native Yemenites and the non-native and admixed Yemenites. You can even notice that very noticeably in their looks.
    Yeah, the paper kingjohn posted confirms the Mahra would have no SSA.

    As for your modeling, I guess I got slightly different results because I used Anatolian Epipaleo rather than Barcin Neo, and also Iran Meso (Hotu) rather than Iran Neo. My goal was isolating Natufian the maximum as possible, and both Barcin N and Iran N may score some Natufian. Especially the former. Doing so (using AHG and Iran Meso), the Natufian-like contribution for Mahra gets higher.
    Last edited by Regio X; 23-07-20 at 13:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    One thing that always catches my attention is that the usual genetic ancestry models for West Eurasians that work really well for most populations of that region, yielding results with less than 2-3% genetic distance, always yield only moderately acceptable results that clearly seem to be missing something in two regions: in Northeastern Europe (Baltic countries, Finland, Russia, Belarus), and in the Arabian peninsula. No model with more ancient DNA samples yields results lower than 4-6%. Are we perhaps missing some unsampled population closely related but not nearly identical to the key samples we already know and use, or are Arabians and Northeastern Europeans simply extremely drifted and derived from a very tiny and bottlenecked ancient population that boomed only in the last few millennia?

    By the way, in my models and also in some admixture graphs I've seen in studies I don't think there is any particularly high similarity between Yemenites and BA Levantines. They have far less ANF and CHG/Iran_N than almost all BA Levantine samples:

    Target Distance Dinka Esan_Nigeria GEO_CHG Hadza IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N KEN_Pastoral_N Levant_Natufian MAR_EN RUS_Karelia_HG Simulated_AASI TUR_Barcin_N TZA_Pemba_600BP
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y311 0.06182714 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 25.6 0.0 67.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y312 0.06017755 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 19.6 0.0 72.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.6 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y313 0.04637301 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 26.2 0.0 63.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.2 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y325 0.06031077 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.6 0.0 69.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.4 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y326 0.04599413 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 22.2 0.0 67.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 10.0 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y330 0.06367498 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.6 0.0 66.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 12.6 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y341 0.06123139 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 20.2 0.0 71.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 8.4 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y345 0.04496280 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 22.2 0.0 70.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.2 0.0
    Yemenite_Mahra:Y349 0.04171710 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 26.4 0.0 66.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3832 0.05151368 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 23.2 0.0 34.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 42.4 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3965 0.04135103 0.0 0.0 10.8 0.0 23.2 0.0 29.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 36.6 0.0
    Levant_Hazor_MLBA:I3966 0.03789154 0.0 0.0 8.6 0.0 26.4 0.0 29.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 35.4 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH29 0.04992355 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 31.2 0.0 30.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 38.8 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH33 0.05245753 0.0 0.0 1.8 0.0 32.0 0.0 23.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 42.4 0.0
    Levant_Ashkelon_LBA:ASH34 0.03906299 0.0 0.0 7.0 0.0 27.6 0.0 19.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 46.4 0.0
    Average 0.05056461 0.0 0.0 1.9 0.0 24.5 0.0 52.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 21.5 0.0
    YGORCS: There was a paper looking at ancient ancient SSA DNA that was published earlier this year and it notes that there are 3,500 Ancient West Eurasian samples vs. only 85 Ancient SSA samples, although as DNA technology gets better, they appear recently to be getting more and more ancient DNA samples from parts of the world where DNA in the past has been hard to sequence.

    Of those 3,500 ancient DNA samples, how many are from what different source populations? Is there any breakdown on say how many ancient Anatolian Neolithic samples vs. how many WHG vs. EHG or how many ancient Iberian samples vs. How many ancient Scandanavian samples, etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    We have some faint idea of how Natufian faces were like because of their interesting practice of making mortuary masks using clay on the face of individuals. Not very realistic, obviously, but much better than the zero material evidence we have for other Mesolithic people:

    Doesn't look "robust" like, as in how the Mesolithic people of Europe looked. On the other hand the climates were completely different, so different selection processes were at work. They also had been sedentary and eating a lot of grain for thousands of years already.

    Looks like long, narrow nose, relatively small mouth, no protruding eye brow ridges, perhaps high cheekbones, wide face with a strong jaw, and oval eyes.

    I think they must have been lovely.

    Wait a minute. Something just occurred to me. Perhaps approximating this face if it were idealized? Egyptians had a lot of Natufian.



    Caveat is this information comes from the internet, but this child is labeled a Maara.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Doesn't look "robust" like, as in how the Mesolithic people of Europe looked. On the other hand the climates were completely different, so different selection processes were at work. They also had been sedentary and eating a lot of grain for thousands of years already.

    Looks like long, narrow nose, relatively small mouth, no protruding eye brow ridges, perhaps high cheekbones, wide face with a strong jaw, and oval eyes.

    I think they must have been lovely.

    Wait a minute. Something just occurred to me. Perhaps approximating this face if it were idealized? Egyptians had a lot of Natufian.



    Caveat is this information comes from the internet, but this child is labeled a Maara.


    i am sorry to destroy the party angela
    but this is not natuffian practice it is later in time
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastered_human_skulls

    in PPNB

    https://blog.britishmuseum.org/facin...jericho-skull/



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaste..._Beisamoun.JPG

  25. #650
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Ah...too bad.

    Still, how much Natufian did Levantine PPNB have?

    Has anyone modeled Yemenis with Levantine PPNB? Is it less than Natufian?

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