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Thread: Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

    I'm creating this thread, because there seems to be a contingent of surly and dubious posters on Anthrogenica, misrepresenting similarities between Western Jews and Greeks. I would like to open a discussion here, without it being muddled or shouted down.

    Of course West Eurasians share similarities with one another, such as Anatolian_N, and Iran-like ancestry. However, there are non-trivial differences, that are worth examining, and distinguishing.

    It is true that there has been some southeastern European admixture into the Levant, during the Iron and Classical age.

    As well as Greek-like admixture via the Philistines, though this seems to have been replaced by native Levantine populations over time.

    Firstly, the Ancient Greeks examined in Lazaridis et al 2017, have zero connection to the Levantines of their time. Furthermore, the article asserts that there has been genetic continuity since then, with only some dilution of early neolithic ancestry:


    The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6,7,8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

    ...

    Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists 22, are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Mycenaeans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310
    As for the trajectory Ashkenazi Jewish genetic history, Xue et al 2017 provides this:

    The Ashkenazi Jewish (AJ) population is important in genetics due to its high rate of Mendelian disorders. AJ appeared in Europe in the 10th century, and their ancestry is thought to comprise European (EU) and Middle-Eastern (ME) components. However, both the time and place of admixture are subject to debate. Here, we attempt to characterize the AJ admixture history using a careful application of new and existing methods on a large AJ sample. Our main approach was based on local ancestry inference, in which we first classified each AJ genomic segment as EU or ME, and then compared allele frequencies along the EU segments to those of different EU populations. The contribution of each EU source was also estimated using GLOBETROTTER and haplotype sharing. The time of admixture was inferred based on multiple statistics, including ME segment lengths, the total EU ancestry per chromosome, and the correlation of ancestries along the chromosome. The major source of EU ancestry in AJ was found to be Southern Europe (≈60–80% of EU ancestry), with the rest being likely Eastern European. The inferred admixture time was ≈30 generations ago, but multiple lines of evidence suggest that it represents an average over two or more events, pre- and post-dating the founder event experienced by AJ in late medieval times. The time of the pre-bottleneck admixture event, which was likely Southern European, was estimated to ≈25–50 generations ago.


    Furthermore, prior to their arrival in Europe, the Levant had experienced a trajectory markedly different from that of Greece. Even since the Holocene, the Levant has been distinguished by 27% admixture with Ancestral North Africans, giving rise to Natufians:



    As for culture, and experience as a people, Jews and Greeks have had stark differences as well. Greeks have an Indo-European culture, while Jews have a Semitic one. Throughout history, they have had different experiences as a people. For example, the Romans, despite conquering Greeks, raised their culture to unprecedented heights. While with the Jews, they banished them from Israel, and named the land after their mortal enemies. They vehemently despised the Semitic Carthaginians, and considered them foreigners from Phoenicia, then facilitated a genocide against them. Because of this, Greek culture has been celebrated throughout history in Europe, by preceding super-powers, while Jews were shunned, and vilified.

    All in all, I think both groups deserve the respect of having their own history, and not have it obfuscated.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 09-07-20 at 15:23.
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    I would ignore anthrogenica. That place has fallen to people with agendas trying to make every West Eurasian population a bit more exotic than they are. They keep on trying to find SSA admixture in Natufians, Egyptians, Jews, Mycenaeans. They're finding AASI in Iran_Neo as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I would ignore anthrogenica. That place has fallen to people with agendas trying to make every West Eurasian population a bit more exotic than they are. They keep on trying to find SSA admixture in Natufians, Egyptians, Jews, Mycenaeans. They're finding AASI in Iran_Neo as well.
    Frankly, the responses of some of these posters, has been very emotive, overly sentimental, and in some cases, hostile, and anti-intellectual.

    Example:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post682952

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Honestly I think they are best left alone: I might be using harsh words, but as an Italian from the south I am starting to find it tiresome that people who have zero ancestral roots to Italy try so hard to misrepresent my heritage. It's normal that each man has his "optatives", and one of them often is to have a strong continuity with the people and lands he sees as his "spiritual heritage", but there are the findings of science and at the end of the day, when this optative is not fulfilled, we can agree it's pathological to obsess over it. As for the discussion at hand, the literature agrees that there is a strong continuity between modern day Italians and their ancestors who lived in Italy, yet two parties, which common sense would tell they would never meet, insist in saying otherwise. As for Davidsky, I have read this morning the discussion on anthrogenica and the only words I find is "charlatan, buffoon", because it's sheerly ludicrous that he holds that his own models are better than professionals' and that 2017's papers are outdated (because his models say so) and you can't even doubt them (he's also tremendously egocentric). As for the other party, Ashkenazi have all my respect, given that they are one of the most successful ethnicities in any intellectual enterprise, but it's obvious that as a diaspora they have had a quite different genetic history than south Italians and Greeks, and to insist in claiming that their ethnogenesis almost entirely took place in their original homeland borders on denial. Are my words harsh? Maybe, and it is usually something to avoid, to "pathologise" your opponents in a debate, but when they refuse any evidence that doesn't come from them, even if it's from peer-reviewed papers, and you can't even insinuate that they are wrong, they have long abandoned any presuposition for any kind of rational debate.

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    Indeed, all ethnic groups are worthy of respect, as is their history of how they came to be. It is outlandish for groups to appropriate the identity of others. For example, 19th century Anglo-Saxons, or present day Black Hebrew Israelite claiming to be the "Real Jews". I don't want to see amateur analysis falsely infer the same in this regard as well.

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    Excellent post, but I wonder what caused you to write it in the first place. Are Anthrogenica members claiming Western Jews are Greeks just because they plot close to each other? I've lately seen lots of misunderstandings by people who think plotting very close on a PCA definitely means a common origin, which couldn't be any wronger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Excellent post, but I wonder what caused you to write it in the first place. Are Anthrogenica members claiming Western Jews are Greeks just because they plot close to each other? I've lately seen lots of misunderstandings by people who think plotting very close on a PCA definitely means a common origin, which couldn't be any wronger.
    Thank you, Ygorcs

    My motivation is primarily due to their conspiratorial rejection of academic analysis, in favor of their amateur musings. But yes, I think misunderstanding the PCA, is part of their issue. As well as faulty modeling. They also use pseudoscience terminology, such as "MENA", to describe ancient populations, that don't even have NA.

    Just recently, when I cited the two studies above, they were dismissed as "outdate", and lacking, by Davidiski. When I pointed out the fact that Lazaridis et al. 2017 is still currently cited in important academic papers in 2020, he flew into a rage, and suggested I was appealing to authority.

    That being said, there have been papers that I myself disagree with. Yet, unless they are refuted by other peer-reviewed sources, by professionals in the field, or if I can cite equally reputable sources saying otherwise, I can only speculate.

    These polemicists on the other hand are not so humble.

    Many of these people make vague and unsubstantiated claims, then point to amateur tools, as a kind of gold standard.

    But I can rest assure that their claims, outside of their bubble, is invisible to academia, and the general public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    I would ignore anthrogenica. That place has fallen to people with agendas trying to make every West Eurasian population a bit more exotic than they are. They keep on trying to find SSA admixture in Natufians, Egyptians, Jews, Mycenaeans. They're finding AASI in Iran_Neo as well.


    Yep.I'm a reader of anthrogenica and I witness how amateurs there make claims that Basal Eurasian or Eurasian/West Eurasians don't exist. The AG Moderators and Administrators are biased and self-righteous hypocrites of the highest order where Afrocentrists are being favored and get a free pass when they attack other users or spread their conspiracy theories. Only hyper-aggressive Afrocentrists get banned. The thing is Afrocentrics on anthrogenica provoke, antagonize other users, get triggered, upset, and make real pseudo-scientific claims, and those who disagree or get in a hot debate with them, get banned. They ban right, left, and center yet anthrogenica claims to be the bastion of free speech that wants an open and honest discussion. What a joke!

    People are not allowed to talk about hair and facial features in a forum about anthropology since anthropology is pseudo-science according to the AG Mods and users. Pure gold. However, Afrocentrists that delusionally insist that black Africans have straight hair without any Caucasian admixture and terms like "Caucasian" and "Negroid" are not real categories since Africans can look at whatever they want, are not banned. 98% of black American females were Caucasian human hair wigs and weaves or need relaxers/ perms to straighten their hair. So much for blacks can have Caucasian hair. A thread was closed and people got infraction or were banned due to saying that pure Africans have never and mixed ones only rarely Caucasian straight hair. According to the Mods, this is subjective inflammatory talk against the Terms of Service. Facts are now subjective and inflammatory. In addition to that on anthrogenica European scholars, leading Egyptologists, anthropologists even liberal left-leaning contemporary geneticists are being belittled or labeled as Eurocentrics.

    The AG Mods have the nerve to claim not to be biased at all and free of any agenda or ideology since they are diverse. Hilarious. As if a group of Mods and non-whites can't be racist and as if clique can't be full of bigotry, group thinking, and partiality. On the contrary, the AG Mods are a bunch of one-minded folks with zero sense for fairness who treat users who behave the same, differently. Two users debate and get personal but only one gets banned without any warning, usually not the Afrocentric or other people they favor. The users, especially the Afrocentrists on anthrogenica, think they are smarter than the professional geneticists, they're already treating genetic researches as pseudo-science if they don't like the outcome. Don't get me wrong is good to read genetic studies with a critical mind by checking up their conclusions. However, it's another story when you think you are smarter and treat professional geneticists like ignorant fools. With that being said, on anthrogenica there are people who present genetic studies fast, give good leaks and information about upcoming yet unpublished papers. There are users there who write many insightful and good things. So we shouldn't totally ignore anthrogenica. Anyway, I have some issue with the AG Mods who moderate this forum to death.

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    ^^I will say however, that DMXX was very accommodating to me. Though the other mods seemed absent in regards to safeguarding civil discussion.

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    This entire thread gets the old Siskel and Ebert 2 Thumbs Up!, and all posts to this point have been on point.

    Cheers.

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    Can't say I didn't see this one coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post

    Can't say I didn't see this one coming.
    What is funny is that they celebrated the thousandth page by telling themselves "they've reached 1,000 pages of (mostly) intellectual convo on genetics".

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    This is actually the point of the thread, I believe, which is for people like Azzurro/Principe to appropriate Jewish identity. He believes in a religion run by a Calabrian rabbi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Can't say I didn't see this one coming.
    Hey, that's nothing. A couple of months ago, having not been to the site for months on end, I forgot my password and got locked out. So, I thought, the hell with it, and applied for a new name and password. Mind you, I had never posted a single comment on the site in my life, so there could have been no intent to deceive by creating sock accounts. I was banned for LIFE. You can't beat that one. Meanwhile Sikeliot is on there under two or more socks, and they all know it. Hypocrites.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    This is actually the point of the thread, I believe, which is for people like Azzurro/Principe to appropriate Jewish identity. He believes in a religion run by a Calabrian rabbi.
    Hey Azzurro, show me the proof of this claim? I thought it was evident from Antonio et al. 2019, that this supposed LEVANTINE population went was extinct for the most part.

    What ever Levantine and North African you have is most likely from the Moors.

    As you all can see, he subscribes to an idiotic concept first promoted by Nordicists, as well as people like Sikeliot, that there was a large scale population admixture with the Levant during Imperial Rome. So now he thinks he is ethnically Jewish, or whatever his motive is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Hey, that's nothing. A couple of months ago, having not been to the site for months on end, I forgot my password and got locked out. So, I thought, the hell with it, and applied for a new name and password. Mind you, I had never posted a single comment on the site in my life, so there could have been no intent to deceive by creating sock accounts. I was banned for LIFE. You can't beat that one. Meanwhile Sikeliot is on there under two or more socks, and they all know it. Hypocrites.
    I was banned for having a second account, I had no intention on trolling there, I just wanted a new username.
    If Sikeliot had a sock account, he would've get caught, or he already did get caught (he is banned for life too). They have really strick rules.
    It's okay to argue in terms of genetics there but they have a really strick policy for everyone, it's a little bit over the top.

    And if someone is lying about being Italian (I really doubt they lie about it), adminstators cannot investigate it, so you shouldn't blame them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^I will say however, that DMXX was very accommodating to me. Though the other mods seemed absent in regards to safeguarding civil discussion.
    I guess you didn't argue with Afrocentrists or talked about phenotype then. The AG Mods say otherwise they say their heavy moderation makes sure that there are only civil, high quality discussions of value on anthrogenica. Therefore, they ban right, left and center even a Mod and veterans with lots of recommendation. In my opinion permanent ban should be ultima ratio, the last resort. A forum should also give enough space for discourse and controversial debates. The thing is that AG Mods obviously love banning people permanently. A sign of intolerance. Anyway thanks for your thread and the clarification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Hey Azzurro, show me the proof of this claim? I thought it was evident from Antonio et al. 2019, that this supposed LEVANTINE population went was extinct for the most part.

    What ever Levantine and North African you have is most likely from the Moors.

    As you all can see, he subscribes to an idiotic concept first promoted by Nordicists, as well as people like Sikeliot, that there was a large scale population admixture with the Levant during Imperial Rome. So now he thinks he is ethnically Jewish, or whatever his motive is.
    I know you are reading this Azzurro, I see you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Yep.I'm a reader of anthrogenica and I witness how amateurs there make claims that Basal Eurasian or Eurasian/West Eurasians don't exist. The AG Moderators and Administrators are biased and self-righteous hypocrites of the highest order where Afrocentrists are being favored and get a free pass when they attack other users or spread their conspiracy theories. Only hyper-aggressive Afrocentrists get banned. The thing is Afrocentrics on anthrogenica provoke, antagonize other users, get triggered, upset, and make real pseudo-scientific claims, and those who disagree or get in a hot debate with them, get banned. They ban right, left, and center yet anthrogenica claims to be the bastion of free speech that wants an open and honest discussion. What a joke!

    People are not allowed to talk about hair and facial features in a forum about anthropology since anthropology is pseudo-science according to the AG Mods and users. Pure gold. However, Afrocentrists that delusionally insist that black Africans have straight hair without any Caucasian admixture and terms like "Caucasian" and "Negroid" are not real categories since Africans can look at whatever they want, are not banned. 98% of black American females were Caucasian human hair wigs and weaves or need relaxers/ perms to straighten their hair. So much for blacks can have Caucasian hair. A thread was closed and people got infraction or were banned due to saying that pure Africans have never and mixed ones only rarely Caucasian straight hair. According to the Mods, this is subjective inflammatory talk against the Terms of Service. Facts are now subjective and inflammatory. In addition to that on anthrogenica European scholars, leading Egyptologists, anthropologists even liberal left-leaning contemporary geneticists are being belittled or labeled as Eurocentrics.

    The AG Mods have the nerve to claim not to be biased at all and free of any agenda or ideology since they are diverse. Hilarious. As if a group of Mods and non-whites can't be racist and as if clique can't be full of bigotry, group thinking, and partiality. On the contrary, the AG Mods are a bunch of one-minded folks with zero sense for fairness who treat users who behave the same, differently. Two users debate and get personal but only one gets banned without any warning, usually not the Afrocentric or other people they favor. The users, especially the Afrocentrists on anthrogenica, think they are smarter than the professional geneticists, they're already treating genetic researches as pseudo-science if they don't like the outcome. Don't get me wrong is good to read genetic studies with a critical mind by checking up their conclusions. However, it's another story when you think you are smarter and treat professional geneticists like ignorant fools. With that being said, on anthrogenica there are people who present genetic studies fast, give good leaks and information about upcoming yet unpublished papers. There are users there who write many insightful and good things. So we shouldn't totally ignore anthrogenica. Anyway, I have some issue with the AG Mods who moderate this forum to death.
    Pretty much. And in this current political climate those spineless cowards are probably scared of doing anything that seems anti black. So they've given them special privileges. And you're completely right on the hair thing. They were also claims that SSA populations can have caucasian features without any any West Eurasian admixture. What a joke. Also they constantly shift the goal posts on Egypt. Now that we know a paper is coming out that confirms Egyptians were basically a Levantine population living in Africa they claim Egypt is related to SSA because of Ancient North African (ANA ancestry) despite the fact that this component is closer to Eurasians and distinct from SSAs. Then they claim Egyptian culture and economy has its roots in Nubia. Then they try to claim y E originated in a SSA population. That forum is a joke. They're becoming Egyptsearch but claim to be a serious forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Can't say I didn't see this one coming.
    This is an honor.

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    Afrocentrists

    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I was banned for having a second account, I had no intention on trolling there, I just wanted a new username.
    If Sikeliot had a sock account, he would've get caught, or he already did get caught (he is banned for life too). They have really strick rules.
    It's okay to argue in terms of genetics there but they have a really strick policy for everyone, it's a little bit over the top.

    And if someone is lying about being Italian (I really doubt they lie about it), adminstators cannot investigate it, so you shouldn't blame them.
    Who is Sikeliot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Who is Sikeliot?
    A quite famous member in Eupedia, TheApricity and Anthrogenica. Apperantly he had an anti-Italian and specifically an anti-Sicilian sentiment in the past, but his older posts are deleted now so I didn't see them. I have never seen him behave badly towards Italians tbh, but I have got to know him years after he did it.

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    The Greeks, South Italians and western Jews are quite similar in many ways. Perhaps they were not in the beginning. But they are quite similar today. The Jews have a large chunk of South European admixture. But they had separate roost, yes.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Hey Azzurro, show me the proof of this claim? I thought it was evident from Antonio et al. 2019, that this supposed LEVANTINE population went was extinct for the most part.

    What ever Levantine and North African you have is most likely from the Moors.

    As you all can see, he subscribes to an idiotic concept first promoted by Nordicists, as well as people like Sikeliot, that there was a large scale population admixture with the Levant during Imperial Rome. So now he thinks he is ethnically Jewish, or whatever his motive is.
    If you have to quote my beliefs at least get them right, I identify as Ethnically Southern Italian, and I acknowledge other parts of my distant heritage, such as my Jewish ancestors. I do this in real life as well.

    As for your genetic position, having a conversation without discussing Uniparentals is a waste of time, its blatantly obvious that Levantine ancestry made its way through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The Greeks, South Italians and western Jews are quite similar in many ways. Perhaps they were not in the beginning. But they are quite similar today. The Jews have a large chunk of South European admixture. But they had separate roost, yes.
    And how exactly are they quite similar today when the study I posted shows they are 40%-65% middle eastern, and 15%-25% Eastern European? Are you going to also tell me that the study is incorrect?

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