Genetic and Cultural Differences between Jews and Greeks

@Ygrocs & Riverman:

From Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus

cTur0wI.png


https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

I seriously doubt amateur tools are able to disentangle the homogenous gene pools of Copper Age and Bronze Age Anatolia, if more sophisticated ones currently, cannot.

I also doubt, but what does this have to do with what we're discussing? I'm not sure I interpret that sencentel like you. They don't think they can accurately disentangle the homogeneous gene pools of COPPER AGE AND BRONZE AGE Anatolia to identify admixture processes that involved LOCAL-SCALE population dynamics, that is, what they are saying is that there are not enough samples and sufficiently high-resolution tools to disentangle the fine-grained genetic substructure of the homogeneously mixed cluster that formed in COPPER AGE AND BRONZE Anatolia. But they definitely can and in fact did, in other studies, study how Anatolia_Chalcolithic and Anatolia_BA relate to much earlier, less mixed and far more heterogeneous population samples like Anatolia_N, Levant_N, Iran_N and so on.
 
@Ygrocs & Riverman:

From Genomic History of Neolithic to Bronze Age Anatolia, Northern Levant, and Southern Caucasus

cTur0wI.png


https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(20)30509-2.pdf?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420305092%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

I seriously doubt amateur tools are able to disentangle the homogenous gene pools of Copper Age and Bronze Age Anatolia, if more sophisticated ones currently, cannot.

Like we say in German, "the devil is in the detail". They write "no genetically distinct populations". Even if that's true, that's like my debate about Bell Beakers and Celts. That no new ancestral component was introduced doesn't mean there was actual continuity. Because if neighbour after neighbour is roughly similar, you might have a large scale replacement even without introducing a fundamentally new component, but shifting what's already there.

But I totally want more samples from the Near East, especially Mesopotamia proper and for the Proto-Indo-European question from the Mlefatian and the Lower Don Culture. I also want to know more about the Sumerians and whether or not Semitic movements can be explained by the Southern, more Natufien shifted groups from Arabia almost exclusively and stuff like that. Yes, like always, we need more samples. Let the ancient DNA sort it out (y)
 

Well, aren't these LN Caucasian and EC Anatolian samples, not BA ones? Even using the much maligned and obviously a bit flawed G25 with a small allowance of higher genetic distance (sometimes a good move to account for drift, I believe), I actually get very similar results to those shown in the study:

Target
Distance | ADC: 0.25x
IRN_Wezmeh_N
Levant_PPNB
TUR_Barcin_N
TUR_Buyukkaya_EC
0.03806489
21.8
0.0
78.2
AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
0.05464595
42.8
2.8
54.4
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC
0.03730813
5.0
36.0
59.0
HEAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
 
I thought ANA wasn't SSA related (more SSA related than Eurasians but still on a separate population).

Yes, that's what I meant by SSA-related but "actually ANA". What I mean is that any moderately higher ANA is already sufficient to drive a population sample very much away from another, because of how very basal that admixture is, very divergent in relation to West Eurasians as a whole.
 
Well, aren't these LN Caucasian and EC Anatolian samples, not BA ones? Even using the much maligned and obviously a bit flawed G25 with a small allowance of higher genetic distance (sometimes a good move to account for drift, I believe), I actually get very similar results to those shown in the study:

TargetDistance | ADC: 0.25xIRN_Wezmeh_NLevant_PPNBTUR_Barcin_N
TUR_Buyukkaya_EC0.0380648921.80.078.2
AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN0.0546459542.82.854.4
TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC0.037308135.036.059.0
HEAAAAASUVORK5CYII=

If EC Anatolian has genetic continiutity with BA, it should be ipso facto that Levant_N remains at zero/negligible amounts.
 
Like we say in German, "the devil is in the detail". They write "no genetically distinct populations". Even if that's true, that's like my debate about Bell Beakers and Celts. That no new ancestral component was introduced doesn't mean there was actual continuity. Because if neighbour after neighbour is roughly similar, you might have a large scale replacement even without introducing a fundamentally new component, but shifting what's already there.

But I totally want more samples from the Near East, especially Mesopotamia proper and for the Proto-Indo-European question from the Mlefatian and the Lower Don Culture. I also want to know more about the Sumerians and whether or not Semitic movements can be explained by the Southern, more Natufien shifted groups from Arabia almost exclusively and stuff like that. Yes, like always, we need more samples. Let the ancient DNA sort it out (y)

That's also how I understood, and I'll also add that they are referring explicitly to periods as far as the LBA. All fundamental components of the entire Near East had already been widespread and mixed with each other by that time.
 
That's also how I understood, and I'll also add that they are referring explicitly to periods as far as the LBA. All fundamental components of the entire Near East had already been widespread and mixed with each other by that time.

By the Late Bronze Age, Southwest Anatolians could only be modeled as 6% Levant_N, according to Lazaridis et al 2017.

Bronze Age southwestern Anatolians may have had ~ 6% ancestry related to Neolithic Levantine populations.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310_0.pdf

So even if you used these southwestern Anatolian_BA to model S. Italians, that would be a negligible amount of Levant_N in South Italy. However, Raveane et al 2019 suggests it happened in the Early Bronze age.
 
If EC Anatolian has genetic continiutity with BA, it should be ipso facto that Levant_N remains at zero/negligible amounts.

Does genetic continuity imply total lack of any genetic change even from reasonably similar populations (Levant_Chl and Anatolia_Chl) instead of just the preservation of the major part of it as well as possibly gene flow from already similar and not so distant populations? I'm not sure.

I also think the Chalc and BA samples of Anatolia would plot much further from Anatolia_N towards CHG if they were a simple two-may mixture of 60% ANF + 40% CHG. Also there are some samples that are clearly slightly shifted toward aDNA from Levant_N as well as toward modern Arabians (who are quite Natufian-like) if you trace a cline straight from Anatolia_N to CHG.

This is what I am talking about:

https://imgur.com/a/8VzmPP1
 
By the Late Bronze Age, Southwest Anatolians could only be modeled as 6% Levant_N, according to Lazaridis et al 2017.



So even if you used these southwestern Anatolian_BA to model S. Italians, that would be a negligible amount of Levant_N in South Italy. However, Raveane et al 2019 suggests it happened in the Early Bronze age.

6% is not "negligible" in my book, just minor, and in any case that isn't very far from the ~9-14% that G25 results give for South Italians, which you all have been so adamantly criticizing and denying as a conspiracy to make Italians look bad or something like that (I don't know how, but never mind). That in fact may be even less, ~4-12%, if you apply a 0.25x permission of higher genetic distance, so, again, not far from ABA, which explains the perceived similarities:

TargetDistanceGEO_CHGIRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_NLevant_PPNBMAR_ENRUS_Karelia_HGTUR_Barcin_NWHGYamnaya_RUS_Samara
Italian_Abruzzo0.008868100.07.810.00.00.052.00.230.0
Italian_Aosta_Valley0.021731620.00.00.00.00.051.88.639.6
Italian_Apulia0.010489092.07.411.00.00.051.80.027.8
Italian_Basilicata0.009258722.28.211.80.00.050.80.027.0
Italian_Bergamo0.015822060.00.00.00.00.058.86.434.8
Italian_Calabria0.011980192.810.810.80.80.052.60.022.2
Italian_Campania0.009858712.09.413.40.00.050.00.025.2
Italian_Jew0.009872810.412.425.61.80.039.60.020.2
Italian_Lazio0.011974710.06.611.20.00.051.42.028.8
Italian_Liguria0.020014220.80.00.02.20.056.05.635.4
Italian_Lombardy0.016245190.00.00.00.60.058.65.435.4
Italian_Marche0.011398870.04.25.40.00.055.61.233.6
Italian_Molise0.009132190.27.26.40.00.054.80.031.4
Italian_Northeast0.017359950.00.00.00.02.254.26.836.8
Italian_Piedmont0.012389740.01.40.00.40.058.24.036.0
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige0.014025870.00.00.00.00.056.28.035.8
Italian_Tuscany0.009999790.03.42.00.20.057.63.033.8
Italian_Umbria0.010572450.25.03.20.40.057.61.432.2
Italian_Veneto0.014433490.00.00.00.00.056.66.636.8
Sicilian_East0.011542032.28.614.20.60.048.41.824.2
Sicilian_West0.012281340.010.29.82.20.049.84.024.0
Average0.012821480.64.96.40.40.153.43.131.0
WITH 0.25x HIGHER DISTANCE

TargetDistance | ADC: 0.25xGEO_CHGIRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_NLevant_PPNBTUR_Barcin_NWHGYamnaya_RUS_Samara
Italian_Abruzzo0.015333740.04.43.862.60.029.2
Italian_Aosta_Valley0.023888290.00.00.053.46.839.8
Italian_Apulia0.015632941.84.84.462.80.026.2
Italian_Basilicata0.015576211.46.05.062.40.025.2
Italian_Bergamo0.019072460.00.00.061.04.634.4
Italian_Calabria0.017378793.07.68.060.00.021.4
Italian_Campania0.015809410.87.26.861.40.023.8
Italian_Jew0.016769012.08.622.648.60.018.2
Italian_Lazio0.018003670.02.45.860.40.031.4
Italian_Liguria0.023476240.00.00.059.63.437.0
Italian_Lombardy0.019351630.00.00.060.83.635.6
Italian_Marche0.016723670.00.43.261.80.034.6
Italian_Molise0.015746630.04.61.864.00.029.6
Italian_Northeast0.019784770.00.00.055.25.439.4
Italian_Piedmont0.016443120.00.00.060.81.637.6
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige0.017323390.00.00.057.66.236.2
Italian_Tuscany0.015312740.00.00.063.20.036.8
Italian_Umbria0.017244210.00.80.864.60.033.8
Italian_Veneto0.017955490.00.00.057.64.837.6
Sicilian_East0.016264642.44.611.655.60.025.8
Sicilian_West0.020242440.04.812.054.40.828.0
Average0.017777790.52.74.159.41.831.5
 
Does genetic continuity imply total lack of any genetic change even from reasonably similar populations (Levant_Chl and Anatolia_Chl) instead of just the preservation of the major part of it as well as possibly gene flow from already similar and not so distant populations? I'm not sure.

I also think the Chalc and BA samples of Anatolia would plot much further from Anatolia_N towards CHG if they were a simple two-may mixture of 60% ANF + 40% CHG. Also there are some samples that are clearly slightly shifted toward aDNA from Levant_N as well as toward modern Arabians (who are quite Natufian-like) if you trace a cline straight from Anatolia_N to CHG.

This is what I am talking about:

https://imgur.com/a/8VzmPP1

I think considering the geography of the middle east, it is reasonable to think that Levant_N could have been more isolated from Anatolia, and the Caucauses. Which could also explain why the Anatolian-Caucasian cline remain relatively unchanged for so long.:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]
BmrQGL8.png


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]
QX2CO1e.jpg
[/FONT][SUB]
[/SUB]
[/FONT]
 
Ygorcs: So with respect to Sicilian_East and Sicilian_West, Sicilian West for Levant + Iranian source 16.8, Sicilian_East 16.2 for those 2 sources, if you had GEO_CHG, Sicilian_East is 18.6 ancestral Near East. The TUR_Barcin I assume is the proxy for Neolithic EEF (I don't know anything about the G25 model so if I am wrong, please let me know) so Sicilian_East is 1.2% more EEF? However, if you take WHG+Steppe Sicily is 3% more than Siciilan_East. So it seems it is a wash. Now if one assumes those are population averages that are correct and reflect a normal distribution, then a person could be +/-1 to +/-2 Standard deviations from the means and still be not statistically different. Well within the population distribution. 95% of the population should fall within +/- 2 Standard Deviations from the Mean. If not, then there is something wrong with the sample selection or variable measurements, etc and thus any statistical inference from such model(s) to the general population is questionable (generalizabilty).

Again, Ygorcs if you say G25 is well specified, ok, but I want to see how well it works if you take the G25 model and plot Modern Sicilians vs the published papers. If it produces significantly different results from the large number of published papers out there, then I still have to question it a bit. Not saying it is a totally bad model, just might not be the best among competing models or maybe more so, it does not do a good job for Italian populations in general, Southern Regions to Sicily more so.
 
6% is not "negligible" in my book, just minor, and in any case that isn't very far from the ~9-14% that G25 results give for South Italians, which you all have been so adamantly criticizing and denying as a conspiracy to make Italians look bad or something like that (I don't know how, but never mind). That in fact may be even less, ~4-12%, if you apply a 0.25x permission of higher genetic distance, so, again, not far from ABA, which explains the perceived similarities:

TargetDistanceGEO_CHGIRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_NLevant_PPNBMAR_ENRUS_Karelia_HGTUR_Barcin_NWHGYamnaya_RUS_Samara
Italian_Abruzzo0.008868100.07.810.00.00.052.00.230.0
Italian_Aosta_Valley0.021731620.00.00.00.00.051.88.639.6
Italian_Apulia0.010489092.07.411.00.00.051.80.027.8
Italian_Basilicata0.009258722.28.211.80.00.050.80.027.0
Italian_Bergamo0.015822060.00.00.00.00.058.86.434.8
Italian_Calabria0.011980192.810.810.80.80.052.60.022.2
Italian_Campania0.009858712.09.413.40.00.050.00.025.2
Italian_Jew0.009872810.412.425.61.80.039.60.020.2
Italian_Lazio0.011974710.06.611.20.00.051.42.028.8
Italian_Liguria0.020014220.80.00.02.20.056.05.635.4
Italian_Lombardy0.016245190.00.00.00.60.058.65.435.4
Italian_Marche0.011398870.04.25.40.00.055.61.233.6
Italian_Molise0.009132190.27.26.40.00.054.80.031.4
Italian_Northeast0.017359950.00.00.00.02.254.26.836.8
Italian_Piedmont0.012389740.01.40.00.40.058.24.036.0
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige0.014025870.00.00.00.00.056.28.035.8
Italian_Tuscany0.009999790.03.42.00.20.057.63.033.8
Italian_Umbria0.010572450.25.03.20.40.057.61.432.2
Italian_Veneto0.014433490.00.00.00.00.056.66.636.8
Sicilian_East0.011542032.28.614.20.60.048.41.824.2
Sicilian_West0.012281340.010.29.82.20.049.84.024.0
Average0.012821480.64.96.40.40.153.43.131.0
WITH 0.25x HIGHER DISTANCE

TargetDistance | ADC: 0.25xGEO_CHGIRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_NLevant_PPNBTUR_Barcin_NWHGYamnaya_RUS_Samara
Italian_Abruzzo0.015333740.04.43.862.60.029.2
Italian_Aosta_Valley0.023888290.00.00.053.46.839.8
Italian_Apulia0.015632941.84.84.462.80.026.2
Italian_Basilicata0.015576211.46.05.062.40.025.2
Italian_Bergamo0.019072460.00.00.061.04.634.4
Italian_Calabria0.017378793.07.68.060.00.021.4
Italian_Campania0.015809410.87.26.861.40.023.8
Italian_Jew0.016769012.08.622.648.60.018.2
Italian_Lazio0.018003670.02.45.860.40.031.4
Italian_Liguria0.023476240.00.00.059.63.437.0
Italian_Lombardy0.019351630.00.00.060.83.635.6
Italian_Marche0.016723670.00.43.261.80.034.6
Italian_Molise0.015746630.04.61.864.00.029.6
Italian_Northeast0.019784770.00.00.055.25.439.4
Italian_Piedmont0.016443120.00.00.060.81.637.6
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige0.017323390.00.00.057.66.236.2
Italian_Tuscany0.015312740.00.00.063.20.036.8
Italian_Umbria0.017244210.00.80.864.60.033.8
Italian_Veneto0.017955490.00.00.057.64.837.6
Sicilian_East0.016264642.44.611.655.60.025.8
Sicilian_West0.020242440.04.812.054.40.828.0
Average0.017777790.52.74.159.41.831.5

Look, we can go back and forth all day and night about it, frankly, I think the modeling figures look wrong. Not just for the inflated Levantine, but also the Yamnaya in those charts are WAY off, based on what I've seen.

Every ancient DNA test I've taken, for example geneplaza puts my Steppe admixture less than 20%, with a relatively-respectable amount of WHG.

That is consistent with the Raveane et al 2019 chart I posted earlier.

That being said, until we have a comprehensive study on Southern Italy, using ancient samples from the region, we can debate this ad nauseum.
 
..............................
The obsessions that drive people on sites like theapricity and even anthrogenica don't drive everyone.

I'm tired of everyone pretending that this whole obsession with finding and quantifying the amount of Levantine ancestry in Southern Italians and Sicilians didn't stem from outright racism on boards like Stormfront, theapricity, forumbiodiversity, and even anthrogenica, and that the whole genesis of it was to prove Southern Italians and Sicilians weren't European.

.................................


I understand where you’re coming from. After I have read the comments from anthrogenica on the ancient Roman study, I also got the impression that many wanted to Levantize the original ancient Romans as much as possible. The media for instance, took this study to cloud the Europeanness of ancient Romans in order to promote diversity. The title: Study reveals huge genetic diversity among ancient Romans, who had more in common with people from Greece, Syria and Lebanon than western Europeans
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7666029/New-study-reveals-incredible-genetic-diversity-ancient-Romans.html#comments.

Well if you go to certain areas in London or Paris today, you will also find out that the residents there have more in common with, Nigerians/West Africans, Middle Easterners, South Asians etc. than with the native French or Brits or any European. Furthermore, the media, academic ignore the historical and cultural context and only talk about how imperial Romans are mostly Near/Middle Eastern in ancestry. Hence, many people will ignore the fact the Latins and Etruscans were regular European populations and therefore the Republican Romans probably were as well. Plus the late Roman Empire samples show a comeback in local Italian ancestry. The narrative given by the study, is this was due to immigration from various parts of Europe in the Empire which I don’t think is the case. Again the same manipulative game is being played with this study on ancient Roman DNA like it was played with the Cheddar man. Just because the ancient Romans were not Scandinavian- like that doesn't make them less European. This comment from dailymail ;"Shhhh this will insult all the w supremacists who believe their race are the ones responsible for everything noteworthy in the world. Fake News ! /s", - reflects what probably you and I try to make clear. The media, certain people with an agenda inside and outside the academic world and the PC brigade want to disconnect Europeans from their heritage and history, regardless whether they are North or South Europeans. What connection do modern Syrians or Lebanese have with ancient Rome? Almost zero. On the contrary, Europeans from North till South are still heirs of ancient Roman legacy, heritage and culture. In the end of the day early Romans resembled North Italians and the Imperial ones largely South Italians.
 
It's not like I am making up stuff interpreting my amateur models without any solid basis on what I'd already read in peer-reviewed published genetic studies. You may disagree and you may be even correct ultimately, but it's not like there is no plausible substantiation in what we are interpreting. For instance:

"However, some remarkable differences (i.e., residuals) between N_ITA and S_ITA outgroup f3 statistics were observed as concerns specific ancient population groups (Fig. 2b). In particular, negative residuals suggesting closer affinity of aDNA samples to the S_ITA cluster were found to exceed one standard deviation (SD) from the mean of the obtained distribution when hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus, Neolithic, and Chalcolithic/Bronze-Age samples from Anatolia, Near East, Greece, and the Balkans were considered. Negative values even more outstanding (i.e., exceeding two SDs) were then observed in relation to the Levant and Iranian Neolithic samples. Conversely, positive residuals suggesting closer affinity of ancient populations to the N_ITA cluster and exceeding one SD were found by taking into account especially Iberian individuals belonging to the Bell Baker culture, the Copper Age Northern Italian Remedello specimen, and hunter-gatherer and Bronze Age samples from Central and Eastern Europe."


"The results from the analysis of residuals calculated by contrasting N_ITA and S_ITA outgroup f3 statistics and using a large panel of aDNA samples are consistent with the hypothesis mentioned above. In fact, increased shared genetic ancestry with Chalcolithic/Bronze Age and, especially, Neolithic remains from Anatolia, Armenia, Near East, and Greece was inferred for S_ITA with respect to N_ITA, with the largest residuals pointing to the relationships of S_ITA with populations from Iran and the Levant dating back to the Neolithic (Fig. 2b).


https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-020-00778-4

*************


"Our results reveal a shared Mediterranean genetic continuity, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, where Southern Italian populations appear genetically closer to Greek-speaking islands than to continental Greece. Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations."


"Whether considering the higher genetic similarity of present-day Sardinians to Early Anatolian and European Neolithic farmers (see also Supplementary Information), we can hypothesize these Levantine- and Caucasus-related admixtures as introgressions interfering with the Neolithic (Sardinian-like) genetic background of our Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations."


"These results suggest that the genetic history of Southern Italian and Balkan populations may have been, at least in part, independent from that of Eastern and Central Europe, involving specific migratory events that carried Caucasian and Levantine genetic contributes along the Mediterranean shores (see Supplementary Information)."


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4


The thesis under discussion is "do we need an additional Levant admixture to model South east Europeans and/or Anatolians in the best way possible?".
I hold that the accademic consensus is our best model available, and as for the studies you cited the first is the not-so-good ( as you see, criticisms of accademic papers are something I also contemplate) study from an Italian genetist, whose major fault was being very vague by using the term "near east", because it's easy to distinguish between Anatolia and the Levant, yet the results of the paper regarding aDNA could be explained by the common Iran-neolithic ancestry that both south and central Italy and the Levant share, and it doesn't help in the discussion at hand, for it can be compatible with both the scenario of a migration that carried both Iran-neolithic and Levant-Neolithic/BA/IA (your thesis) and the scenario of a migration that carried only Iran-neolithic( and already present Anatolian) in Italy and another that carried only Iran-neolithic ( plus Anatolian) admixture in the Levant. For what it can be worth, according to this study, https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8, it is north Italians and Sardinians that share more ancestry in common with the Levant, "When we substituted present-day Near Easterners with a panel of 150 present-day populations available in the Human Origins dataset, we found that only Sardinians and Italian_North shared significantly more alleles with Sidon_BA compared with the Lebanese (Figure S8). Sardinians are known to have retained a large proportion of ancestry from Early European farmers (EEFs) and therefore the increased affinity to Sidon_BA could be related to a shared Neolithic ancestry.". It could be wrong, but imo it's worth entertaining, given that it is consistent with the idea that the Iran-neolithic gene flow dilutated the EEFs component and with it the Levant it carried.
The second study suggests, hypothesise caucasus and levant-related admixtures, but again it could well be the same situation above, that it is the shared Iran-neolithic, and I think it is the case because the studies that tried to use Levant-neolithic to model bronze age populations or modern ones (lazaridis 2017, but also Raveanne 2019) do not use Levant-related components.
Now we go to the core of the matter at hand: are the models that do not use Levant-related ancestry trustworthy? Ygorcs holds they are not, because he holds that the authors of the papers did not consider a three or more way genetic models, despite the fact that in those papers they have stated that the two way models worked the best(as Jovialis has posted).
Personally I hold that the professionals' results we have are way much more trustworthy than Ygorcs's models, and I really don't see how genetists would be afraid to"try and analyze models distinguishing ANF and Levant_N" ( "geneticists should try and analyze models distinguishing ANF and Levant_N as much as they can using their advanced tools. Why should they be afraid of doing so if that will enlighten the genetic history of the entire Mediterranean Basin much more?"), frankly I just think they just saw that their models worked best the way they showed in the published studies.
@Ygorcs I reiterate: what makes you think your models are more trustworthy? Don't take that as an insult ( of course you are a reasonable persone and won't see a slander where it is not), or a challenge, but you talked about Aegean populations with Levantine admixture ( and we could agree they would be a could proxy for the eventual population that would have spread the additional Levant-related ancestry) and uniparental data that you think support your thesis, so wouldn't it be best if we discussed about that instead of going on with citing papers that you won't find decisive but others will?
 
Now we go to the core of the matter at hand: are the models that do not use Levant-related ancestry trustworthy? Ygorcs holds they are not, because he holds that the authors of the papers did not consider a three or more way genetic models, despite the fact that in those papers they have stated that the two way models worked the best(as Jovialis has posted).
Personally I hold that the professionals' results we have are way much more trustworthy than Ygorcs's models, and I really don't see how genetists would be afraid to"try and analyze models distinguishing ANF and Levant_N" ( "geneticists should try and analyze models distinguishing ANF and Levant_N as much as they can using their advanced tools. Why should they be afraid of doing so if that will enlighten the genetic history of the entire Mediterranean Basin much more?"), frankly I just think they just saw that their models worked best the way they showed in the published studies.

If that is the case they should publish the other models in the supplementary materials and demonstrate the best one is the two-way one excluding Levant_N. There are lots of papers that include several models the authors tried and explain in detail why they chose one as the best fit and base their discussion on it.
 
I thought ANA wasn't SSA related (more SSA related than Eurasians but still on a separate population).

When going by the Lazaridis study the connection between ANA and SSA is due to the Iberomaurusian genetic input in SSAs. ANA is a genetic component which is distinct from SSA.
 
I think considering the geography of the middle east, it is reasonable to think that Levant_N could have been more isolated from Anatolia, and the Caucauses. Which could also explain why the Anatolian-Caucasian cline remain relatively unchanged for so long.:

BmrQGL8.png


QX2CO1e.jpg

I agree partially, but I don't think a ~5-20% Levant-N-like admixture (varying from place to place) would've been implausible in such a long period as between the LN and the LBA, especially considering the well known span of the Uruk expansion up to the Caucasus and well into Anatolia and the documented presence of Assyrian colonies well into the inlands of Anatolia, not just on the border with Mesopotamia.
 
I agree partially, but I don't think a ~5-20% Levant-N-like admixture (varying from place to place) would've been implausible in such a long period as between the LN and the LBA, especially considering the well known span of the Uruk expansion up to the Caucasus and well into Anatolia and the documented presence of Assyrian colonies well into the inlands of Anatolia, not just on the border with Mesopotamia.

Here is the modeling of different samples from different era, from the study I posted earlier. Here this show more than a two-way modeling:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]
WeXhhXp.jpg
[/FONT]
 
Look, we can go back and forth all day and night about it, frankly, I think the modeling figures look wrong. Not just for the inflated Levantine, but also the Yamnaya in those charts are WAY off, based on what I've seen.

Every ancient DNA test I've taken, for example geneplaza puts my Steppe admixture less than 20%, with a relatively-respectable amount of WHG.

That is consistent with the Raveane et al 2019 chart I posted earlier.

That being said, until we have a comprehensive study on Southern Italy, using ancient samples from the region, we can debate this ad nauseum.

I will say this however, considering that we do have some samples from the Roman paper, I can broadly speculate that an Anatolian_ChL/Anatolian_BA-like ancestry, mixing with incoming Italics is plausible. The fact that the Sicily Beaker can be modeled as 95% Anatolian_BA/ 5% Steppe, and R850 can be modeled as Anatolian_ChL, forming a clade with it; leads me to believe that this kind of ancestry was formative, and is pre-Italic. Furthermore, Northern Italian Beakers being modeled as ABA+SBA+AN+WHG, also demonstrates that this ancestry was being mixed around throughout the peninsula.

Moreover, modeling with these samples make sense, considering they are far more local:

e1aDWHe.png
 

This thread has been viewed 189636 times.

Back
Top