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Thread: I-M223 in SE Ulster/SW Scotland?

  1. #26
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    Country: UK - Scotland



    Apologies, predictive text should have read Lavery and Lowry not Liverpool and Lower!!

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by belstonkelly View Post
    Hi, thanks for responding, yes I am your Big Y match. I find the list of our matches surnames fascinating being mainly native to either here in Ayrshire and Galloway (Ferguson, Hunter, Gillespie, Hannah) or associated with County Down (McGuinness, Liverpool, Lower, McConville). There has been so much movement between sw Scotland and ne Ireland over the millenia that it would prove almost impossible to ascertain the exact origins of our common ancestry. However, I would concur with your view that they in all likelihood migrated from what is now so Scotland to ne Ireland perhaps in Neolithic times?
    Yeah, I've got all those: Ferguson(6), Gillespie(5), Hunter/Hunt(5), Hannah/Hanna/Hannas. Also, a McGregor.

    Jimmy Hanna & the Dynamics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKXFLmNYw1k

    I agree that nothing is certain and there has been a lot of circulation between Ulster and south Scotland, in both ancient and modern times. More testing will hopefully help to develop the picture. As I go up my haplotree, it goes from being predominantly Irish to being predominantly Scottish. I take that as indicating an earlier migration from SW Scotland to SE Ulster, although some could have gone from NE Ulster > Argyle > Galloway > SE Ulster, etc.

    A very good book that helped put the Scottish end of it into perspective for me: https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Scotl.../dp/1899863443

    I tend toward a more recent in-migration of I-Y4751. Neolithic farmer paternal lineages were almost completely replaced by R1b Bell Beakers (a population-collapse followed - the plague?). Any remaining hunter-gatherers would have been very thinly spread. A founder's effect and sudden expansion after a bottleneck is possible, of course.

    "Iveagh was anciently part of the territory of the Ui Eatach Cobha. MagAonghusa (Magennis or McGuinness), lords of Iveagh...The Oriel sept of O'Rogan is cited in Iveagh prior to the 13th century,..The O'Lavery sept, originally of northeast Ulster are found here in medieval times near Moira...Mac Giolla Epscoip (Mac Gillespie) was chief of Clann Aeilabhra, legislator of Cath Monaigh, located somewhere in the barony of Iveagh up to the 12th century...'Gowan is cited here as noted in the name Ballygowan."

    Note: I've got 15 Y-12 matches (mostly GD=0) for Gowin(9), Gowen(2), Goin, Goins, Going, Goings.

    https://sites.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/baronies.htm

    P.S. I'm in Seattle, Washington, USA, so half-way around the world from "Ayrshire and Galloway".
    Last edited by CrazyDonkey; 08-01-21 at 20:37.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by belstonkelly View Post
    Hi, thanks for responding, yes I am your Big Y match. I find the list of our matches surnames fascinating being mainly native to either here in Ayrshire and Galloway (Ferguson, Hunter, Gillespie, Hannah) or associated with County Down (McGuinness, Liverpool, Lower, McConville). There has been so much movement between sw Scotland and ne Ireland over the millenia that it would prove almost impossible to ascertain the exact origins of our common ancestry. However, I would concur with your view that they in all likelihood migrated from what is now so Scotland to ne Ireland perhaps in Neolithic times?
    The Hunter family connection to above surnames were possibly native to Upper Tweeddale (Polmood) area in the Scottish Borders.

  4. #29
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    Its not too far from Galloway to Tweeddale so that's entirely possible.
    Here in Ayrshire we have a local landed family the Hunter Blair and there is the Nuclear Power Station located at Hunterston where I think there was a Hunterston Castle at one time.
    Hunters ton being of course the settlement of the Hunters.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Eochaidh's Avatar
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    Some background on the Cruithin.

    Early Irish Population-Groups: Eoin Mac Neill, 1911

    "The Irish have twelve kindreds of noble race. Six of them in Conn's Half [north of Ireland], viz. Dál Cuinn [Connachta or O'Neills], Dál Cein, Dál Araidi who are the Picts, Dál Fiatach who are the Ulaid, Dál Riatai, Dál Nat Corp who are the Lagin. … These are the free tuatha of Ireland. The foregoing statement is of great antiquity."

    "Dál Araidi to the east of these, another name for them is Cruthnich."

    "The Irish Cruithni of Dáll Araidi are called Cruithni for the last time in AU [Annals of Ulseter] at 773 AD."

    Irish Kings and High Kings: Francis J. Byrne , 1973.
    FJB says that the Dál Fiatach cut the Cruithin into two groups when they captured the consecration place of the Uladh kings at Cráeb Tulcha and split them into Dál nAraide and Uí Echach Coba in the Eighth Century.
    Last edited by Eochaidh; 20-01-21 at 15:50.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient_isles View Post
    The Hunter family connection to above surnames were possibly native to Upper Tweeddale (Polmood) area in the Scottish Borders.
    Yes, I've confirmed with W. C. Hunter, the owner of the Hunter sample at Y130808, the following:

    1) "The Hunter Clan based in Hunterston Castle consisted of Normans who came in with William the Conqueror. Their haplogroups are derivatives of R-M269, whereas we are I-Y39696 and -- by my reconning -- descended from Selgovae. The Hunters in the Upper Tweeddale are said to have been there since before any records were kept."

    2) He also cites the frequent use of "Stanhope" as a middle name "in the first two generations of my family born in North Carolina", that the "use of locations of birth as middle names...was common among Scots-Irish", and that "Stanhope is the name of a burn (creek) that traditionally marked the northern boundry of the Hunter's Polmood estate and a small settlement where Stanhope Burn flows into the River Tweed".

    3) "Famines and religious persecution in the Upper Tweeddale created a clearance of Hunters in the last 20 years of the XVII century. Indications are that my line moved to County Londonderry via Glasgow/County Lanark."

    The Novantae, Selgovae, and Votadini presumably were ancient Brythonic tribes dating at least back to the 1st Century CE in southern Scotland (Lowlands/Borders).

  7. #32
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    CrazyDonkey - I think an underlying WCH theory here is some of the Southern Picts are being connected to the Cruthin as kin? I’m not for or against it. It’s definitely an interesting thought.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient_isles View Post
    CrazyDonkey - I think an underlying WCH theory here is some of the Southern Picts are being connected to the Cruthin as kin? I’m not for or against it. It’s definitely an interesting thought.
    I believe the Cruithne = Picts theory came from a mythical first king of the Picts being named Cruithne. Note that this comes, not from the Picts, but from the Irish Book of Lecain, a miscellany of Irish Folklore that dates back to the 14th to 15th Century. The first mention of the "Cruithin" was in The Annals of Ulster for 446 CE: "The battle of Feimen in which Mac Cairthinn son of Caelub fell. Some say he was of the Cruithin." (Interestingly, "Mac Cairthinn" could be read as McCartan, one of the principal Cruithin-associated surnames.) We can't assume that the ancient Irish knew to distinguish between Picts and Brythons. Cruithin/Cruithne could simply be a generic term for a group thought to have originated from Britain: Qruithin (Q-Celtic) = Pritane (P-Celtic) = Brython/Britain (Latin).

  9. #34
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    It is very fascinating for sure. Being a McEvoy , I am going to try my best to upgrade from Y67 to BigY700 sometime this year, I know that I am predicted to be I-Y4751 in the I-M223 FTDNA group but will be interesting to see what my final step will be. Hopefully in a couple months I can upgrade but if not I am hoping to upgrade sometime this year.

  10. #35
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    Just to add to this I’m also Y4751. I’m in south east Wales and have absolutely no knowledge of any Irish or Scottish ancestry! 23andMe gave me the y4751 result if that can be relied on from them? (Living Dna gave me l-126)

    Cheers

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MONKEYBOY View Post
    Just to add to this I’m also Y4751. I’m in south east Wales and have absolutely no knowledge of any Irish or Scottish ancestry! 23andMe gave me the y4751 result if that can be relied on from them? (Living Dna gave me l-126)

    Cheers
    I assume you mean I-L126. That's upstream of Y4751, which is Isles Scot-Irish. I've got a YFull SNP match in Wales (Evans at Y4751 > BY19878/Y36135 > Y58294). There were cross-migrations between Wales and Ireland.

    To find where you fit below Y4751, you'll need to take the Big Y-700 test at Family Tree DNA. I've got 125 Big Y matches, most under Y4751. I believe all my "Scottish" matches trace back to Picts or Brythons, but not Gaelic "Scotti". The Welsh were Brythonic (as likely were the Picts).

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient_isles View Post
    CrazyDonkey - I think an underlying WCH theory here is some of the Southern Picts are being connected to the Cruthin as kin? I’m not for or against it. It’s definitely an interesting thought.
    More than just "Southern Picts", but a broader Pictish-Brythonic ancestry (Big Y/YFull SNP matches) including

    1) Isles: Macdonald, MacNeil, Morrison;
    2) Highlands: Clan Chattan (McPherson, McLean, McBean, Mackfall/MacPhail, McIntosh), McGregor, McKenzie, McReynolds/MacRannald, McMillin, McKeen, McKinstry, Laughlin/MacLachlan, McKnight/MacNaughton, Cochran, Ross;
    3) Lowlands: Montgomery, Gillespie, Ferguson, Agnew, Durie/Duryea, Forsyth, Burns/Barnes/Byrne, Lindsay;
    4) Borders: Hunter, Lowry/Lavery, Thompson;
    5) Midlands/Yorkshire: Emerson, Timmons, Weatherly;
    6) Wales: Evans, Bayham;
    7) England: Betts, Spencer, Clarke, Soden;
    8) NE Ireland: McGinnis/McGuinness, McConville, Henretta/Hanratty, McEvoy, Arvin, Humphries, Rogan, Quinn, Kelly, McGowan, Allen, Crowley, Ennis/Hennesy, Fagan, O'Neill, Barron.

    Yorkshire/Midlands matches could be connected with the Brythonic Kingdom of Elmet and, further back, the Brigantes.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    More than just "Southern Picts", but a broader Pictish-Brythonic ancestry (Big Y/YFull SNP matches) including

    1) Isles: Macdonald, MacNeil, Morrison;
    2) Highlands: Clan Chattan (McPherson, McLean, McBean, Mackfall/MacPhail, McIntosh), McGregor, McKenzie, McReynolds/MacRannald, McMillin, McKeen, McKinstry, Laughlin/MacLachlan, McKnight/MacNaughton, Cochran, Ross;
    3) Lowlands: Montgomery, Gillespie, Ferguson, Agnew, Durie/Duryea, Forsyth, Burns/Barnes/Byrne, Lindsay;
    4) Borders: Hunter, Lowry/Lavery, Thompson;
    5) Midlands/Yorkshire: Emerson, Timmons, Weatherly;
    6) Wales: Evans, Bayham;
    7) England: Betts, Spencer, Clarke, Soden;
    8) NE Ireland: McGinnis/McGuinness, McConville, Henretta/Hanratty, McEvoy, Arvin, Humphries, Rogan, Quinn, Kelly, McGowan, Allen, Crowley, Ennis/Hennesy, Fagan, O'Neill, Barron.

    Yorkshire/Midlands matches could be connected with the Brythonic Kingdom of Elmet and, further back, the Brigantes.
    I was thinking about it from a what if angle for the Hunter family being descendants of the people Ptolemy labeled Selgovae. Everyone downstream from approx. I-Y4142 hailing from the Selgovae? Not for or against it, just an interesting thought.


    Good luck with your quest.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient_isles View Post
    I was thinking about it from a what if angle for the Hunter family being descendants of the people Ptolemy labeled Selgovae. Everyone downstream from approx. I-Y4142 hailing from the Selgovae? Not for or against it, just an interesting thought.


    Good luck with your quest.
    Y4142 is dated 1900 - 1600 ybp (100 - 400 ce), which is basically the Roman era in Britain.

    **Y4142 - F. Soden
    Y36593 - W. McPherson (William McPherson B. 1774 SCT, D. abt 1821 PQ CAN)
    -FT220078
    --BY136377 - D.D. Watson (John Samuel Watson, born 15 Dec 1826, Memphis, TN), B.C. Watson (James Watson b. abt 1690 SCT; d. aft 1751 Virginia)
    ---FT220080 - W.P. McVay (Joseph McVay, b. 1828, Moneymore, Derry, d. 1890), D.J. Pryor (James McVey b 1700 d 1750)
    ----FT220080
    -----FT150755/FT151414^ - Stewart McVey^di, b 1802

    Y7196 - S. Mitchell (John Mitchell d: FEB 1756 Antrim)
    -Y7472
    --Y7190 - J.A. MacDonald* ("Roderick MacDonald. b.c. 1760, Mingulay [Barra], Scotland"
    --A20948 - J.D. MacNeil ("Roderick MacNeil, b1770, Barra [Sandray Island], Scotland"), J.G. Mac Neil (Donald Mac Neil)**

    BY53709 - G.L. McBean (William MacBean 1800 and d 1880, m. Mary Fraser 1815)

    * Y-12/GD-2 - Big Y, but not a Big Y match. ** Y-25/GD-2 - Big Y, but not a Big Y match.

    McPherson and McBean are associated with Clan Chattan. MacDonald and MacNeil are associated with the Lord of the Isles. Watson (son of Wat or Walter) is generally associated with Clan Buchanan (whose homeland and motto, Clar Innis, is an island in Loch Lomond), but might also be a clan in its own right. Note that being a sept does not necessarily imply descent, but possibly only proximity (I don't match with any Buchanans or Buchanan septs other than Watson). The Mitchell surname is most frequently found in Angus, Dundee, and Aberdeenshire.

    MacVey/MacVeagh is a sept of Clan McLean of Duart - McLean (another Big Y match of mine) also belongs to Clan Chatton.

    Mitchell is likely derived from St. Michael. McPherson ("Son of the Parson") also has an ecclesiastical derivation. Clarke ("Clerk") and Gillespie ("Servant of the Bishop"), Big Y matches of mine under Y4751, were similarly derived. "In the Seventh and down to the end of the Tenth Century, as a matter of fact the law of celibacy was little observed in a great part of the Western Church...Despite six hundred years of decrees, canons, and increasingly harsh penalties, the Latin clergy still did, more or less illegally, what their Greek counterparts were encouraged to do by law—they lived with their wives and raised families. In practice, ordination was not an impediment to marriage; therefore some priests did marry even after ordination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_marriage#History

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