Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

[Dimanto Ruben]

KingJohn: Thanks again, I have never made my GEDMATCH kit number available for other users, only researchers. Are these folks that you have the Kit numbers for people you have met on this site, or some other site. Really good to run these. I ran all of them against K13_Updated samples, and also against Me to see who I am the closest with. I also ran all these samples against the Roman samples from Antonio et al 2019 top 25, all but 1 of them have several, 1 up to like 10, distances less than 5. Each of them has at least 1 Republican_Iron Age Roman in top 25. A45475 (R437), MO41450 (R437), A405665 (R437), T303793 (R437), A482096 (R850), A538499 (R850), T4776333 (R850), A619640 (R850). M090932 is only one that has 2 Iron Age Romans (R437, and R850), A172427 is only 1 with No Iron_Age Romans in top 25.

So these samples are in line with what has been reported here by those whose ancestors are South Italian.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
3.88926728	Abruzzo_Calabria_A454745
4.65228976	Catania_M041450
5.25850739	ReggioCalabria_A405665
5.30446981	Trapani_T303793
6.55443361	Crotone_Calabria_A172427
6.94892797	Caltanisseta_M090932
7.47133857	Messina_A482096
7.97375069	Messina_A538499
8.12771186	Mammola_ReggioCalabria_T476333
8.50699712	Catania_M164106
10.59093008	Cosenza_Calabria_A619640

This is mine (updated k13)

4.86750449 Sicily
4.87939545 West_Sicilian
4.95872968 Apulia
5.08647225 East_Sicilian
5.09487978 Malta
5.12158179 Molise
5.32490375 Campania
5.54854936 Abruzzo
5.70014035 Basilicata
5.84971794 Calabria
6.53831783 Central_Greek
8.95181546 Greek_Andros_Island
8.98424176 Ashkenazi
9.46189727 Greek_Symi_Island
9.61096249 Moroccan_Jew
9.77814400 Sephardic_Jewish
9.92939072 Marche
9.94616509 Italian_Jewish
9.96560083 Lazio
9.96812420 Algerian_Jewish
10.17950515 Greek_Dodecanese
10.43452922 Greek_Western-Thrace
10.98928569 Umbria11.14429450Greek_Chios
11.16054658 Greek_Peloponnese

 

[Palermo Trapani]

DimantoRuben: Thanks for the post. The results you see in in my post #410 are my results compared to the 11 Italians that KingJohn provided GEDMATCH Kit Numbers in his post 381. All those GEDMATCH Kit numbers (Samples) check out. I don't know for sure, but I would guess these are people that KingJohn knows well enough to provide their Kit numbers. But as I said, they check out as I ran all 11 of those samples Eurogenes K13 coordinates and they all hit the correct area code. Obviously, as you can tell, some are closer to me than others.

My Eurogenes K13 using updated samples are below, our results are are very, very, similar.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
3.63130830	West_Sicilian
4.27984813	Molise
4.53094913	Apulia
4.54467821	Abruzzo
5.01440924	Campania
5.30913364	Sicily
5.36017724	Basilicata
6.03359760	Malta
6.04806581	East_Sicilian
6.68697989	Calabria
7.02694101	Central_Greek
8.55354313	Marche
8.61175360	Lazio
8.68674277	Greek_Andros_Island
9.16282162	Greek_Western-Thrace
9.23201495	Ashkenazi
9.66857280	Umbria
9.72998972	Moroccan_Jew
10.07475062	Greek_Symi_Island
10.19252177	Italian_Jewish
10.65898213	Romagna
10.74883249	Sephardic_Jewish
10.85722801	Tuscan
10.87747213	Algerian_Jewish
11.43605920	GR_Peloponese

 

[Dimanto Ruben]

DimantoRuben: Thanks for the post. The results you see in in my post #410 are my results compared to the 11 Italians that KingJohn provided GEDMATCH Kit Numbers in his post 381. All those GEDMATCH Kit numbers (Samples) check out. I don't know for sure, but I would guess these are people that KingJohn knows well enough to provide their Kit numbers.

My Eurogenes K13 using updated samples are below, our results are are very, very, similar.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
3.63130830	West_Sicilian
4.27984813	Molise
4.53094913	Apulia
4.54467821	Abruzzo
5.01440924	Campania
5.30913364	Sicily
5.36017724	Basilicata
6.03359760	Malta
6.04806581	East_Sicilian
6.68697989	Calabria
7.02694101	Central_Greek
8.55354313	Marche
8.61175360	Lazio
8.68674277	Greek_Andros_Island
9.16282162	Greek_Western-Thrace
9.23201495	Ashkenazi
9.66857280	Umbria
9.72998972	Moroccan_Jew
10.07475062	Greek_Symi_Island
10.19252177	Italian_Jewish
10.65898213	Romagna
10.74883249	Sephardic_Jewish
10.85722801	Tuscan
10.87747213	Algerian_Jewish
11.43605920	GR_Peloponese

Interesting, while my ancestors aren't from Sicily but rather from Naples (deep ancestry in one town, just north of the city).

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Interesting, while my ancestors aren't from Sicily but rather from Naples (deep ancestry in one town, just north of the city).

Well on my Fathers side, his Fathers parents were born in Trapani Province, Valle Di Belice (the area of the 1968 Earthquake in Sicily. My Fathers Mother's father was born in Agrigento province, a mountain town 5,000 feet up, her mothers family comes from Palermo Province. All My Mothers family are from Palermo Province. All of my ancestor immigrated to the USA between 1890 and 1905. Interestingly, when I was in Sicily last summer, I found out my Family name not to Common in Sicily, I kept getting "cognome non comune", as it turns out, my family name very, very, common in Campania. On the other hand, My Mothers family name is one of the 5 most common in Sicily and is among the most common all over Italy.

I have been to Sicily and Rome, but Campania is on my list. You need to tell the Italian government to let us Americans of Italian ancestry come over. Hell the way things are going in the USA, the next time I go to Italy, I might not come back.

 

[real expert]

let me guess, this doesn't apply to indians or persians anymore.

Of course Europeanness doesn't apply to Persians and Indians. Firstly Persians and Indians don't consider themselves as Europeans, and they are also geographically speaking not European because they‘re from Asia. Besides, Indians vehemently deny that they have any connection to Europe. They reject the fact that there was a migration from the Russian steppe and that those migrants brought the Indo-European culture and language, genes to India. According to Indians Aryan people and culture are homegrown. However, Gauls and Italics/early Romans both lived in Europe, were Indo-Europeans that were connected via Beaker folk. So an Italic had more in common with a Gaul than with an Indian or a Persian.

is beaker ancestry from central europe your definition of "europeanness"?

Stop putting words in my mouth, please and don‘t quote me out of context. You pretended that between Gauls and Romans there were no connections, whatsoever. Therefore, I brought the Beaker people up.

if they are english by culture they are english. what else should they be?

Uhm yeah.

Black Brits (from Africa or the Caribbeans), Indo- or Pakistani- Brits or Brits of Middle Eastern origin are not mere English by culture, they have their own subcultures too. Get real!


If you think that people from a totally different culture and mentality will be just mere English by culture or even go so far to assert that they are as English as the white ones, then you're either trolling or in denial. You can't pretend and treat foreign people from another continent and with completely distinct culture, traditions that move to Europe as empty vessels with no content. You can label non- white English as native English all you want't but you can't make the genetic and cultural ties to their ancestral homes disappear and change the fact that the original English were white and European. Liberals like you are attacking the fact that the original English were real, white people to a point where historical docus cast black actors to portray medieval or Tudor English as black in order to make black Brits not feel hurt and left out. Hilarious. Besides, claiming that there is not such a thing as English, Scandinavian, etc. is racist. Furthermore, the English actor was spot on. London is indeed not an English town anymore but a globalist and hyper multicultural city. The term multiculturalism exists for a reason and describes modern London. It’s rather the outraged and offended black British woman with the heavy Nigerian accent that insisted on that she is English as any white Anglo and London still being English, who was wrong and trolling. How can she be as English as the white English when she speaks English with a strong foreign accent, in the first place? Here the thing she is Nigerian by ethnicity, by mentality and culture. Speaking English or residing in England won't make her native English. Period. In addition to that there are tons of people who live in London that are neither born there nor identify as English. Having said that I don't begrudged any non-white to identify as English. What I criticize are culture vultures and the refusal of facing the fact that being original English means being European and so-called white.


For instance, British Caribbeans who live now for some generations in Britain still display different customs, traditions and so forth from Jamaica or Trinidad and Tobago. Therefore, in the UK there is the recognition of Commonwealth Caribbean cultural identities. Another example. The Indo- or Pakistani communities in Britain are still connected with the culture and traditions of their ancestral home. Many Indo- Brits have their Indian cuisine, music, dances and Hindu-Religion and display values that developed in India. The same goes for Afro- or Middle Eastern Brits. So much for your notion for being merely English by culture. When you go to certain places in the UK or France it looks like little Africa, little Middle East/North Africa or little India/ Pakistan. Plenty of Chinese and Japanese tourists who went to Paris complained about going to France to see and explore French culture for ending up feeling being in the Middle East or Africa. They were pretty disappointed. The problem with ideological, liberal progressive people like you is that they look at the world with their liberal out of touch with reality- lenses. Hence they live in their liberal bubble. Left wing folks think they are wiser and smarter than others, and therefore are ordained to lecture people about reality by redefining it.

 

[Dimanto Ruben]

Perhaps it's better to have reviewed their family tree up to at least 2nd great-grandparents, especially for Italian-Americans.

KingJohn: Thanks again, I have never made my GEDMATCH kit number available for other users, only researchers. Are these folks that you have the Kit numbers for people you have met on this site, or some other site. Really good to run these. I ran all of them against K13_Updated samples, and also against Me to see who I am the closest with. I also ran all these samples against the Roman samples from Antonio et al 2019 top 25, all but 1 of them have several, 1 up to like 10, distances less than 5. Each of them has at least 1 Republican_Iron Age Roman in top 25. A45475 (R437), MO41450 (R437), A405665 (R437), T303793 (R437), A482096 (R850), A538499 (R850), T4776333 (R850), A619640 (R850). M090932 is only one that has 2 Iron Age Romans (R437, and R850), A172427 is only 1 with No Iron_Age Romans in top 25.

So these samples are in line with what has been reported here by those whose ancestors are South Italian.

Distance to:	PalermoTrapani
3.88926728	Abruzzo_Calabria_A454745
4.65228976	Catania_M041450
5.25850739	ReggioCalabria_A405665
5.30446981	Trapani_T303793
6.55443361	Crotone_Calabria_A172427
6.94892797	Caltanisseta_M090932
7.47133857	Messina_A482096
7.97375069	Messina_A538499
8.12771186	Mammola_ReggioCalabria_T476333
8.50699712	Catania_M164106
10.59093008	Cosenza_Calabria_A619640

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Dimanto_Ruben: I am not sure they are American of Italian ancestry. Maybe they are? Kingjohn would know. Here are the top 10 distances for each of those. A619640 is very close to Greek populations, but Calabria comes up at 4, so looks fine. So looking at the distances, I think all 11 are Americans of Italian ancestry or Italians from those regions. The distances you need to look at are provided below (Top 10 for each). Just to make sure I was clear earlier, I am comparing my Eurogenes K13 to those 11 individuals, and the 4 in Green are very close, and the other 7 are relatively close, they are not light years away from me, but not as close as the first 4.

Distance to:	Cosenza_Calabria_A619640
2.30299805	Greek_Chios
3.75993683	Greek_Dodecanese
4.47292969	Calabria
4.68870984	Greek_Symi_Island
6.35810506	Malta
6.68289608	Sicily
6.98546348	Campania
7.42960968	East_Sicilian
7.84041453	Central_Greek
8.64920228	Apulia

---

Distance to:	Crotone_Calabria_A172427
5.59718679	Ashkenazi
6.27182589	West_Sicilian
6.53592381	East_Sicilian
6.59568799	Abruzzo
6.66826064	Molise
7.14811164	Apulia
7.62944952	Basilicata
7.63877608	Central_Greek
7.72381382	Malta
7.78689283	Campania

---

Distance to:	ReggioCalabria_A405665
4.61343690	Calabria
5.04031745	Malta
5.47861296	Campania
5.95304964	Sicily
6.02857363	Sephardic_Jewish
6.19985484	Moroccan_Jew
6.21980707	Italian_Jewish
6.79672715	Greek_Symi_Island
6.93225793	Molise
7.02374544	Apulia

---

Distance to:	Mammola_ReggioCalabria_T476333
3.58767334	Malta
3.67371746	Calabria
4.64813941	Sicily
4.68841124	East_Sicilian
5.65954062	Campania
6.18539611	Greek_Dodecanese
6.48727986	Central_Greek
6.49785349	Greek_Symi_Island
6.71538532	Apulia
6.76067304	Greek_Chios

---

Distance to:	Abruzzo_Calabria_A454745
2.83074195	Campania
3.09675637	Apulia
3.30951658	Sicily
3.86607036	Molise
4.10313295	East_Sicilian
4.41333207	Calabria
4.41946829	Malta
4.58465920	Central_Greek
4.63377816	Abruzzo
4.96865173	Basilicata

---

Distance to:	Messina_A538499
3.46591979	Calabria
4.14328372	Malta
4.34582558	Sicily
4.44195903	East_Sicilian
4.98104407	Central_Greek
4.99449697	Campania
5.16504598	Greek_Chios
5.64377755	Greek_Dodecanese
5.94213766	Apulia
6.37075349	Greek_Symi_Island

---

Distance to:	Messina_A482096
4.33734942	Calabria
4.34764304	Malta
4.47524301	East_Sicilian
4.64686991	Ashkenazi
5.61713450	Campania
5.98025083	Central_Greek
6.01720866	Sicily
6.57429844	Apulia
7.00442182	Greek_Dodecanese
7.15024475	Molise

---

Distance to:	Caltanisseta_M090932
4.70653801	Sicily
4.95561298	Malta
5.67312083	Calabria
5.77072786	East_Sicilian
6.32250741	Campania
6.53849371	Apulia
7.14332556	Central_Greek
7.51171751	Molise
7.66469177	Basilicata
7.82092066	Greek_Symi_Island

---

Distance to:	Catania_M041450
3.86262864	Campania
3.88894587	Sicily
4.99206370	Malta
5.00346880	Apulia
5.13315692	Molise
5.18020270	Basilicata
5.19543068	Calabria
5.53003617	Abruzzo
6.27377080	West_Sicilian
6.37290358	East_Sicilian

---

Distance to:	Catania_M164106
4.28092280	Calabria
4.39643037	Greek_Symi_Island
4.95814734	Greek_Dodecanese
5.25383669	Greek_Chios
6.47349210	Sicily
6.49840750	Malta
6.63251838	Campania
7.61128767	East_Sicilian
7.99337851	Apulia
8.01282098	Central_Greek

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Dimanto: For the record, not that you meant it in a disrespectful way, but no need to take a shot at Americans of Italian ancestry if those folks are indeed Americans of Italian ancestry. There are quite a few of us here. And by the way, why exactly are my results interesting? I am curios, again, Not insinuating you meant any disrespect.

 

[kingjohn]

I took those kits from other forum
Posted there....
I gone through them didn't saw anything
Wrong with them so it looks like the real
Deal to me

 

[Ygorcs]

What would be interesting is an analysis of all Europeans using the Tepecik instead of the Barcin sample.

Regardless, of course, Tepecik is what should be used for at least Italy if we're going to follow the very clear picture provided by Kilinc et al. Then we'll see how much extra "Levantine" shows up.

But didn't they say that change happened some time before the 4th millennium B.C.? Could it be that there was some major and still not properly analyzed massive population change in Italy (and maybe some other parts of the Central-East Mediterranean area) in the Late Neolithic, which would also explain the presence of CHG/Iran_N in LN Italy undetected anywhere else in Europe except for Greek Pelopponese_N? That massive change could go almost unnoticed because it was still mostly Barcin_N-like, but with minor new components. Is there any relevant difference between the earliest and the latest Neolithic samples in Italy?

I already did that analysis, though using the much maligned G25, lol. It'd be great if someone here knew how to use qpAdm. South Italians and Sicilians appear with very little extra Levant_N-like ancestry, less than 3%. Sounds plausible to me. But Barcin_N is still preferred over Tepecik Ciftlik_N in almost all the samples, with only minor admixtures from Tepecik_Ciftlik_N added to Barcin_N, when I apply the model without any higher distance permission. On the other hand, it does get indeed very different when I allow 0.25x higher distance in the model (maybe that's better to account for drift? Why do you all think?). The change it suggests from totally Barcin_N to more or even mostly Tepecik_Ciftlik_N, though, is between the EBA and the Late Antiquity (of course this may be just because we lack aDNA samples from BA South Italy, only from Sardinia, North-Central Italy and Sicily).

 

[Palermo Trapani]

I took those kits from other forum
Posted there....������
I gone through them didn't saw anything
Wrong with them so it looks like the real
Deal to me ������

KingJohn: Is that a forum here at Eupedia. They look reasonable, and I used Eurogenes K13, which it and other Eurogenes calculators based on lots of data I have seen personally and here by the Advisors and Mods does not do the best job for Italians. Dodecad does better, and the MDLP16 at vahaduo seems to as well.

Anyway, those GEDMATCH Kits were fun to work with, thanks again.

 

[Jovialis]

Apparently, some people, including Davidski, take exception to the idea of Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazi jewish people. I think it is rather obvious, considering IBD analysis, and the fact that there is no way they would plot where they do, without extra Polish ancestry, in a nearly half Southern Euro half levantine population.

 

[Ygorcs]

Results of my model for Italian aDNA samples:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XnYyd4KHyKANvcrtRLVWtneRn6r1Qgwq4u-j7oRvwlg/edit?usp=sharing

Results for modern Italian DNA samples:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16FkRJO2yyhT0DY2es8eo07XN4-0VACV3QPtOxIODEdI/edit?usp=sharing

If these results are at least broadly indicative of the truth, then there are two main possibilities: a minor but still relevant Levant_N-admixed and also CHG/Iran-admixed input, or a very significant if partial genetic replacement of Barcin_N-like EEF by Tepecik_Ciftlik_N-like EEF some time between the LN and the IA, in South and Central Italy.

 

[Ygorcs]

Apparently, some people, including Davidski, take exception to the idea of Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazi jewish people. I think it is rather obvious, considering IBD analysis, and the fact that there is no way they would plot where they do, without extra Polish ancestry, in a nearly half Southern Euro half levantine population.

Really? Then they are simply immersed in stupid denialism, because the G25 model themselves show it perfectly well (actually those models even show Northeast Asian ancestry, extremely minor but consistently found in many samples only in those Jews from Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, which can't be just a coincidence, considering those are also the parts of Europe that until recently were often under Turkic rule and/or influence), and it's also an obvious deduction, because Ashkenazi Jews do not plot at all where they should if they were simply Greek/South Italian-like plus Canaanite/Judean-like.

 

[Angela]

From Kilinc:
"Previous work [6] had noted genetic affinity between Kumtepe from northwest Anatolia and the Tyrolean Iceman [23] from northern Italy. We found that the three Remedello individuals from Chalcolithic northern Italy [24], largely contemporary and possibly genetically and culturally affiliated with the Iceman, also had high affinity to Kumtepe in D statistics (Figure 3B; Data S3). A similar tendency for Kumtepe allele sharing was seen for a Chalcolithic individual from Hungary, CO1 [7], but was non-significant (Figure S3E; Data S3). Intriguingly, the Iceman/Remedello group was more similar to Kumtepe than to Boncuklu, Barcın, Tepecik-Çiftlik, or European Neolithic individuals. We further found that both Kumtepe and the Iceman/Remedello group carried more CHG alleles than other Neolithic populations (Figure 3C). This pattern of additional CHG allele sharing simultaneously observed in Iceman/Remedello and in Kumtepe is not mirrored in convergent allele sharing with other European hunter-gatherers (Figures S3F and S3G). We also found that Tepecik-Çiftlik individuals were consistently closer to Iceman/Remedello and to Kumtepe than to any other Anatolian or European early Neolithic population, including their contemporary Barcın and the neighboring Boncuklu (Figure 3D). These results point to gene flow from an eastern source into Chalcolithic Kumtepe and later into Europe, which could have crossed central Anatolia already before the Chalcolithic."

"Nearly 1,500 years later, Tepecik-Çiftlik and Barcın, fully established Neolithic populations practicing mixed farming (and within 200 km east and 400 km northwest of Boncuklu, respectively), were significantly more diverse (Figure 2B). Part of this increased genetic diversity could be linked to (1) putative southern gene flow (Figure 3A) that could be related to the Aceramic Neolithic to Pottery Neolithic transition in the Neolithic Levant or could be related to widespread interactions in the late Aceramic Neolithic between central Anatolia and the Fertile Crescent in the late Pre-Pottery Neolithic B [26]; (2) migration from the east related to similar factors of inter-regional exchanges (Figure S3D); and (3) admixture among local populations. Southern and eastern gene flow into Tepecik-Çiftlik is consistent with the site’s presumed role as an obsidian hub and its cultural links with the Levant and might have started already before the Pottery Neolithic [15, 16]. For Barcın, these results are also in line with archaeological evidence indicating cultural influx from central Anatolia [27]. This diverse Neolithic population most likely served as one of the sources for the well-documented wave of Neolithic migration to Europe [8, 9]."

". Finally, the Tepecik-Çiftlik population shows significant affinity to the Iceman/Remedello group and Kumtepe relative to other Anatolian and European Neolithic populations (Figure 3D); but Tepecik-Çiftlik also predates Iceman/Remedello by approximately 3,000 years. This implies gene flow events from Tepecik-Çiftlik-related populations into the Kumtepe-related west Anatolian populations, as predicted by archaeological evidence [29], and further gene flow that reached northern Italy by the fourth millennium BC. We propose an additional, yet undescribed, gene flow process from Anatolia into Europe as a better explanation than a contribution from a hypothetical third source into Neolithic central Anatolia, Chalcolithic northwest Anatolia, and Chalcolithic central Europe. Thus, Neolithic population dynamics that initiated in the Anatolian region resulted in multiple waves of expansion and admixture in west Eurasia."

From the first analysis of The Iceman by Dienekes, it was clear that he was both more "Southern" and "Eastern" than the other samples, and it was often stated here.

Kilinc explained why. I have no idea why so little attention to this paper was paid in other places. Probably because it had nothing to do with the almighty Indo-Europeans.

Tepecik had contact with more southern and eastern populations quite early in the Neolithic, and was genetically slightly different from Barcin from quite early on. I see no reason to believe that gene flow from that area west toward Kumtepe and into Europe first started in the late Neolithic. It may very well have been part of the stream from the beginning.

What we know is that it was in Northern Italy before the Chalcolithic.

Give what credence you wish to PCAs, in Kilinc, Kumtepe, Tepecik and Greek Neolithic land all right on top of each other, which indicates to me that this slightly different type of Neolithic ancestry was in Europe very early on.

 

[Dimanto Ruben]

Dimanto_Ruben: I am not sure they are American of Italian ancestry. Maybe they are? Kingjohn would know. Here are the top 10 distances for each of those. A619640 is very close to Greek populations, but Calabria comes up at 4, so looks fine. So looking at the distances, I think all 11 are Americans of Italian ancestry or Italians from those regions. The distances you need to look at are provided below (Top 10 for each). Just to make sure I was clear earlier, I am comparing my Eurogenes K13 to those 11 individuals, and the 4 in Green are very close, and the other 7 are relatively close, they are not light years away from me, but not as close as the first 4.

Distance to:	Cosenza_Calabria_A619640
2.30299805	Greek_Chios
3.75993683	Greek_Dodecanese
4.47292969	Calabria
4.68870984	Greek_Symi_Island
6.35810506	Malta
6.68289608	Sicily
6.98546348	Campania
7.42960968	East_Sicilian
7.84041453	Central_Greek
8.64920228	Apulia

---

Distance to:	Crotone_Calabria_A172427
5.59718679	Ashkenazi
6.27182589	West_Sicilian
6.53592381	East_Sicilian
6.59568799	Abruzzo
6.66826064	Molise
7.14811164	Apulia
7.62944952	Basilicata
7.63877608	Central_Greek
7.72381382	Malta
7.78689283	Campania

---

Distance to:	ReggioCalabria_A405665
4.61343690	Calabria
5.04031745	Malta
5.47861296	Campania
5.95304964	Sicily
6.02857363	Sephardic_Jewish
6.19985484	Moroccan_Jew
6.21980707	Italian_Jewish
6.79672715	Greek_Symi_Island
6.93225793	Molise
7.02374544	Apulia

---

Distance to:	Mammola_ReggioCalabria_T476333
3.58767334	Malta
3.67371746	Calabria
4.64813941	Sicily
4.68841124	East_Sicilian
5.65954062	Campania
6.18539611	Greek_Dodecanese
6.48727986	Central_Greek
6.49785349	Greek_Symi_Island
6.71538532	Apulia
6.76067304	Greek_Chios

---

Distance to:	Abruzzo_Calabria_A454745
2.83074195	Campania
3.09675637	Apulia
3.30951658	Sicily
3.86607036	Molise
4.10313295	East_Sicilian
4.41333207	Calabria
4.41946829	Malta
4.58465920	Central_Greek
4.63377816	Abruzzo
4.96865173	Basilicata

---

Distance to:	Messina_A538499
3.46591979	Calabria
4.14328372	Malta
4.34582558	Sicily
4.44195903	East_Sicilian
4.98104407	Central_Greek
4.99449697	Campania
5.16504598	Greek_Chios
5.64377755	Greek_Dodecanese
5.94213766	Apulia
6.37075349	Greek_Symi_Island

---

Distance to:	Messina_A482096
4.33734942	Calabria
4.34764304	Malta
4.47524301	East_Sicilian
4.64686991	Ashkenazi
5.61713450	Campania
5.98025083	Central_Greek
6.01720866	Sicily
6.57429844	Apulia
7.00442182	Greek_Dodecanese
7.15024475	Molise

---

Distance to:	Caltanisseta_M090932
4.70653801	Sicily
4.95561298	Malta
5.67312083	Calabria
5.77072786	East_Sicilian
6.32250741	Campania
6.53849371	Apulia
7.14332556	Central_Greek
7.51171751	Molise
7.66469177	Basilicata
7.82092066	Greek_Symi_Island

---

Distance to:	Catania_M041450
3.86262864	Campania
3.88894587	Sicily
4.99206370	Malta
5.00346880	Apulia
5.13315692	Molise
5.18020270	Basilicata
5.19543068	Calabria
5.53003617	Abruzzo
6.27377080	West_Sicilian
6.37290358	East_Sicilian

---

Distance to:	Catania_M164106
4.28092280	Calabria
4.39643037	Greek_Symi_Island
4.95814734	Greek_Dodecanese
5.25383669	Greek_Chios
6.47349210	Sicily
6.49840750	Malta
6.63251838	Campania
7.61128767	East_Sicilian
7.99337851	Apulia
8.01282098	Central_Greek

This is mine: QZ2302965

 

[Dimanto Ruben]

Dimanto: For the record, not that you meant it in a disrespectful way, but no need to take a shot at Americans of Italian ancestry if those folks are indeed Americans of Italian ancestry. There are quite a few of us here. And by the way, why exactly are my results interesting? I am curios, again, Not insinuating you meant any disrespect.

Sure, I understand what you mean and if the genealogy is trustworthy and the results reflect the genealogy, I don't see why we couldn't trust these results. What I meant is that in case of Italian-Americans with Italian ancestry dating back to the beginning of the 20th century, a lot of things can ''happen''. Within regions in Italy not much can happen that could change the results all that much if you know what I mean. Personally I prefer good genetic genealogical data before using individuals as a proxy for a given region in Italy. My family would be a good representative for an area in Naples, due to the fact we have very deep ancestry which is proven through genealogical records and lots of confirmed DNA-matches which can assure the paternal line if you're lucky, as this is the most sensitive one for NPE scenarios and the likes.

Your results are interesting because your ancestors are from Trapani right?- and similar to mine, while there is quite a distance between Trapani and Napoli however we're both close to the same side of the sea where there's lots of shared activity, i.e. trade through sea.

 

[Ailchu]

Of course Europeanness doesn't apply to Persians and Indians. Firstly Persians and Indians don't consider themselves as Europeans, and they are also geographically speaking not European because they‘re from Asia.

so it's as i said a geographical group? then you can not be more or less european you are just european no matter what kind of ancestry you have.

Stop putting words in my mouth, please and don‘t quote me out of context. You pretended that between Gauls and Romans there were no connections, whatsoever. Therefore, I brought the Beaker people up.

why should i be putting words in your mouth? you didn't just bring this example for no reason right? you think europeanness is defined by a genetic connection. the genetic connection you mentioned is the central european beaker ancestry from romans. accoridng to this you can be indeed genetically more or less european. if you think i'm putting words in your mouth then maybe you should be more clear and say what you mean.

Black Brits (from Africa or the Caribbeans), Indo- or Pakistani- Brits or Brits of Middle Eastern origin are not mere English by culture, they have their own subcultures too. Get real!

i can tell you all foreigners from everywhere including the european ones often have their own subcultures in their hostcountries. of course there are the extreme cases but those are not the ones i am talking about. i wonder are muslim albanians not european for you?

If you think that people from a totally different culture and mentality

will be just mere English by culture or even go so far to assert that they are as English as the white ones, then you're either trolling or in denial. You can't pretend and treat foreign people from another continent and with completely distinct culture, traditions that move to Europe as empty vessels with no content. You can label non- white English as native English all you want't but you can't make the genetic and cultural ties to their ancestral homes disappear and change the fact that the original English were white and European.

Having said that I don't begrudged any non-white to identify as English. What I criticize are culture vultures and the refusal of facing the fact that being original English means being European and so-called white.

ok, so you think non-whites, who identify as english can never be really english. why do you focus on non-whites? with other whites it's suddendly different or what? i mean, you just don't make sense even looking at it from your own standpoint, wouldn't the "original english" just be "ethnic english" instead of "white"? besides who is white and who isn't? where does you europeanness, start and were does it end? is it based on geographic definitions maybe? you still failed to be clear.

 

[Ygorcs]

What we know is that it was in Northern Italy before the Chalcolithic.

Give what credence you wish to PCAs, in Kilinc, Kumtepe, Tepecik and Greek Neolithic land all right on top of each other, which indicates to me that this slightly different type of Neolithic ancestry was in Europe very early on.

Yes, in Greece and especially the Pelopponese it seems to have arrived very early (though it might not be exactly a Tepecik-Ciftlik-derived people, because IIRC it doesn't have extra Natufian in relation to Barcin_N, but it does have excess CHG+Iran_Meso/Iran_N). However, I don't think there are strong evidences to assert that beyond Greece until now.

Why do you say it was in Northern Italy before the Chalcolithic? Wasn't Ötzi from the Chalcolithic and Remedello from the early BA? I'm trying to understand.

EDIT: It seems Tepecik-Ciftlik had some internal structure, some Barcin_N-like and some Kumtepe and Greece_Pelopponese_N-like (the majority). It's interesting to notice that as a whole there is indeed a difference between Pelopponese Neolithic farmers and the other European Neolithic farmers. Is it thus possible that there just like Greeks in Magna Graecia in the Iron Age Neolithic Greeks also moved into Italy and especially South Italy during the Neolithic and certainly up to the Chalcolithic?

Distance to:	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
0.05145144	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.05499984	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.05840345	TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
0.06185934	TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
0.06505577	TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
0.06512763	TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
0.06521437	TUR_Barcin_N:I0746
0.06533157	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.06579827	TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
0.06618466	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.06644176	TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
0.06714576	TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
0.06759189	TUR_Barcin_N:I0709
0.06946824	TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
0.06988017	TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
0.07121821	TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
0.07185904	TUR_Barcin_N:I0726
0.07188855	TUR_Barcin_N:I0744
0.07399951	TUR_Barcin_N:I1096
0.07557171	TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
0.07603925	TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
0.07725497	TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
0.07760804	TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
0.07769861	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.07844293	TUR_Barcin_N:I0727

---

Distance to:	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
0.04945387	TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
0.05083390	TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
0.05391950	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.05658492	TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
0.05799886	TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
0.05916145	TUR_Barcin_N:I0746
0.05988712	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.06125538	TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
0.06189196	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.06276840	TUR_Barcin_N:I0709
0.06315705	TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
0.06404936	TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
0.06406274	TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
0.06518139	TUR_Barcin_N:I0726
0.06541242	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.06726597	TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
0.06728006	TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
0.06839277	TUR_Barcin_N:I1096
0.07206429	TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
0.07222667	TUR_Barcin_N:I0744
0.07345553	TUR_Barcin_N:I0727
0.07365398	TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
0.07560189	TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
0.07762633	TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
0.07781747	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318

---

Distance to:	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
0.04361842	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.05051103	TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
0.05383395	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.06104788	TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
0.06267554	TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
0.06621899	TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
0.06890065	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.07126312	TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
0.07216711	TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
0.07619903	TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
0.07655813	TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
0.07687433	TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
0.07717897	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
0.07796616	TUR_Barcin_N:I0746
0.07850626	TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
0.07870120	TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
0.07902002	TUR_Barcin_N:I0727
0.07941184	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.08041699	TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
0.08070134	TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
0.08100445	TUR_Barcin_N:I1096
0.08276708	TUR_Barcin_N:I0709
0.08335463	TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
0.08382132	TUR_Barcin_N:I0724
0.08513109	TUR_Barcin_N:I0744

---

Distance to:	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
0.03399882	TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
0.03687600	TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
0.04088118	TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
0.04131332	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
0.04336829	TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
0.04375531	TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
0.04417340	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
0.04498871	TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
0.04617913	TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
0.04787237	TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
0.04877690	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
0.04877703	TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
0.04936038	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.05072004	TUR_Barcin_N:I0724
0.05072214	TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
0.05099348	TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
0.05260709	TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
0.05349496	GRC_N:I5427
0.05386527	TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
0.05410922	TUR_Barcin_N:I1096
0.05592252	TUR_Barcin_N:I0723
0.05691359	TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
0.05808627	TUR_Barcin_N:I0744
0.05926109	TUR_Barcin_N:I0727
0.06136272	GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937

 

[Ygorcs]

so it's as i said a geographical group? then you can not be more or less european you are just european no matter what kind of ancestry you have.

why should i be putting words in your mouth? you didn't just bring this example for no reason right? you think europeanness is defined by a genetic connection. the genetic connection you mentioned is the central european beaker ancestry from romans. accoridng to this you can be indeed genetically more or less european. if you think i'm putting words in your mouth then maybe you should be more clear and say what you mean.

i can tell you all foreigners from everywhere including the european ones often have their own subcultures in their hostcountries. of course there are the extreme cases but those are not the ones i am talking about. are muslim albanians less european for you?


ok, so you think non-whites, who identify as english can never be really english. why do you focus on non-whites? with other whites it's suddendly different or what? i mean, you just don't make sense even looking at it from your own standpoint, wouldn't the "original english" just be "ethnic english" instead of "white"? besides who is white and who isn't? where does you europeanness, start and were does it end? based on geographic definitions maybe? you still failed to be clear.

Good questions. Cultures and societies who are totally unable to differentiate between being a person of foreign background and being culturally and ethnically alien for ever are IMHO doomed when they experience large-scale migration, because they collectively create practices and mindsets that strongly discourage the social and cultural processes that generate ethnic assimilation, acculturation and interbreeding, thus achieving real integration and dilution of the foreigners' elements, incorporating some of their cultural contributions, but keeping the unquestionable dominance of the native culture. Lack of frequent mutual contacts and a willingness to some day consider the descendants of immigrants one of "our own", at least culturally and sociopolitically (national and ethnic identity), will only cause the foreign components to keep increasing more and more and more WITHOUT undergoing assimilation, and thus effectively competing with the local culture instead of merging with it soon.