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Thread: Are these Argentine admixture percentages accurate?

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    Are these Argentine admixture percentages accurate?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argent...netics_studies

    This is not at all what I expected.

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    Argentines are more mixed than they're generally thought to be (and also most of them themselves think they are). But the truth is that it varies A LOT between regions. People in Buenos Aires (I can affirm that because I've visited the city twice and walked a lot around in several distinct neighborhoods) has an unquestionable white majority, but lots of mestizo-looking people (but mostly mestizos with a more Europe-shifted phenotype than you think if your idea of a Hispanic mestizo is Mexicans or Peruvians ones). In Buenos Aires the capital and the province of Buenos Aires I won't be surprised if at least ~75-85% of the local gene pool is of European background. In that sense of strong regional structure, Argentina almost parallels what happens in Brazil, though Brazil has an even more varied genetic makeup,a more mixed populace within each region (most of them at least) and a much higher relevant contribution of African ancestry.

    I find it intriguing, though, that while in my experience foreign people severely overestimate the European ancestry in average Argentines, those same people usually severely underestimate the European ancestry in Brazil, to the point that a lot of white and light-skinned mixed-race (who appear white-passing in many nations) people from Brazil tell stories about people who were totally surprised when they told them they were Brazilians and had pretty ordinary looks for Brazilian people. In fact, the difference between Brazil and Argentina as a whole is mainly in the amount of African ancestry. Brazilians are ~60-65% European on average, Argentines, probably ~65-75% on average. What really sets them apart is that African admixture is ~15-25% in Brazil, and at most ~2-4% in Argentina.

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    Argentines with more European characteristics are porteños, that is, those who was born and live in Buenos Aires. In other regions of Argentina, Argentines have striking Amerindian characteristics. See Diego Maradona, world football idol.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Argentines are more mixed than they're generally thought to be (and also most of them themselves think they are). But the truth is that it varies A LOT between regions. People in Buenos Aires (I can affirm that because I've visited the city twice and walked a lot around in several distinct neighborhoods) has an unquestionable white majority, but lots of mestizo-looking people (but mostly mestizos with a more Europe-shifted phenotype than you think if your idea of a Hispanic mestizo is Mexicans or Peruvians ones). In Buenos Aires the capital and the province of Buenos Aires I won't be surprised if at least ~75-85% of the local gene pool is of European background. In that sense of strong regional structure, Argentina almost parallels what happens in Brazil, though Brazil has an even more varied genetic makeup,a more mixed populace within each region (most of them at least) and a much higher relevant contribution of African ancestry.

    I find it intriguing, though, that while in my experience foreign people severely overestimate the European ancestry in average Argentines, those same people usually severely underestimate the European ancestry in Brazil, to the point that a lot of white and light-skinned mixed-race (who appear white-passing in many nations) people from Brazil tell stories about people who were totally surprised when they told them they were Brazilians and had pretty ordinary looks for Brazilian people. In fact, the difference between Brazil and Argentina as a whole is mainly in the amount of African ancestry. Brazilians are ~60-65% European on average, Argentines, probably ~65-75% on average. What really sets them apart is that African admixture is ~15-25% in Brazil, and at most ~2-4% in Argentina.
    Its interesting because from what you read about Aregentines on anthro forums you would think they are essentially 50% Spaniard and 50% Italian. I agree with you on the stereotype of Brazilians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Argentines with more European characteristics are porteños, that is, those who was born and live in Buenos Aires. In other regions of Argentina, Argentines have striking Amerindian characteristics. See Diego Maradona, world football idol.


    True. You always hear of the romantic tales of European descended gauchos and such and I guess it gives a misguided picture.

    Also Messi doesn't help either.
    Last edited by ratchet_fan; 17-07-20 at 03:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    Its interesting because from what you read about Aregentines on anthro forums you would think they are essentially 50% Spaniard and 50% Italian. I agree with you on the stereotype of Brazilians.
    I think that has a lot to do with self-image, too, a social concept of racial identity and patterns of racial classification. Brazil's white population decreased from ~60% to ~44% in the last 60 years or so. That was most certainly not caused (mostly, only partly) by a massive demographic decline of white people in comparison with non-white people, but by new patterns of racial identification of others and of oneself that are more accepting of visible non-white ancestry (Brazilians never cared about having mixed ancestry... as long as you looked as white as possible, so phenotype mattered, genotype not really).No wonder the proportion of black and especially mixed/multiracial people (those who self-declare as such in census and poll surveys) increased tremendously since the 1990s even in the absence of any dramatic difference in fertility rates between whites, mixed-race and blacks. People who claimed to be "mixed/brown-skinned" are starting to accept that they are in fact more black than anything, and people who are visibly multiracial but were reasonably white-passing are starting to have no problem admitting they are mixed-race/brown/swarthy (pardo/moreno in Brazilian jargon) instead of trying to make themselves and others believe they are white just like every white person in the country. No wonder the group of people that has increased their population the most (far above their real natural population growth) is that of self-declared mixed-race/brown/swarthy people since the 1940s. Genetics is not changing that much. How people perceive looks is what is changing.

    I think the same issue happens in Argentina and Chile, but they're far more outdated than us in that respect. I have seen poll surveys in which Chileans claimed they were more than 60% white. No way that is true: I was in Santiago, one of the "whitest" zones in the country (though not more than the underpopulated southern region), and if even 40% of the people were really European-looking, not European-ish mestizo or even very Amerindian-ish mestizo, that was already an upper estimate. Even more striking is what I've seen in surveys on Argentine people. One of them claimed 97% of the population is white. That's just ridiculous. Even in Buenos Aires, at least in my experience, definitely no more than ~80-85% of the population looks white. In the inland provinces those numbers will be much lower. I can only assume a lot of mestizo-looking people believe they are European-shifted enough to claim they are actually white.

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    Btw there are some very good studies on the Argentine genetic structure. I recommend reading these:

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0196325

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26636962/

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....917898v2.full (very recent pre-print from May 2020)

    Basically a lot of genetic structure on a regional and individual basis, but basically mostly European on average with the non-European part being mainly, but not totally, Native American.

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    Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?



    Then, of course, there's the Papa Francesco type, here as a young man and an old one, Piemontese and Genovese.



    As a middle aged man he has a bit of a doppelganger: the actor Jonathan Pryce from North Wales.


    Gauls and Italics were a bit related, after all, plus, North Wales has an awful lot of E-V13.

    Notable Argentines of Italian descent. There's a whole heap of them, and not all from Northern Italy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...Notable_people

    Diego Molito; from the surname I'm guessing southerner.


    I can't say they're notable, but I have family who emigrated there. Some married only other Italians; some married "locals", all in Buenos Aires province.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?



    Then, of course, there's the Papa Francesco type, here as a young man and an old one, Piemontese and Genovese.



    As a middle aged man he has a bit of a doppelganger: the actor Jonathan Pryce from North Wales.


    Gauls and Italics were a bit related, after all, plus, North Wales has an awful lot of E-V13.

    Notable Argentines of Italian descent. There's a whole heap of them, and not all from Northern Italy.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...Notable_people

    Diego Molito; from the surname I'm guessing southerner.


    I can't say they're notable, but I have family who emigrated there. Some married only other Italians; some married "locals", all in Buenos Aires province.
    These Argentines are very handsome and also very porteños, but I think the probability of they having not Amerindian ancestry is very low, like in Southeast ou South of Brazil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    These Argentines are very handsome and also very porteños, but I think the probability of they having not Amerindian ancestry is very low, like in Southeast ou South of Brazil.
    I'm sure most "Portenos" do, but not Papa Francisco: pure Italian. :) Both his parents were immigrants from Italy.

    Well, the Polo player is certainly gorgeous, if not Papa Francisco. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sure most "Portenos" do, but not Papa Francisco: pure Italian. :) Both his parents were immigrants from Italy.

    Well, the Polo player is certainly gorgeous, if not Papa Francisco. :)
    I do not know the biography of our dear Pope Francisco, but the massive immigration of Italians to Brazil and, I believe, also Argentina, ended in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Soon after, the immigration became sporadic.

    The descendants of unmixed Italian immigrants in Brazil are concentrated in not very large geographical areas in the Serra Gaúcha, State of Rio Grande do Sul, and are mainly from Veneto, like most Italian immigrants who arrived in Brazil during the long history of Italian immigration to here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    I do not know the biography of our dear Pope Francisco, but the massive immigration of Italians to Brazil and, I believe, also Argentina, ended in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Soon after, the immigration became sporadic .
    Yes, that's probably why it's much more likely the old who are still "pure" in their ancestry.

    It works the same in the U.S. At a certain point, immigration from Italy was cut off.

    Once you start looking at "Italian-Americans" in their thirties or even forties, while a LOT of them are mixed we still do have people of 100% Italian ancestry.

    Bradley Cooper: half Sicilian/half Irish


    John Travolta: same mix


    James Gandolfini of the Sopranos: half Southern Italian and half Northern Italian


    In the Sopranos


    Michael Imperioli, also in the Sopranos, 100% Southern Italian


    Leonardo DiCaprio: despite the name, only one quarter Italian


    Bruce Springsteen: half Irish/half Sicilian


    Chris Cuomo: news anchor, half Neapolitan/half Sicilian.


    On the other hand, the assimilation and admixture in Argentina and Brazil might have been faster and easier for cultural, religious, and language reasons, so maybe only the really old have no admixture there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, that's probably why it's much more likely the old who are still "pure" in their ancestry.

    It works the same in the U.S. At a certain point, immigration from Italy was cut off.

    Once you start looking at "Italian-Americans" in their thirties or even forties, while a LOT of them are mixed we still do have people of 100% Italian ancestry.

    Bradley Cooper: half Sicilian/half Irish


    John Travolta: same mix


    James Gandolfini of the Sopranos: half Southern Italian and half Northern Italian


    In the Sopranos


    Michael Imperioli, also in the Sopranos, 100% Southern Italian


    Leonardo DiCaprio: despite the name, only one quarter Italian


    Bruce Springsteen: half Irish/half Sicilian


    Chris Cuomo: news anchor, half Neapolitan/half Sicilian.


    On the other hand, the assimilation and admixture in Argentina and Brazil might have been faster and easier for cultural, religious, and language reasons, so maybe only the really old have no admixture there.
    Beautiful people.
    I don't know much about how immigrant integration took place in the USA. Immigrant neighborhoods were very common in São Paulo until the late 1960s. Today they are no longer immigrant neighborhoods. São Paulo is a cosmopolitan city of about 22,000,000 inhabitants. Buenos Aires is also very cosmopolitan and has about 13,000,000. The Italians of Serra Gaúcha in Brazil (mountain region) remained isolated. The others don't. I think that the history of the integration of immigrants in Buenos Aires was not very different from São Paulo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Beautiful people.
    I don't know much about how immigrant integration took place in the USA. Immigrant neighborhoods were very common in São Paulo until the late 1960s. Today they are no longer immigrant neighborhoods. São Paulo is a cosmopolitan city of about 22,000,000 inhabitants. Buenos Aires is also very cosmopolitan and has about 13,000,000. The Italians of Serra Gaúcha in Brazil (mountain region) remained isolated. The others don't. I think that the history of the integration of immigrants in Buenos Aires was not very different from São Paulo.
    Well, most of them are actors. They don't let you into the union unless you're reasonably attractive. :)

    Even Meryl Streep had a difficult time. One producer said she was too plain to be an actress.



    It was probably the nose.


    I always thought that was really harsh; she may not ever have been a raving beauty, but I think she was at least attractive, and is so even today at 70 something when she puts in a little effort.



    All of that said, there's a saying around here that Southern Italians and the Irish make beautiful babies. I tend to agree. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, most of them are actors. They don't let you into the union unless you're reasonably attractive. :)

    Even Meryl Streep had a difficult time. One producer said she was too plain to be an actress.



    It was probably the nose.


    I always thought that was really harsh; she may not ever have been a raving beauty, but I think she was at least attractive, and is so even today at 70 something when she puts in a little effort.



    All of that said, there's a saying around here that Southern Italians and the Irish make beautiful babies. I tend to agree. :)
    Lol. I believe in that saying. It's a nice mix. I think Meryl is beautiful. The new gray-haired look is being copied by women around the world, including younger women who do not yet have white hair, or if they have white hair, they have very few. This is great proof of how influential and admired Meryl is.

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    Duarte: Dr. Fauci, like the Cuomo sons of Mario, is Sicilian-Campanian. For movie buffs, Francis Ford Coppola is Basilicata-Neopolitan. Martin Sorcese's ancestry 100% from Sicily as was Frank Capra. Frank Sinatra was a Sicilian-Ligurian mix, his father coming from the same town as Lucky Luciano!!. Tony Bennett (Anthony Benedetto) was from Calabria, or his family was. Dean Martin, I think his family 100% from Abruzzo where Mayor Rudy's family is from Tuscany on his Fathers side (maybe Angela knows the exact town and its history, its foods, festivals, etc). Not sure where his Mother's family was from.

    Now not saying there the same as the actors, but does give a good picture of the Americans of Italian ancestry in the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Duarte: Dr. Fauci, like the Cuomo sons of Mario, is Sicilian-Campanian. For movie buffs, Francis Ford Coppola is Basilicata-Neopolitan. Martin Sorcese's ancestry 100% from Sicily as was Frank Capra. Frank Sinatra was a Sicilian-Ligurian mix, his father coming from the same town as Lucky Luciano!!. Tony Bennett (Anthony Benedetto) was from Calabria, or his family was. Dean Martin, I think his family 100% from Abruzzo where Mayor Rudy's family is from Tuscany on his Fathers side (maybe Angela knows the exact town and its history, its foods, festivals, etc). Not sure where his Mother's family was from.

    Now not saying there the same as the actors, but does give a good picture of the Americans of Italian ancestry in the USA.
    Thank you @PT.
    All of these people you mentioned are great personalities known and admired not only in the United States, but around the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Lol. I believe in that saying. It's a nice mix. I think Meryl is beautiful. The new gray-haired look is being copied by women around the world, including younger women who do not yet have white hair, or if they have white hair, they have very few. This is great proof of how influential and admired Meryl is.
    Well, I'm glad to hear you say so, since every one of my friends thinks that when we were both younger, if you darkened her hair she looked a lot like me (except I have a better nose. :)) In fact, after seeing "It's Complicated", they all told me, men and women both, that it's as if she channeled me; speech patterns, movement, mannerisms, personality, and behavior. Fwiw, I agree. Of course, at work I had to present a different persona.:)

    I have to admit that a bit of Judge Judy has crept in. You lose patience as you get older and I've lived for a long time among people who tell it like it is.

    Fwiw, I don't think she's beautiful; but certainly attractive enough to be an actress. What that producer said was wrong, as well as downright cruel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, I'm glad to hear you say so, since every one of my friends thinks that when we were both younger, if you darkened her hair she looked a lot like me (except I have a better nose. :)) In fact, after seeing "It's Complicated", they all told me, men and women both, that it's as if she channeled me; speech patterns, movement, mannerisms, personality, and behavior. Fwiw, I agree. Of course, at work I had to present a different persona.:)

    I have to admit that a bit of Judge Judy has crept in. You lose patience as you get older and I've lived for a long time among people who tell it like it is.

    Fwiw, I don't think she's beautiful; but certainly attractive enough to be an actress. What that producer said was wrong, as well as downright cruel.
    Yes Angela. That producer was cruel to her.

    IMO, Maryl calls attention to the elegance too. For me, beauty is the “work as a whole” and includes: Physical appearance, intelligence, good humor, culture, sympathy, empathy. Here in Brazil the maxim always applies: “You shouldn't judge the book by its cover”. We are a people who undress a lot in beaches, clubs and other places of leisure. The cult of the beautiful body here is a fever. That is why we always need to remember this saying. Here in Brazil what most afflicts a person is not ethnicity, but whether you look ugly or beautiful to others.

    I can also be very grouchy, and the older I get, the more grouchy I get, too. lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Yes Angela. That producer was cruel to her.

    IMO, Maryl calls attention to the elegance too. For me, beauty is the “work as a whole” and includes: Physical appearance, intelligence, good humor, culture, sympathy, empathy. Here in Brazil the maxim always applies: “You shouldn't judge the book by its cover”. We are a people who undress a lot in beaches, clubs and other places of leisure. The cult of the beautiful body here is a fever. That is why we always need to remember this saying. Here in Brazil what most afflicts a person is not ethnicity, but whether you look ugly or beautiful to others.

    I can also be very grouchy, and the older I get, the more grouchy I get, too. lol.
    Very wisely put. :)

    If you haven't seen the film, here's a featurette; it's very funny, and heart warming. I get tired of all the doom sometimes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very wisely put. :)

    If you haven't seen the film, here's a featurette; it's very funny, and heart warming. I get tired of all the doom sometimes.

    Thanks for the suggestion, Angela. In fact, seems a very complicated plot, lol. Cool.

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    Wow, I happen to think young Meryl Streep was no classic, seamless beauty, but very attractive a in a unique way, especially in the Choice of Sophia. At least you could never accuse her of having too ordinary looks. She had a strikingly personal figure.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Is he what you guys mean by an Argentine who is mostly European but with some Amerindian added?

    Yes, and also people looking pretty much like this. In Buenos Aires I'd say not more than 20% of the people I saw were like this or more Amerindian-looking (a few even black, but I was told they are often Uruguayans, where dilution of black ancestry was much lower than in Argentina for many historic and social reasons).



    Argentine singers Gary and Sandro


    But I don't know how to judge the greatest of all Argentine actors of our days, Ricardo Darín (amazing actor in some of the best movies I've seen from the last 15 years). He looks virtually Southern European-like, but there is something different that I don't know what it is.




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    I'd say a sizeable minority (at last 10%) of Buenos Aires people are also more like Mercedes Sousa, a more Amerindian-looking people but clearly admixed with Europeans, but in the northwestern and central-western provinces I'm sure the proportion of people with type of look are a lot higher. By the way, this is SOOOOO beautiful (also note the way she pronounces "Parra", with /r/ turning into a /zh/-like sound, which is typical of some northern Argentine, Bolivian and Peruvian dialects, again suggesting the closer links of Northern Argentina to the more Amerindian-shifted Andean area)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjAOk6BX8g

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