Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

As an aside, were you one of the "modelers" who was so sure there was a migration from Anatolia to Tuscany a la Herodotus. I think that's important to know. If you went for a job as a population geneticist they'd sure want to know if you were right or wrong about that.

Incidentally I didn't at all think the Etruscans came from Anatolia, nor did I put much credit at all on Herodotus' accounts (not just that one). One of the first reasons was precisely that closer "Anatolian" links were found mostly in Sicily and South Italy, so it didn't make sense.
 
Did you also take a look at the Sicily_MN and other Italian Neolithic samples? Both hypotheses are plausible, but it is far more likely that you simply had Barcin_N-like people with a little WHG arriving first just like almost everywhere else in Europe and simply getting gene flow from CHG/Iran-enriched and even later more CHG/Iran-enched as well as, now, also Levant_N-enriched people over time. Layers of admixture upon earlier layers of admixture. Or do you think two clearly distinct populations settling Europe in the Early Neolithic and living concurrently but with little or no admixture with each other and also with any foreigners up to the Bronze Age is really more realistic?

Well, the problem is the mixing and matching, Dodecad 12B has the Sicilian samples, along with the Roman, but doesn't have all the Anatolian sources, as I noted, just the Barcin and Kumtepe. Eurogenes K13 has the ancient Roman samples, not the Sicilians, but has the Tepecik Samples, and the only Barcin is this later one, Chalcolithic_Age_Anatolian_Barcinhoyuk_Turkey_3943_BC, best I can tell.

But it might be 2 similar groups from Anatolia arrived earlier close together in maybe different waves, one more Barcin like and more Tepecik or Kumptepe like. Did you ever go over the pre-print paper by Vandeloosdrecht et al 2020 with these New Mesolithic and Neolithic samples from the archaeological park near San Vito Lopo, Trapani, Sicilia, the Grotta Del Uzzo site. Some Iran Neo seemed to be showing up well before the period you are talking about, in fact, during the Neolithic period, which as you know, was also picked up by Antonio et al 2019 in the Neolithic Lazio Samples.

I need to go back but some of those Neolithic samples from the Grotta Del Uzzo site had some Iran_Neo showing up in them. What I don't remember is what was the best proxy for Anatolian Neolithic EEF type ancestry.

But with respect to the Roman and Sicilian samples, there is no vahaduo calculator that has all the MLBA Sicilians and Neolithic Romans together along with all of those sources used for Anatolian Neolithic. I think you are correct in what you are suggesting, if I had all of those samples in either Dodecad12B, or Eurogenes K13, or both, I would do the model estimations like you suggest. As it is now, I feel like I am robbing Saint Peter to Pay Saint Paul, and vice versa.
 
"It is in all Europeans" - so what? Are you really thinking we're discussing the degree of "Europeanness" of South Italians here? Oh, please... I think you people really need to get past your traumatic experiences with racists.

How freaking dare you?

You'd better man up and learn how to take criticism of your work without getting hysterical and playing the race card and insulting everyone who disagrees with you.

Go cool off or I'll do it for you.
 
I am getting really sick of your virtue signalling and your snide comments about the people here, virtually saying that anyone who disagrees with your analysis is a racist.

Sorry, but I will not refrain from comments that I only wrote BECAUSE other people (mainly Jovialis to be more specific, though I have nothing personal against him) were using very obvious innuendo or even more direct language to imply I am the one who is racist and is unhealthily interested in proving Levantine ancestry in South Italians for some racist or xenophobic purpose, or even because I just want people to be "mixed" (as if I need to want that: everyone is, admixture events just happened more recently or long ago). It's intriguing that you seem to have skipped those comments and only read the replies that I wrote to those very comments.

I don't give a damn if there's 10% or 20% or more Levant like ancestry in Southern Italians/Sicilians. My main point has always been that I think there's a strong possibility that however much there is it started arriving pretty early, perhaps in the Neolithic, certainly by the Chalcolithic and then in the Bronze.

No comment of mine was directed to you nor to your hypothesis, which are far more plausible than simply denying the signal exists in any non-negligible proportions. So I don't really understand why you're angry about comments and disagreements that have nothing to do with your own personal take on the matter.

It's the last time I'm going to warn you.

Okay, no problem. I think this thread is already becoming too long, and basically no new idea is being exposed now, just repeated in different words. I just find it completely unfair that this is the second time you warn me, but you apparently understand you have nothing to say about all the comments that insinuated I have some evil "agenda" and an "obsession" with South Italians (yeah, of course, I am soooooooo much of a Nordicist or something, and I write sooooo much about Italians here in Eupedia since I first wrote here years ago). But I'm fine with it, you're totally entitled to it just like any other moderator. I don't need external reinforcements to be able to see what I can see. ;)
 
How freaking dare you?

Go cool off or I'll do it for you.

Okay, Angela. Granted. ;) I'm not interested in having to keep replying to totally unfair suggestions that somehow I'm implying something about South Italians that never even crossed my mind.
Good night!
 
This thread is temporarily closed until Ygorcs regains his composure and his civility.
 
@Ygorcs,

Why is it that these west Asians can be models with NorthAfrica1, if it doesn't have something of significance with Levant ancestry?

WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00678
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00679
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00682
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00683
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00685
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00687
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00688
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00689
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00690
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00691
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00693
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00694
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00696
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00697
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00699
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00722
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00723
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00724
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00725
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00726
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00727
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00729
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00730
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00731
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00732
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00733
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00734
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00735
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00736
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00737
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00739
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00740
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00745
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00746
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00675
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00676
WAsia1PalestinianHGDP00677
WAsia2DruzeHGDP00579
WAsia2Iranianiran6
WAsia2Iranianiran9
WAsia2JordanianJordan503
WAsia2Lebanese118
WAsia2Lebanese820
WAsia2Lebanese879
WAsia2Lebanese912
WAsia2Lebanese922
WAsia2Lebanese926
WAsia2Lebanese977
WAsia2Lebanese997
WAsia2Lebanese1021
WAsia2Lebanese1078
WAsia2Lebanese1086
WAsia2Lebanese1110
WAsia2Lebanese1127
WAsia2Lebanese1131
WAsia2Lebanese1148
WAsia2Lebanese312
WAsia2Lebanese1203
WAsia2Lebanese1223
WAsia2Lebanese1226
WAsia2Lebanese1315
WAsia2Lebanese1338
WAsia2Lebanese1353
WAsia2Lebanese1356
WAsia2Lebanese501
WAsia2Lebanese1379
WAsia2Lebanese1473
WAsia2Lebanese1555
WAsia2Lebanese1590
WAsia2Lebanese1592
WAsia2Lebanese1631
WAsia2Lebanese1634
WAsia2Lebanese1692
WAsia2Lebanese1698
WAsia2Lebanese1762
WAsia2Lebanese1788
WAsia2Lebanese645
WAsia2Lebanese1801
WAsia2Lebanese1832
WAsia2Lebanese1840
WAsia2Lebanese1860
WAsia2Lebanese1877
WAsia2Lebanese1902
WAsia2Lebanese1934
WAsia2Lebanese657
WAsia2Lebanese1949
WAsia2Lebanese1979
WAsia2Lebanese1986
WAsia2Lebanese2306
WAsia2LebaneseLebanon2
WAsia2LebaneseLebanon3
WAsia2LebaneseLebanon7
WAsia2LebaneseLebanon8
WAsia2Lebanese710
WAsia2Lebanese716
WAsia2PalestinianGRC12118083
WAsia2PalestinianGRC12118084
WAsia2PalestinianGRC12118110
WAsia2PalestinianGRC12118127
WAsia2SamaritianSamaritian983
WAsia2SamaritianSamaritian990
WAsia2SaudiSaudiA7
WAsia2Syriansyria10
WAsia2Syriansyria298
WAsia2Syriansyria485
WAsia2Syriansyria2
WAsia2Syriansyria4
WAsia2Syriansyria5
WAsia2Syriansyria9
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00557
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00566
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00567
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00569
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00571
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00572
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00573
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00574
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00575
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00577
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00558
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00578
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00580
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00581
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00582
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00583
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00584
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00586
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00587
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00588
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00559
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00590
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00591
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00594
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00595
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00597
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00598
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00599
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00600
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00601
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00602
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00560
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00604
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00606
WAsia3DruzeGRC12118093
WAsia3DruzeGRC12118099
WAsia3DruzeGRC12118105
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00561
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00562
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00563
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00564
WAsia3DruzeHGDP00565
WAsia3Lebanese799
WAsia3Lebanese927
WAsia3Lebanese971
WAsia3Lebanese981
WAsia3Lebanese252
WAsia3Lebanese1056
WAsia3Lebanese1153
WAsia3Lebanese1247
WAsia3Lebanese1271
WAsia3Lebanese1321
WAsia3Lebanese1373
WAsia3Lebanese1392
WAsia3Lebanese1422
WAsia3Lebanese1425
WAsia3Lebanese1515
WAsia3Lebanese1575
WAsia3Lebanese555
WAsia3Lebanese1661
WAsia3Lebanese1715
WAsia3Lebanese1730
WAsia3Lebanese1838
WAsia3Lebanese1901
WAsia3Lebanese1920
WAsia3Lebanese2284
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00619
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00622
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00625
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00626
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00628
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00629
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00635
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00637
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00609
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00642
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00644
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00645
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00647
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00654
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00613
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00614
WAsia4BedouinHGDP00615
WAsia4DruzeHGDP00576
WAsia4GeorgianJewGeorgJew125
WAsia4Iranianiran13
WAsia4JordanianJordan62
WAsia4JordanianJordan445
WAsia4JordanianJordan485
WAsia4JordanianJordan502
WAsia4JordanianJordan543
WAsia4JordanianJordan546
WAsia4JordanianJordan560
WAsia4JordanianJordan563
WAsia4JordanianJordan603
WAsia4JordanianJordan608
WAsia4JordanianJordan214
WAsia4JordanianJordan646
WAsia4JordanianJordan305
WAsia4JordanianJordan307
WAsia4JordanianJordan382
WAsia4JordanianJordan384
WAsia4JordanianJordan387
WAsia4JordanianJordan426
WAsia4LebaneseLebanon4
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00680
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00684
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00686
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00698
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00700
WAsia4PalestinianGRC12118120
WAsia4PalestinianHGDP00741
WAsia4PalestinianGRC12118126
WAsia4Saudisaudi1436
WAsia4SaudiSaudiA6
WAsia4SaudiSaudiA9
WAsia4Saudisaudi1411
WAsia4Syriansyria461
WAsia4Syriansyria464
WAsia4Syriansyria520
WAsia4Syriansyria3
WAsia4Syriansyria6
WAsia4Syriansyria7
WAsia4Syriansyria8
WAsia4EmiratiUAE2
WAsia4EmiratiUAE7
WAsia4YemeniYemen9
WAsia4YemeniYemen10
WAsia4YemenJewGRC12118086
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_7
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_8
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_9
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_10
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_11
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_12
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_13
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_14
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_15
WAsia4YemenJewGRC12118087
WAsia4YemenJewGRC12118095
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_1
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_2
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_3
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_4
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_5
WAsia4YemenJewYemen_Jew_6
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00607
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00616
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00618
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00623
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00624
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00608
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00627
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00630
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00631
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00636
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00639
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00641
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00643
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00610
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00648
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00649
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00650
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00651
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00653
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00701
WAsia5BedouinHGDP00612
WAsia5Saudisaudi1403
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA1
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA3
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA4
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA5
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA8
WAsia5SaudiSaudiA10
WAsia5Saudisaudi1413
WAsia5Saudisaudi1424
WAsia5Saudisaudi1426
WAsia5Saudisaudi1428b
WAsia5Saudisaudi1430
WAsia5Saudisaudi1432
WAsia5Saudisaudi1434
WAsia5EmiratiUAE10
WAsia5EmiratiUAE111
WAsia5EmiratiUAE127
WAsia5EmiratiUAE4
WAsia5EmiratiUAE6
WAsia6IranianJewGRC12118101
WAsia6IranianJewiran_jew3
WAsia6IranianJewiran_jew4
WAsia6IranianJewGRC12118121
WAsia6IranianJewIranJew1409
WAsia6IranianJewIranJew1425
WAsia6IranianJewIranJew1557
WAsia6IranianJewIranJew4485
WAsia6IranianJewIranJew4685
WAsia6IranianJewiran_jew1
WAsia6IranianJewiran_jew2
WAsia6IraqiJewGRC12118082
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew8
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew9
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew10
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew11
WAsia6IraqiJewGRC12118102
WAsia6IraqiJewGRC12118129
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew1
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew2
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew4
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew5
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew6
WAsia6IraqiJewiraq_jew7
WAsia6KurdishJewGRC12118100
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew856
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew1551
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew1592
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew1824
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew4573
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew4633
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew4663
WAsia6KurdishJewKurdJew4689
WAsia7IT-UCTR_NIG_297318
WAsia7TajikTJ0197_tadjik_yag
WAsia7TajikTJ1095_tadjik_yag
WAsia7TajikTJ1101_tadjik_yag
WAsia7TajikTJ1102_yagnobi
WAsia7TajikTJ1110_tadjik_yag
WAsia7TajikTJ1176_tadjik_yag
WAsia7Turkish 18419
WAsia7Turkish 18483
WAsia7Turkish 18587
WAsia7Turkish 18596
WAsia7Turkish 18636
WAsia7Turkish 18784
WAsia7Turkish 18873
WAsia7Turkish 24763
WAsia7Turkish 18112
WAsia7Turkish 24783
WAsia7Turkish 17778
WAsia7Turkish 19708
WAsia7Turkish 19819
WAsia7Turkish 18116
WAsia7Turkish 19854
WAsia7Turkish 19881
WAsia7Turkish tur124
WAsia7Turkish 18311
WAsia7Turkish 18314
WAsia7Turkish 18404
WAsia8Armenianarm14
WAsia8Armenianarm7
WAsia8BulgarianBulgarian13
WAsia8Kayseri23469
WAsia8Kayseri23748
WAsia8Turkish 15781
WAsia8Turkish 20030
WAsia8Turkish 25095
WAsia8Turkish 18122
 
This thread is temporarily closed until Ygorcs regains his composure and his civility. When it reopens I expect no more of these PERSONAL ATTACKS.
 
North African populations are indeed formative to Levantine ones. Natufians were formed out of Ancestral North Africans Mixing with Dzudzurna in the Levant. Even 23andme lists the southern part of the middle east as North African like. It is the major discernable difference for Jewish, and West Asian populations compared to European ones with ABA in Raveane et al 2019 (NorthAfrica1). It is a fact that North African-like admixture exists in these populations, which is not detectable in every South Italian cohort, or other Southern European populations with ABA (I2683). Ergo, given the history of the Caliphate in Sicily, I think it is more likely that this ancestry arrived with the Moors, that had a more significant impact with them. Rather than arriving much earlier in formative Italian populations, by any significant degree.:


NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF1
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF40
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF63
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF64
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF66
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF68
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF75
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF79
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF80
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF86
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF87
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF2
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF89
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF100
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF101
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF105
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF201
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF206
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF209
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF221
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF243
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF244
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF8
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF246
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF256
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF271
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF274
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF314
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF325
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF328
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF331
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF332
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF333
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF9
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF334
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF335
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF337
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF346
NAfrica1MoroccanFigArF350
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA1
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA3
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA18
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA19
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA20
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF15
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA21
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA22
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA24
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA27
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA29
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA46
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA47
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA50
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA56
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA62
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF18
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA75
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA88
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA107
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA113
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA136
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA137
NAfrica1MoroccanFigAsnA143
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF19
NAfrica1MoroccanMoroccan2
NAfrica1MoroccanMoroccan7
NAfrica1MoroccanMoroccan9
NAfrica1MoroccanMoroccan10
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF23
NAfrica1MoroccanMoroccan12
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoA57
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoA62
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoA98
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoB17
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoB93
NAfrica1MoroccanFigBerF35
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoC60
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoE21
NAfrica1MoroccanmoroccoE28
NAfrica1MozabiteHGDP01273
NAfrica1TunisianTUN510
NAfrica1TunisianTunisian10
NAfrica1TunisianTunisian2
NAfrica1TunisianTunisian5
NAfrica1TunisianTunisian6
NAfrica1TunisianTunisian9
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan1
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan3
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan4
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan5
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan6
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan8
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan11
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan13
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan14
NAfrica2MoroccanMoroccan15
NAfrica2TunisianTunisian11
NAfrica2TunisianTunisian12
NAfrica2TunisianTunisian1
NAfrica2TunisianTunisian4
NAfrica2TunisianTunisian8
Nafrica3JordanianJordan444
Nafrica3MoroccanFigAsnA63
Nafrica3MoroccanFigAsnA94
Nafrica3MoroccanmoroccoA121
Nafrica3MoroccanmoroccoC61
Nafrica3MozabiteHGDP01271
Nafrica3MozabiteHGDP01261
Nafrica3YemeniYemen1
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01253
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01262
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01263
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01264
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01265
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01266
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01267
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01268
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01269
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01254
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01272
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01274
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01275
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01276
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01277
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01278
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01279
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01280
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01282
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01255
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01256
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01257
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01258
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01259
NAfrica4MozabiteHGDP01260
NAfrica6BalochiHGDP00076
NAfrica6BalochiHGDP00057
NAfrica6BalochiHGDP00060
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00620
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00632
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00634
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00638
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00640
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00646
NAfrica6BedouinHGDP00611
NAfrica6BrahuiHGDP00029
NAfrica6BrahuiHGDP00013
NAfrica6Egyptian286270_G11_SC_EGYPTLC5515121
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_G02_SC_EGYPTLC5515163
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_H01_SC_EGYPTLC5515147
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_H02_SC_EGYPTLC5515164
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt1
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt2
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt3
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt4
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt5
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt6
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt7
NAfrica6Egyptian286270_H08_SC_EGYPTLC5515083
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt8
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt9
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt10
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt11
NAfrica6EgyptianEgypt12
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_C03_SC_EGYPTLC5515174
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_D01_SC_EGYPTLC5515140
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_D03_SC_EGYPTLC5515175
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_E01_SC_EGYPTLC5515141
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_E03_SC_EGYPTLC5515176
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_F01_SC_EGYPTLC5515142
NAfrica6Egyptian286271_F02_SC_EGYPTLC5515160
NAfrica6EthiopianEthiopiaAm78
NAfrica6Iranianiran1
NAfrica6Iranianiran7
NAfrica6MakraniHGDP00130
NAfrica6MakraniHGDP00150
NAfrica6MakraniHGDP00139
NAfrica6PalestinianHGDP00692
NAfrica6PalestinianHGDP00738
NAfrica6PalestinianHGDP00744
NAfrica6SaudiSaudiA2
NAfrica6TunisianTunisian7
NAfrica6EmiratiUAE1
NAfrica6EmiratiUAE125
NAfrica6EmiratiUAE5
NAfrica6EmiratiUAE8
NAfrica6EmiratiUAE9
NAfrica6YemeniYemen4
NAfrica6YemeniYemen5
NAfrica6YemeniYemen6
NAfrica6YemeniYemen7
NAfrica6YemeniYemen8

X5FQhf9.jpg



vl8tToO.png

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/08/30/5.9.eaaw3492.DC1

Ergo, ABA+North African = Levant

Why else would it exist in such large amounts in the middle east, by 1/3rd?

Then if that's how you say it indeed, I guess this model you're relying on is mainly picking up very early and most divergent admixtures, not more "recent" clusters like even Natufian, though by "recent" I mean Epipaleolithic. After all, even Natufians back then were less than 30% Taforalt-related, let alone by the Levant_N. In other words, this is a very basal and heavily diluted admixture, not even minimally proximate. Probably it's only being picked in Sicily and a bit in parts of South Italy because those are the only regions with more Natufian+Taforalt. But that would be a very significant underestimation of the actual genetic contribution from post-Neolithic populations with Levantine and North African affinities, considering that Natufian itself was admixed, and Levant_N and North Africa_CA were quite diluted in Natufian/Taforalt admixture.
 
Ailchu;608387[QUOTE said:
so it's as i said a geographical group? then you can not be more or less european you are just european no matter what kind of ancestry you have.

All Europeans from North to south share the same 3 ancestral groups, albeit in different proportion. So being European is not only a geographical term. Which part of that didn't you understand?


why should i be putting words in your mouth? you didn't just bring this example for no reason right? you think europeanness is defined by a genetic connection. the genetic connection you mentioned is the central european beaker ancestry from romans. accoridng to this you can be indeed genetically more or less european. if you think i'm putting words in your mouth then maybe you should be more clear and say what you mean.


ok, so you think non-whites, who identify as english can never be really english. why do you focus on non-whites? with other whites it's suddendly different or what? i mean, you just don't make sense even looking at it from your own standpoint, wouldn't the "original english" just be "ethnic english" instead of "white"? besides who is white and who isn't? where does you europeanness, start and were does it end? is it based on geographic definitions maybe? you still failed to be clear.


I‘m very clear it’s you who is playing semantics and deflects with pseudo-intellectual and philosophical talk and by asking counter questions. Ethnic English are and were without a question/doubt white, European and not black, Indian, Pakistani nor Chinese, etc. I can get clearer than that. Besides, why are you triggered by the fact that the original English were white? Why are you bothered by their whiteness? Being original English and white are not two separate things but go hand in hand. On the contrary being black/African and original English is an oxymoron and mutually exclusive. There is no original ethnicity without its own genetics, phenotype or skin tone, to begin with. Again what’s wrong with the original English being white? Why can‘t you bring yourself to state that they were white, Euros? I took non-white Brits as an example because you've said they are as English as the white native ones. Plus I haven't seen or met Brits of Russian, French or Italian origin who claim Russians, French or Italians are as English as the ethnic English as some black ones do. In addition to that a white person like an Irish, German is genetically speaking big time closer related to an ethnic English than an Afro- or Indo-English is.

Since you haven't figure out who is white or who's not. Does it mean you reject the notion of "white privilege" or "white supremacy"?

Does it mean you can't really see or say whose of these two English men, is black or white?

22--saenger-postet-foto-von-sich-und-sohn-henry---2-3---spoton-article-743236.jpg


b1ebdd11430a07cab5be44b2c7f562eb.jpg

Hold on. I can help you out. The first one is black and of Nigerian origin and the second one, is ethnic English aka white. However, let me ask you that. Can an ethnic Dinka or Bantu, be white and European? Are white Americans as native to America as the Cherokee, Sioux? Is a Boer as native to South Africa as a San or a Zulu? Can a white person in South Africa claim to be as San or Zulu as the original ones. Please answer my questions without resorting in asking counter questions. If you pretend that you can‘t tell a Nigerian Brit from a white English or that you can't distinguish between black and white people then you are not fit nor qualified for talking about physical anthropology. Sorry.




i can tell you all foreigners from everywhere including the european ones often have their own subcultures in their hostcountries. of course there are the extreme cases but those are not the ones i am talking about. i wonder are muslim albanians not european for you?



The thing is that I debunked your claim that for instance, black or Indio- Pakistani- Brits, etc. are merely English or as English as the native ones. Now you're deflecting by talking about foreigners. I was not talking about very recent migrants nor about foreigners only but about so-called black or Indo-Brits, etc. who live for generations in Britain too and identify as English. They're not only genetically distinct from the white English but also culturally. The non-white English/Brits have their own flavour so to speak. Plus white Europeans like let's say Germans, French or Norwegians who migrate to Britain for good are more willing and easier to integrate since they are culturally more similar to the host population than non-whites from a third-world country. My point is that a black person can identify as English, no problem, but he can't claim to be as English as an ethnic English. Plus I find it absurd when liberals accuse people of racism when they want or produce historical accurate movies or even docus by portraying Anglo-Saxons or Celts by all white actors.









 
Point of order, please.

Enough of this debate as to who is an ethnic European versus a cultural one. For one thing it's completely off topic.

We're supposed to be talking about the genetic and cultural differences between Jews and Greeks, although all anyone seems to want to talk about, as ever, are Southern Italians and Sicilians.

I've allowed that, but this other discussion is off topic. Find another more appropriate thread.
 
8pIQEQl.png


Here is another interesting map regarding I2683. Top 30 samples from 5000 BC - 2050 BC (the date of the
I2683
sample)

There is some overlap with Peqi'in ChL, because they were partly descended from the blue-eyed migrants from Anatolia/Iran.

The material culture of the Late Chalcolithic period in the southern Levant (4500–3900/3800 BCE) is qualitatively distinct from previous and subsequent periods. Here, to test the hypothesis that the advent and decline of this culture was influenced by movements of people, we generated genome-wide ancient DNA from 22 individuals from Peqi’in Cave, Israel. These individuals were part of a homogeneous population that can be modeled as deriving ~57% of its ancestry from groups related to those of the local Levant Neolithic, ~17% from groups related to those of the Iran Chalcolithic, and ~26% from groups related to those of the Anatolian Neolithic. The Peqi’in population also appears to have contributed differently to later Bronze Age groups, one of which we show cannot plausibly have descended from the same population as that of Peqi’in Cave. These results provide an example of how population movements propelled cultural changes in the deep past.


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-05649-9

FYI the Azerbaijan sample is clearly placed in the wrong spot.
 
Coming to think about it all, I think you guys have already convinced me in persuasive and strong enough words about the fact that amateur tools and hobbyists' interpretations of imperfect tools used by them are totally dismissable when you have the words of actual professional geneticists who certainly understand those samples and tools, as well as complex statistics much better, and surely try all the hypothetical ancestral models that could at least be plausible before deciding the one that has the best fits and is the most parsimonious and credible explanation for the genetic structure that they're seeing in the samples. Since we can think of these models, choose the most likely source samples and try several distinct models before deciding which is the best, professional geneticists can and certainly do that even much better and more intensely.

Therefore, I was a bit frustrated that the recent genetic papers on Italian aDNA samples seem to have lacked a comparison of the models used for the aDNA amples with samples from the modern populations in the same region, but apparently I hadn't read it all, and I'm glad to say that that had in fact been done by Fernandes et al. (including such luminaries of population genetics such as Olalde, Lazaridis, Reich etc.) in the very recent 2020 study on Neolithic and BA Sicilian and Neolithic/Chalcolithic/BA/IA Sardinian aDNA samples. It's only in the supplementary material, page 29 (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites..._NatEcolEvol_WestMediterranean_Supplement.pdf).
Image of the models: https://imgur.com/a/kjWn0tu.

Later in the supplement the authors assert that:
"The two Middle Bronze Age Sicilian individuals can only be fit parsimoniously with the modelrequiring Iranian-related ancestry (15.7 ± 2.6%, p=0.060) while the model that used onlyYamnaya_Samara ancestry as a source does not fit (p=2.21E-04) (Supplementary Table 14).
In Late Bronze Age Sicily at the site of Marcita, our qpAdm models required only the presenceof Anatolia_Neolithic (81.5 ± 1.8%), WHG (5.9 ± 1.6%), and Yamnaya_Samara (12.7 ± 2.1%).
We were able to model modern Sicilians with a 4-way model that included 23.2 ± 4.2%Anatolia_Neolithic, 19.9 ± 1.4% Yamnaya_Samara, 10.0 ± 2.6% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic, and 46.9± 5.6% Morocco_LN (p=0.522) (Supplementary Table 14)."


Therefore, it seems that, according to the very renowned Reich's lab, all my amateurish models pointing generally to a high genetic continuity plus 5-12% Levant_N (using Barcin_N) or 2-8% (using a pool of all Anatolia_N samples) + a bit extra Steppe_EMBA + 2-3% Morocco_EN for Sicilians were indeed totally incorrect, and in fact the picture is very different from what I thought was most plausible and likely an explanation for the current average genetic makeup of Sicilians.

The modern Sicilians, according to those reputable authors, appear to be a completely different population according to the best fit model that they picked to publish (as some Eupedia members stressed before, it's hard to believe they don't use several different combinations of source populations, according to several at least hypothetically realistic scenarios, before determining which makes the best fits). The authors, who know a lot more than us hobbyists and are thus much less likely to commit any basic mistakes (that's also another reason why we should, for example, try to understand why they are using Levant_N to model aDNA Northeastern European BA samples instead of Anatolia_N in the recent Fatyanovo paper, for that is obviously not just a crass mistake that not even amateurs would do), seem to be pointing out a really massive post-BA genetic change in the direction of North Africa, quite on the contrary of what I had thought. It isn't only the large Morocco_LN admixture, the non-North African admixture composition also appears very different from earlier periods, as you can see here: https://imgur.com/a/LWXu2Ye

Professionals always know it better than us all, right? Therefore, until further and much needed archaeogenomic studies on Italian and Aegean aDNA samples are published, I guess we all ought to take it as solid provisional scientific understanding that modern Sicilians are very different from the EBA, MBA and LBA Sicilians and ~50% Berber/North Moroccan-related Morocco_LN, strange though those results may be when we compare them to all the models made using amateur tools and a few previous models made some time ago, with a less developed science of population archaeogenetics.

Thus, I think we should keep this discussion partially on pause mood until more aDNA samples and other professional geneticists' studies are released (I hope sooner rather than later). Science is always a falseable (in the Popper sense) field of knowledge, it has provisional, temporary truths that are much better than the former truths and (hopefully) worse than the future truths.

For now, all we can say, based on what real scientists have found so far, is that Sicilians (maybe also South Italians, since they are closely related) shouldn't be understood as basically ancient (pre-IA) Italians with a bit more Levantine, Iran/CHG and Yamnaya ancestry, but as a more recent population with a very heavy North African input. That's what Reich's lab in a study made by some of the best population geneticists assert, so it must be much more credible than my own explanation, for which I am sorry I have insisted so much on. ;)
 
Coming to think about it all, I think you guys have already convinced me in persuasive and strong enough words about the fact that amateur tools and hobbyists' interpretations of imperfect tools used by them are totally dismissable when you have the words of actual professional geneticists who certainly understand those samples and tools, as well as complex statistics much better, and surely try all the hypothetical ancestral models that could at least be plausible before deciding the one that has the best fits and is the most parsimonious and credible explanation for the genetic structure that they're seeing in the samples. Since we can think of these models, choose the most likely source samples and try several distinct models before deciding which is the best, professional geneticists can and certainly do that even much better and more intensely.

Therefore, I was a bit frustrated that the recent genetic papers on Italian aDNA samples seem to have lacked a comparison of the models used for the aDNA amples with samples from the modern populations in the same region, but apparently I hadn't read it all, and I'm glad to say that that had in fact been done by Fernandes et al. (including such luminaries of population genetics such as Olalde, Lazaridis, Reich etc.) in the very recent 2020 study on Neolithic and BA Sicilian and Neolithic/Chalcolithic/BA/IA Sardinian aDNA samples. It's only in the supplementary material, page 29 (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites..._NatEcolEvol_WestMediterranean_Supplement.pdf).
Image of the models: https://imgur.com/a/kjWn0tu.

Later in the supplement the authors assert that:
"The two Middle Bronze Age Sicilian individuals can only be fit parsimoniously with the modelrequiring Iranian-related ancestry (15.7 ± 2.6%, p=0.060) while the model that used onlyYamnaya_Samara ancestry as a source does not fit (p=2.21E-04) (Supplementary Table 14).
In Late Bronze Age Sicily at the site of Marcita, our qpAdm models required only the presenceof Anatolia_Neolithic (81.5 ± 1.8%), WHG (5.9 ± 1.6%), and Yamnaya_Samara (12.7 ± 2.1%).
We were able to model modern Sicilians with a 4-way model that included 23.2 ± 4.2%Anatolia_Neolithic, 19.9 ± 1.4% Yamnaya_Samara, 10.0 ± 2.6% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic, and 46.9± 5.6% Morocco_LN (p=0.522) (Supplementary Table 14)."


Therefore, it seems that, according to the very renowned Reich's lab, all my amateurish models pointing generally to a high genetic continuity plus 5-12% Levant_N (using Barcin_N) or 2-8% (using a pool of all Anatolia_N samples) + a bit extra Steppe_EMBA + 2-3% Morocco_EN for Sicilians were indeed totally incorrect, and in fact the picture is very different from what I thought was most plausible and likely an explanation for the current average genetic makeup of Sicilians.

The modern Sicilians, according to those reputable authors, appear to be a completely different population according to the best fit model that they picked to publish (as some Eupedia members stressed before, it's hard to believe they don't use several different combinations of source populations, according to several at least hypothetically realistic scenarios, before determining which makes the best fits). The authors, who know a lot more than us hobbyists and are thus much less likely to commit any basic mistakes (that's also another reason why we should, for example, try to understand why they are using Levant_N to model aDNA Northeastern European BA samples instead of Anatolia_N in the recent Fatyanovo paper, for that is obviously not just a crass mistake that not even amateurs would do), seem to be pointing out a really massive post-BA genetic change in the direction of North Africa, quite on the contrary of what I had thought. It isn't only the large Morocco_LN admixture, the non-North African admixture composition also appears very different from earlier periods, as you can see here: https://imgur.com/a/LWXu2Ye

Professionals always know it better than us all, right? Therefore, until further and much needed archaeogenomic studies on Italian and Aegean aDNA samples are published, I guess we all ought to take it as solid provisional scientific understanding that modern Sicilians are very different from the EBA, MBA and LBA Sicilians and ~50% Berber/North Moroccan-related Morocco_LN, strange though those results may be when we compare them to all the models made using amateur tools and a few previous models made some time ago, with a less developed science of population archaeogenetics.

Thus, I think we should keep this discussion partially on pause mood until more aDNA samples and other professional geneticists' studies are released (I hope sooner rather than later). Science is always a falseable (in the Popper sense) field of knowledge, it has provisional, temporary truths that are much better than the former truths and (hopefully) worse than the future truths.

For now, all we can say, based on what real scientists have found so far, is that Sicilians (maybe also South Italians, since they are closely related) shouldn't be understood as basically ancient (pre-IA) Italians with a bit more Levantine, Iran/CHG and Yamnaya ancestry, but as a more recent population with a very heavy North African input. That's what Reich's lab in a study made by some of the best population geneticists assert, so it must be much more credible than my own explanation, for which I am sorry I have insisted so much on. ;)
In reality the only fault of the paper was that it didn't clarify that the "Moroccan_LN" is not what you might think at a first glance, as the comment of Palermo trapani under a comment of a "guest" clarifies, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/584714v1.

Guest: I at first questioned what the authors did. But I was mistaken. I should have read more clearly before forming an uninformed opinion. The authors are not suggesting 43% admixture. The authors used Morocco_LN to model modern Sicilians to estimate the North African admixture in modern populations. Morocco_LN is about 80-85% Minoan_BA/Mycenaean_BA as indicated in Figure 4 of the article by Marcus et al 2020 in Nature entitled Genetic History from the Middle Neolithic to present on Mediterranean island of Sardinia. With Morocco_LN, the Modern Sicilians look similar to Tuscan Italians, with the exception of the small levels of North African ancestry, which as you noted, every other study estimates at 4-5%. Figure 4 as presented in the paper presents admixture results consistent with the prior studies (Sazzini et al 2016, Raveane et al 2019).
 
Ygorcs: I am not going to get into the squabble here but I would be willing to bet that you are aware that Morroco_LN has little native Berber ancestry, in fact looks 80% Anatolian_EEF, some WHG, and some Iran_NEO, so to get the appropriate North African_Berber admixture in modern sicily, Morroco_LN was used. You can see the Fernandes et al 2020 Table 2 which has the ancestral admixture of Morroco_LN. Marcus et al 2020 I think also used a 3-Way model which included Morroco_LN, or some similar source and the result of the Sicilian admixture chart is presented in Figure 4 right next to Modern Tuscany. My personal opinion, I would expect better for a Moderator here rather than this type of childish behavior. Of course, that last statement is just my opinion


bQQdpnc.jpg



FvnEvaH.jpg
 
My Dad once told me that when you try to be a smart ass you usually get kicked in it.

I've always tried to remember that and conduct myself as straightforwardly and sincerely as I possible can, and I've also tried my hardest to not descend to the level of playing snide, passive aggressive games. It makes you look so...well, small.

Just saying.

Those should go in a fortune cookie. :)
 
@Ygorc, I think there is certainly some North African input into Sicilians, due to Moorish admixture. However, consider the modeling of Ibiza_Phenocian, which is predominately Morocco_LN, vs how it is modeled alternatively; not much different from Mycenaeans, and Minoans.

4Lw8gHH.png


5bkGrqm.png



At any rate, I welcome you to continue the discussion in the thread designated to this particular study; let us stick to the topic here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/38120-The-Arrival-of-Steppe-Iranian-Related-Ancestry-in-Islands-of-West-Mediterranean
 
Leopoldo: That Palermo Trapani is the one typing and posting to you right now. Glad you cited my comment from over there. I jumped the gun and did not do my due diligence and homework. But after examining Morocco_LN, who is at best 10% Local Berber, if that, 10% of 46% Morroco_LN will get you to the estimate of 4.6% reported in Sazzini et al 2016 and the similar admixture rate reported in Raveane et al 2019.

Thanks for finding that comment. I think it makes my point without saying anymore and again I appreciate you citing that here.(y)
 

This thread has been viewed 188516 times.

Back
Top