What does "Iranian related ancestry" mean?

Well, it depended on the person and whether that person was just an amateur "historian" or an archaeologist with a specialty in the topic.

For example, the mainstream opinion among Etruscologists was that Herodotus was incorrect, because there was absolutely no sign of any new people arriving or of conflict or turnover whatsoever, as I tried to explain umpteen times.

Another thing that happens is that amateurs, including the 19th century so called "historians", pick the ancient who supports their own preferred explanation of history. There were other ancient authors who thought Herodotus was completely wrong, for example, but some people preferred to ignore them.

Personally, having read Herodotus on North Africa, it was always amazing to me that people could take it seriously. It's obviously second and third hand myth. Great, entertaining writing, but not "history", per se. If he was right about anything it was just an accident, because he had no first hand knowledge of any of it.

Well I meant on average, there are probably many mistakes in medieval history too, but one thing that might have contributed to this scenario is that for example medieval historians usually described events that were happening in that period of time, while the ancient ones were more likely to focuss on events that happened centuries before they were even born based on legends or their opinion, like the migration of Estrucan for example.

I used to take those source literally something like 90% in the past.
 
As I have said I take Herodotus and other ancient historians with a large grain of salt. Herodotus is like a modern day travelogue that sits down and talks to the natives or the traders and they tell him their stories and he writes them down. Now some firsthand battle experiences along the way might be true but the rest...
 
Well I meant on average, there are probably many mistakes in medieval history too, but one thing that might have contributed to this scenario is that for example medieval historians usually described events that were happening in that period of time, while the ancient ones were more likely to focuss on events that happened centuries before they were even born based on legends or their opinion, like the migration of Estrucan for example.

I used to take those source literally something like 90% in the past.

We all live and learn, ihype; if we're honest, that is...

A lot of myths have been blown away by modern genetic testing.

I'm glad I was alive to see it.

My father, however, would have been devastated.

For example, he was convinced that he was 100% Etruscan and Roman, and that all those pesky Gallic invaders were sent back to where they came from. As for the Germans, God forbid. For his sake I'm glad he didn't turn out to be U-106. At least he carried an "Italic" y, although the thought it came to the peninsula with some herders from Russia would definitely not been welcome.

The truth is the truth, and everyone has to accept it, not deliberately blind oneself to reality or try to distort the data to aggrandize one's ancestors according to bizarre criteria.
 
Just what we need: more myths from ancient authors with absolutely no shred of proof to support them.

I've let this thread go on and on with all sorts of illogical, data less posts littering it, but I'm beginning to lose my patience. We have a reputation to maintain here.

I've been asked to ban this user, but as I explained we don't ban members for their opinions, even if they are contrary to the mainstream view. However, neither can we allow nonsense to be posted.

Post actual data and logical arguments flowing from it or I'm going to have to close the thread. I'd also recommend not responding to obviously absurd claims. People get tired of talking into the wind and go away.

Herodotus is usually called the "Father of History", not a myth-maker.

If I want to summarize the answers to my questions in this thread, except me, all other ones believe this Iranian related ancestry didn't come directly from Iran, of course I hope our beliefs don't relate to just our nationalities, but I want to know why it matters whether Iranian related ancestry came directly from Iran or not? As I see almost all European people have some percent of Iran_N ancestry which came to their land in the Bronze Age, so there is not a big difference between them.
 
Herodotus is usually called the "Father of History", not a myth-maker.
If I want to summarize the answers to my questions in this thread, except me, all other ones believe this Iranian related ancestry didn't come directly from Iran, of course I hope our beliefs don't relate to just our nationalities, but I want to know why it matters whether Iranian related ancestry came directly from Iran or not? As I see almost all European people have some percent of Iran_N ancestry which came to their land in the Bronze Age, so there is not a big difference between them.

He is called that as he was the first Historian that cataloged events. Bacon is considered the father of the Scientific method. It doesn't follow that everything that Herodotus recorded was 100% correct, he could in fact have gotten things wrong, and as others have noted, there were other ancient historians who said he was wrong, or had alternative explanations for historical events. Nor does the fact that Bacon is regarded as the father of the Scientific method mean every experiment he ran is 100% valid. There are lots of scientific experiments that have not found anything, although obviously doesn't mean you don't learn from it, sometimes ruling out certain hypotheses narrows it down to a set that is the likely one that is correct.

So with all due respect, there is some logical fallacies in your argument.
 
I still hold that Greek_N-like samples for the neolithic substratum and later only the caucausus related gene flow are sufficient to model the pre-IE admixed peoples of Italy and other parts of south east Europe, and the similarity with north Levant are explained by the fact that a really great portion of the ancestry of the region in the BA was from the Anatolia-caucasus cline.
I don't think it would help to bring about this discussion again, at least in this thread( and I have serious issues with the fact that only six samples for Sicily are present in G25, and their provenance is not transparent: I searched for it but I didn't find any clue); still, what we could all agree with is that the fact the no one in the comments pointed out to such bad modelling, given also the past "theorising" in that blog, is at best a very telling hint of the abilities of the users as population genetists, and at worst conscientiously misleading.
I am sorry if I may sound a bit annoyed but it is getting very tiresome that there is a bunch of people that have dedicated a great deal of their free time to prove the "alienness" of half my country ( and to be clear, I do not accuse any one here of having such an agenda).

to me it sounds like your critique is comming from the wrong motivations. sry but you mention that you believe in a caucasus related geneflow but geneflow from northern levant is suddenly alien for you? half your country should be "alien" to what? if to europe why would you care as italian, if to italy why would you care anyways? or is this again northern italians vs southern italians? i'm so fed up with these double standards.
 
He is called that as he was the first Historian that cataloged events. Bacon is considered the father of the Scientific method. It doesn't follow that everything that Herodotus recorded was 100% correct, he could in fact have gotten things wrong, and as others have noted, there were other ancient historians who said he was wrong, or had alternative explanations for historical events. Nor does the fact that Bacon is regarded as the father of the Scientific method mean every experiment he ran is 100% valid. There are lots of scientific experiments that have not found anything, although obviously doesn't mean you don't learn from it, sometimes ruling out certain hypotheses narrows it down to a set that is the likely one that is correct.

So with all due respect, there is some logical fallacies in your argument.

Of course Herodotus was wrong in some cases but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't believe anything he says.

When you talk about logic, the most logical explanation about "Iranian related ancestry" is that it relates to a migration from Iran, so ancient sources which talk about this migration are valid and reliable.
 
Shahmiri: I am not going to debate your opinions and theory about Iran related. I have already stated all I am going to say earlier in the thread. As I have also already stated, I am not going to take a position on when and where the PIE languages first developed and what those people were like DNA wise. There are still several hypotheses out there and when their is more data to provide evidence which one is more plausible, then maybe I will be less agnostic on that question.

My point was basically this, just because Herodotus was "the Father of History" does not mean every historical narrative he wrote down was correct. That was my own point.
 
Herodotus is usually called the "Father of History", not a myth-maker.
If I want to summarize the answers to my questions in this thread, except me, all other ones believe this Iranian related ancestry didn't come directly from Iran, of course I hope our beliefs don't relate to just our nationalities, but I want to know why it matters whether Iranian related ancestry came directly from Iran or not? As I see almost all European people have some percent of Iran_N ancestry which came to their land in the Bronze Age, so there is not a big difference between them.

Shahmari, history is maybe not so important for future, but for someones, it 's an important and serious hobby. History is not limited to genetics, but can be helped by genetics. If only genetics interests you, you can look only at admixtures and PCA's of modern pops based on ancient "basic" pops. If history, languages, cultures and ethnies names matter, you need dates (time) and places, and what kind of admixtures s occurred at what time, and the path taken by who and who.
 
You guys should look at Yamnaya_Ozera, Steppe_Maykop_o, Maykop_Caucuses and ZamanBaba_N. I think then you will understand what is going on with Iran_N, CHG and Steppe DNA.
 
Ancient Greek sources actually mention a migration from Elam to the west Anatolia (Troy) in the story of Tithonus and Memnon and building the city of Susa, Herodotus actually calls Susa "the city of Memnon", it is possible that the same people migrated to Mediterranean islands.

Except Tithonus was originally from Troy (and Memnon was his son).
 
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It seems to be a great work: A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe

The genetic profiles of both the Yagshiin Huduu and Dali_EBA individuals are well fitted by two-way admixture models with Botai (60-78%) and groups with ancient Iranian-related ancestry, such as Gonur1_BA from Gonur Tepe, a key EBA site of the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) (22-40%; Table S15; Fig. 3a), and ancient individuals from post-BMAC Bronze Age sites in southeastern Uzbekistan (Table S15). Although minor genetic contributions from the Afanasievo-related groups cannot be excluded, Iranian-related ancestry is required for all fitting models, and this admixture is estimated to have occurred 12±6 generations earlier (∼336±168 years; Fig. S12) when modeled using DATES (Narasimhan et al., 2019).

We find that EIA Saka populations systematically deviate from the earlier Altai_MLBA cline, requiring a third ancestral component (Fig. 3c). The appearance of this ancestry, related to populations of Central Asia (Caucasus/Iranian Plateau/Transoxiana regions) including BMAC (Narasimhan et al., 2019), is clearly detected in the Iron Age groups such as Central Saka (Damgaard et al., 2018), TianShan Saka (Damgaard et al., 2018), Tagar (Damgaard et al., 2018), and Chandman_IA (Tables S17-S18), while absent in the earlier DSKC and Karasuk groups (Tables S16-S17). This third component makes up 6-24% of the ancestry in these Iron Age groups, and the date of admixture in Chandman_IA is estimated ∼17±4 generations earlier, ca. 750 BCE, which postdates the collapse of the BMAC ca. 1600 BCE and slightly predates the formation of the Persian Achaemenid empire ca. 550 BCE (Fig. S12, S13). We suggest that this Iranian-related genetic influx was mediated by increased contact and mixture with agropastoralist populations in the region of Transoxiana (Turan) and Fergana during the LBA to EIA transition. The widespread emergence of horseback riding during the late second and early first millennium BCE (Drews, 2004), and the increasing sophistication of horse transport thereafter, likely contributed to increased population contact and the dissemination of this Iranian-related ancestry onto the steppe.

y3ld_steppe.jpg
 
evz0_iran.jpg


Ok, nothing could come from Iran in any period, similar names are just coincidental, those who lived in Iran had no language or culture, first they migrated to a mysterious land and learned language and then they came to Greece and Sicily, but no one should think any ancient or modern place name in these lands could be related to Iran, a land without any language.

What a mature response. It is foolish to simply associate placenames based solely off of their coincidental appearance with no regard for the language families they may be derived from.

As I see you don't want to find historical facts but you just want to deny any relation between ancient cultures in Europe and Iran, whether there was Indo-European or non-Indo-European culture in Iran, it seems the most important thing is just to prove even one word in the European culture couldn't be related to Iran, I don't know what it can be called, geneticists talk about arrival of Iranian related ancestry into Europe in the Middle Bronze Age and no one wants to know what these people brought, it reminds me of this book: The Forbidden History Of Europe

Again, you're jumping to conclusions and appearing quite emotionally invested in this. The data is quite clear and the information people have shared with you is quite clear in this thread, and yet you insist that it supports your theories.


I recommend reading the paper, which is focused on the Eastern Steppe and the various tribes that at one point called the Eurasian Steppe home. Reading the discussion portion should also help:

Discussion

The population history of the Eastern Steppe is one marked by the repeated mixing of diverse599 eastern and western Eurasian gene pools. However, rather than simple waves of migration, demographic events on the Eastern Steppe have been complex and variable. Generating more than 200 genome-wide ancient datasets, we have presented the first genetic evidence of this dynamic population history, from ca. 4600 BCE through the end of the Mongol empire. We found that the Eastern Steppe was sparsely populated by hunter gatherers of ANA and ANE604 ancestry during the mid-Holocene, and then shifted to a dairy pastoralist economy during the Bronze Age. Migrating Yamnaya/Afanasievo steppe herders, equipped with carts and domestic606 livestock (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009), appear to have first introduced ruminant dairy pastoralism ca. 3000 BCE (Wilkin et al., 2019), but surprisingly had little lasting genetic impact, unlike in Europe (Allentoft et al., 2015; Haak et al., 2015; Mathieson et al., 2015). Subsequent Chemurchek pastoralists in the Altai were confirmed in this study to represent a separate migration of dairy pastoralists with ANE and Iranian-related ancestry, who possibly migrated into the Altai region from the south, likely via Xinjiang and/or mountainous Central Asia due to the concentration of Chemurchek burials in this region (Jia and Betts, 2010). By the MLBA, ruminant dairy pastoralism had been adopted by populations throughout the Eastern Steppe (Wilkin et al., 2019), regardless of ancestry, and this subsistence has continued, with the additions of horse milking in the LBA and camel milking in the Mongol period (Wilkin et al., 2019), to the present day (Bat-Oyun et al., 2015; Kindstedt and Ser-Od, 2019). Puzzlingly, however, there is no evidence of selection for lactase persistence over this 5,000-year history, despite the repeated introduction of this genetic trait by subsequent migrations of groups from the west. This suggests a different trajectory of lactose adaptation in Asia that to date remains unexplained. During the MLBA, we observed the formation of a tripartite genetic structure on the Eastern Steppe, characterized by the continuation of pre-Bronze ANA ancestry in the east and a cline of genetic variation between pre-Bronze Age ANA-ANE ancestry in the north and increasing proportions of a new Sintashta-related WSH ancestry in the west. The Sintashta, a western forest steppe culture with genetic links to the European Corded Ware cultures (Mathieson et al., 2015), were masters of bronze metallurgy and chariotry (Anthony, 2010), and the appearance of this ancestry on the Eastern Steppe may be linked to the introduction of new (especially horse-related) technologies. DSKC sites in particular show widespread evidence for horse use in transport, and perhaps even riding (Taylor et al. 2015), and genetic analysis has demonstrated a close link between these animals and the Sintashta chariot horses (Fages et al., 2019). The strong east-west genetic division among Bronze Age Eastern Steppe populations at this time was maintained for more than a millennium and through the end of the EIA, when the first clear evidence for widespread horseback riding appears (Drews, 2004) and the heightened mobility of some groups, notably the eastern Slab Grave culture (Honeychurch, 2015), began to disrupt this structure. Eventually, the three major ancestries met and mixed, and this was contemporaneous with the emergence of the Xiongnu empire. The Xiongnu are characterized by extreme levels of genetic heterogeneity and increased diversity as new and additional ancestries from China, Central Asia and the Western Steppe (Sarmatian-related) rapidly entered the gene pool. Genetic data for the subsequent early medieval period are relatively sparse and uneven, and few Xianbei or Rouran sites have yet been identified during the 400-year gap between the Xiongnu and Türkic periods. We observed high genetic heterogeneity and diversity during the645 Türkic and Uyghur periods, with slight shifts in their Sarmatian-like western ancestry component towards that seen among the contemporaneous Alans, a Sarmatian-descendent group known for invading the Roman empire and warring with the Germanic tribes of Europe (Bachrach, 1973). Following the collapse of the Uyghur empire, we documented a final major genetic shift during the late medieval period towards greater eastern Eurasian ancestry, which is consistent with historically documented expansions of Tungusic- (Jurchen) and Mongolic (Khitan and Mongol) speaking groups from the northeast into the Eastern Steppe (Biran, 2012). We also observed that this East Asian-related ancestry was brought into the Late Medieval populations more by male than female ancestors, and we observed a corresponding increase in Y-haplogroups associated with southeast Asians and the purported patriline of Ghenghis Khan (O2a and C2b, respectively). By the end of the Mongol period the genetic make-up of the Eastern Steppe had dramatically changed, retaining little of the ANE ancestry that had been a prominent feature during its prehistory. Today, ANE ancestry survives in appreciable amounts only in isolated Siberian groups and among the indigenous peoples of the Americas (Jeong et al., 2019). The genetic profile of the historic Mongols is still reflected among contemporary Mongolians, suggesting a relative stability of this gene pool over the last ~700 years. Having documented key periods of genetic shifts in the Eastern steppe, future work may be able to explore whether these shifts are also linked to cultural and technological innovations and how these innovations may have influenced the political landscape. Integrating these findings with research on changes in horse technology and herding practices, as well as shifts in livestock traits and breeds, may prove particularly illuminating. This study represents the first large-scale paleogenomic investigation of the eastern Eurasian Steppe and it sheds light on the remarkably complex and dynamic genetic diversity of the region. Despite this progress, there is still a great need for further genetic research in central and eastern Eurasia, and particularly in northeastern China, the Tarim Basin, and the eastern Kazakh steppe, in order to fully reveal the population history of the Eurasian Steppe and its pivotal role in world prehistory.
 
I recommend reading the paper, which is focused on the Eastern Steppe and the various tribes that at one point called the Eurasian Steppe home. Reading the discussion portion should also help:

Thanks, as you mentioned we also read in the discussion portion:

Subsequent Chemurchek pastoralists in the Altai were confirmed in this study to represent a separate migration of dairy pastoralists with ANE and Iranian-related ancestry, who possibly migrated into the Altai region from the south, likely via Xinjiang and/or mountainous Central Asia due to the concentration of Chemurchek burials in this region (Jia and Betts, 2010).

Chemurchek culture in the north of Tarim Basin seems to be clearly Proto-Tocharian.
 

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