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Thread: Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

  1. #651
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for this correction, @kingjohn, though I still think that's the closest we might get to the Natufian look, since PPNB was still about 50-60% Natufian, and those features also look reasonably similar to what we see in Egyptian artworks (a very Natufian-rich people) and some modern Yemeni (though they usually have more "crooked" nose, perhaps a sign of the significant ~20-25% CHG/Iran_N?).

    Angela's interesting observation that Nefertiti's bust has some similarities with that plastered mortuary mask from the PPNB Levant seems really apt for me, because if you apply a slightly higher (0.25x) genetic distance in a G25 model, a move that tends to concentrate more ancestry in the few most proximate sources, ancient Egyptians appear very much Levant_PPNB with significant extra Natufian + Barcin_N added, which is anyway the same main mixture of Levant_PPNB:

    Target Distance | ADC: 0.25x GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N KEN_Early_Pastoral_N KEN_IA_Deloraine Levant_Natufian Levant_PPNB TUR_Barcin_N
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-43 0.02983590 9.6 8.0 5.4 0.0 10.0 67.0 0.0
    Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian:SFI-44 0.03260384 11.0 10.0 5.8 0.0 0.0 59.8 13.4
    EGY_Hellenistic:JK2888 0.04759368 2.8 12.2 4.4 0.0 4.4 68.4 7.8
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2134 0.03785227 11.2 2.4 5.0 0.0 0.0 78.0 3.4
    EGY_Late_Period:JK2911 0.02807013 8.2 10.6 0.0 0.2 8.8 72.2 0.0
    Average 0.03519116 8.6 8.6 4.1 0.0 4.6 69.1 4.9

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    This is what I get modeling Yemenite Mahra.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm glad this thread has been put into the spotlight, to help repudiate the sophistry being posted on Anthrogenica.



    Yemenite Jews look a lot like Ancient Egyptians, in terms of admixture rate, as do some Saudis.

    I think it is interesting that Western Jews are probably closer to the admixture of Greek-like Sea Peoples invaders, and Bronze Age Canaanites, that would become of the Philistines after the conquest of the Levant. However, without the 15%-25% Slavic ancestry that is in Ashkenazim.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 24-07-20 at 04:16.

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    Can you help me understand this right? I have also been following the more than Afro-centric threads involving this topic on Anthrogenica, and there are a few things I was wondering if you could help me understand right. So as far as the Ancient Egyptian samples go, some Anthrogenica users posted genetiker admixture graphs showing minor SSA admixture, while the graphs displayed above, show no such admixture. Also shouldn’t the Yoruba have some sort of Natufian-related admixture? Or were they not as effected by the Mesolithic-Neolithic Eurasian back migrations as other SSA populations were? I thought Yoruba possessed either Basal Eurasian-like or Para-Eurasian/ANA/Iberomaurusian-like admixture? Wouldn’t those components then show up in the admixture graph you have linked? Thanks again for starting this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Can you help me understand this right? I have also been following the more than Afro-centric threads involving this topic on Anthrogenica, and there are a few things I was wondering if you could help me understand right. So as far as the Ancient Egyptian samples go, some Anthrogenica users posted genetiker admixture graphs showing minor SSA admixture, while the graphs displayed above, show no such admixture. Also shouldn’t the Yoruba have some sort of Natufian-related admixture? Or were they not as effected by the Mesolithic-Neolithic Eurasian back migrations as other SSA populations were? I thought Yoruba possessed either Basal Eurasian-like or Para-Eurasian/ANA/Iberomaurusian-like admixture? Wouldn’t those components then show up in the admixture graph you have linked? Thanks again for starting this thread.
    I believe it pretty much depends on the reference chosen for Yoruba in that study, and apparently it's modern.

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    Do know what reference it would have been? I am surprised Yoruba wouldn’t have some kind of Eurasian or Para-Eurasian/ANA component in the admixture graph

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Do know what reference it would have been? I am surprised Yoruba wouldn’t have some kind of Eurasian or Para-Eurasian/ANA component in the admixture graph
    Well, I don't know the study, but if this Yoruba is modern, as I think it is, then it could be a mere case of redundancy, in which modern Yoruba would logically prefer modern Yoruba over other pops, since they're the reference for themselves. :)
    That said, Yoruba does have some Eurasian ancestry, as evidenced by Lazaridis et al. It would be something around 5% of WHG-related ancestry, via Dzudzuana, in turn via ~13% of Taforalt-related ancestry. This finding is reinforced by the fact Yoruba also has a bit of Neandertal ancestry.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    Lazaridis et al. also used modern Yoruba (bold always mine):
    "We sought to determine the direction of admixture without a priori assumptions by forming the following set, which includes All plus a ~2,000BP hunter-gatherer from South Africa20, a ~4,500 year old sample from East Africa (Mota), Yoruba (from present-day West Africa where no ancient genomic data is available), Taforalt and Natufians:"

    But they would have worked data differently, and they corrected a previous finding of SSA supposedly contributing to Taforalt:
    "The study of the Ibero-Maurusian remains from Taforalt was initially interpreted as suggesting that this population was formed by admixture between Natufians and a Sub-Saharan population15. However, the admixture graph model suggests the opposite scenario: that Natufians were formed by admixture from a Taforalt-related population and a Dzudzuana-related one."

    Also:
    "The results of our analysis using the All set, as well as the results of the analysis of ref.15 do suggest that Taforalt can be modeled as a mixture of a West Eurasian related population (represented by Dzudzuana in our case) and a Sub-Saharan African lineage. However, when one uses only a single African population as a source without using others as outgroups, this mixture can only be interpreted as evidence of ancestry from a lineage basal to members of the All set, rather than as evidence of ancestry specifically related to the chosen African population. No Sub-Saharan African populations appear to be good sources for the ancestry of Taforalt as described previously. The admixture graph model suggests an alternative possibility: that it is West African populations like the Yoruba that may have ancestry from a North African Taforalt-like population. Under such a scenario, North Africa and the Levant were occupied by populations that experienced gene flow from each other, with more ancestry from a Basal lineage in North Africa, and more ancestry from a West Eurasian-specific lineage (represented by Dzudzuana) in the Levant, thus explaining the presence of Dzudzuana-related admixture in Taforalt and of Taforalt-related admixture in the Levant. Under this scenario, a North African-related population may have contributed some ancestry to Sub-Saharan populations to its south, perhaps during the Holocene Green Sahara period (~11-6kya)22 that postdates the sampled Taforalt individual which may have facilitated north→south gene flow across the Sahara."

    Fortunately, we already have now two 8k years old samples from Cameroon.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-1929-1
    I don't know when this flow South of Taforalt-related ancestry started, but modern Yoruba do score some Taforalt in G25, in a model using as sources these two ancient SSA and also Taforalt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Well, I don't know the study, but if this Yoruba is modern, as I think it is, then it could be a mere case of redundancy, in which modern Yoruba would logically prefer modern Yoruba over other pops, since they're the reference for themselves. :)
    That said, Yoruba does have some Eurasian ancestry, as evidenced by Lazaridis et al. It would be something around 5% of WHG-related ancestry, via Dzudzuana, in turn via ~13% of Taforalt-related ancestry. This finding is reinforced by the fact Yoruba also has a bit of Neandertal ancestry.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    Lazaridis et al. also used modern Yoruba (bold always mine):
    "We sought to determine the direction of admixture without a priori assumptions by forming the following set, which includes All plus a ~2,000BP hunter-gatherer from South Africa20, a ~4,500 year old sample from East Africa (Mota), Yoruba (from present-day West Africa where no ancient genomic data is available), Taforalt and Natufians:"

    But they would have worked data differently, and they corrected a previous finding of SSA supposedly contributing to Taforalt:
    "The study of the Ibero-Maurusian remains from Taforalt was initially interpreted as suggesting that this population was formed by admixture between Natufians and a Sub-Saharan population15. However, the admixture graph model suggests the opposite scenario: that Natufians were formed by admixture from a Taforalt-related population and a Dzudzuana-related one."

    Also:
    "The results of our analysis using the All set, as well as the results of the analysis of ref.15 do suggest that Taforalt can be modeled as a mixture of a West Eurasian related population (represented by Dzudzuana in our case) and a Sub-Saharan African lineage. However, when one uses only a single African population as a source without using others as outgroups, this mixture can only be interpreted as evidence of ancestry from a lineage basal to members of the All set, rather than as evidence of ancestry specifically related to the chosen African population. No Sub-Saharan African populations appear to be good sources for the ancestry of Taforalt as described previously. The admixture graph model suggests an alternative possibility: that it is West African populations like the Yoruba that may have ancestry from a North African Taforalt-like population. Under such a scenario, North Africa and the Levant were occupied by populations that experienced gene flow from each other, with more ancestry from a Basal lineage in North Africa, and more ancestry from a West Eurasian-specific lineage (represented by Dzudzuana) in the Levant, thus explaining the presence of Dzudzuana-related admixture in Taforalt and of Taforalt-related admixture in the Levant. Under this scenario, a North African-related population may have contributed some ancestry to Sub-Saharan populations to its south, perhaps during the Holocene Green Sahara period (~11-6kya)22 that postdates the sampled Taforalt individual which may have facilitated north→south gene flow across the Sahara."

    Fortunately, we already have now two 8k years old samples from Cameroon.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-1929-1
    I don't know when this flow South of Taforalt-related ancestry started, but modern Yoruba do score some Taforalt in G25, in a model using as sources these two ancient SSA and also Taforalt.
    Excellent post Regio, thanks.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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