Who can help us for publishing our study about ancient DNA in north-central Iran?

[kingjohn]

Yes I also think both are important but we know by now that the mtDNA south and north of the Caucasus is overwhelmingly the same. I also thought about the idea what if the language of the PIEs is actually from the maternal side. I know 3 IE languages and in all of them the term for native language is "mothertongue" or "language of the mother". But there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk 4000BC.

@Shahmiri
You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.

so the aryan steppe r1a theory of davidski is still alive and
kicking

 

[Anfänger]

so the aryan steppe r1a theory of davidski is still alive and
kicking

I wouldn't call it Davidski Theory many other people had this theory decades ago and even without aDNA it was clear that Indo-Iranians are from the steppes of Central Asia. I never thought something else. Only the first part of Indo-european history it still up to debate and needs a solid explanation including ancient DNA evidence.

 

[kingjohn]

I wouldn't call it Davidski Theory many other people had this theory decades ago and even without aDNA it was clear that Indo-Iranians are from the steppes of Central Asia. I never thought something else. Only the first part of Indo-european history it still up to debate and needs a solid explanation including ancient DNA evidence.

ok
:cool-v:
i am also intrested in those indo-iranians
you know in ancient dna
e-m123*( without m34 mutation ) was found
in those remains in iron age north pakistan
and also in north east kazachstan a saka dated to 500-600 bc was
found who carry e-m123*
the first indo -iranians were probably r1a -z93 and some clades of r1b
but they absorbed some other haplogroups during there way from east europe
to the south

 

[MOESAN]

Look at his Instagram page, he has studied both sciences, this is his thesis on genetics: https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Maziar Ashrafian Bonab was his advisor.

Maybe she became feminist! A good thing for society, at some level, but a bad one for some sciences (as the male chauvinism is)

 

[Shahmiri]

But there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk 4000BC.

@Shahmiri
You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.

How old are you?! Where did I say they have "just" found a new sample? You can ask Ashrafian Bonab and Firuzi, they still believe one sample in Sialk is R1a-M17, who said it is not? Why do you lie? You should be actually banned, if you don't prove what you said.

 

[ThirdTerm]

I thought about the origin of Indo-Iranian people Narasimhan could help us, so I contacted him but he disappointed me when he related R1a-M17 to the origin and spread of Proto-Elamite.

I and some Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Surena Firuzi, are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, who can help us in this project?

The site where ancient Iranian DNA was recovered is Ganj Dareh in the central Zagros Mountains. Tepe Sialk is a wrong site. One of the two Ganj Dareh samples (I1945) was tentatively assigned to P1(xQ,R1b1a2,R1a1a1b1a1b,R1a1a1b1a3a,R1a1a1b2a2a), which was later corrected to R2a-Y3399. This is very confusing for beginners.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/

 

[Regio X]

The site where ancient Iranian DNA was recovered is Ganj Dareh in the central Zagros Mountains. Tepe Sialk is a wrong site. One of the two Ganj Dareh samples (I1945) was tentatively assigned to P1(xQ,R1b1a2,R1a1a1b1a1b,R1a1a1b1a3a,R1a1a1b2a2a), which was later corrected to R2a-Y3399. This is very confusing for beginners.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/y-snp-calls-from-the-ancient-near-east/

In Iran there's also a G2b 9500-9000 years old: WC1.

 

[Ygorcs]

This article talks about mid-second millennium BC, R1a exists in the east of Iran and R1b in the west of Iran but it doesn't talk about them in West Asia, so probably they came to Iran later, the origin of Indo-Europeans is another thing which dates back to a few thousands years earlier, it is possible that Indo-Iranian culture came from another land to the southwest of Iran in the mid-second millennium BC but this study says this culture in this period from this region spread to the east and west.
We have Y-DNA haplogroups R1a in north of India, L in Pakistan, J2 in Iran and R1b in Turkey/Caucasus where ancient Indo-Iranians lived, but from another side we see mtDNA R2 in these lands, so Indo-Iranian culture could be related to the second one.

R2 in all those lands is clearly linked to the spread of autosomal Iran_N admixture westward and eastward during the Neolithic era.

R1a, L, J2 and R1b are present in all those regions you're talking about. Only frequencies change: in some there is more R1a, in some others there is more R1b, in some others there is more J2 or L. I don't think we should simply assume the complex history of that region began and ended with the Indo-Europeans, let alone more specifically with the Indo-Iranians. There were lots of other peoples involved.

 

[Ygorcs]

@Shahmiri
You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.

Don't use such aggressive words to criticize, Anfänger. You can say exactly what you think in a more polite and soft tone.

But I'm now curious: do you read Farsi? Can you tell us what is REALLY written in that file about the study on Tepe Sialk samples? I find it really unlikely that all foreign scientists would've simply ignored an amazing findng of R1a-M17 in Iran 4,000 B.C. Or is it just 4,000 YBP (i.e. Sintashta-Andronovo times)?

 

[Shahmiri]

Don't use such aggressive words to criticize, Anfänger. You can say exactly what you think in a more polite and soft tone.

But I'm now curious: do you read Farsi? Can you tell us what is REALLY written in that file about the study on Tepe Sialk samples? I find it really unlikely that all foreign scientists would've simply ignored an amazing findng of R1a-M17 in Iran 4,000 B.C. Or is it just 4,000 YBP (i.e. Sintashta-Andronovo times)?

I think Anfänger should be at least warned, not because his insults and aggressive words but because his lie, of course I think he can't read Persian well, Mr.Firuzi replied to me "We made mistake that we just worked (focused) on patrilineal (male-line)" but he translated "We did a mistake. We worked on the father line"!

Mr.Firuzi didn't say this thing to me but I think by comparing to other samples, they see it as an outlier.

 

[Anfänger]

I do not know you why guys give Shahmiri that much attention. He should be ignored by everyone because he deliberately deceives people on this forum. He is a liar.
1. He says that he is part of this study which he isn't you can check the list with the scientists involved.
2. This study is from the Iranian Year 1388. Current Iranian year is 1399. That's 11 years ago. We all know how bad studies this old were, contamination etc. was a big problem. He should have said that this study it that old but he just said they have found new samples.

But I'm now curious: do you read Farsi? Can you tell us what is REALLY written in that file about the study on Tepe Sialk samples? I find it really unlikely that all foreign scientists would've simply ignored an amazing findng of R1a-M17 in Iran 4,000 B.C. Or is it just 4,000 YBP (i.e. Sintashta-Andronovo times)?

I can read Farsi but I used a translator for this because it is too long. This is a accurate translation:

Investigating the Possibility of Molecular and Comparative Studies between Samples Found from Some Ancient Iranian and Iranian Ethnicities Today Thesis of the Ministry of Science, Research and Technology - Shahrekord University - Faculty of Basic Sciences Student: Sorena Firoozi Supervisor: Behnaz Saffar Maziar Ashrafian Bonab Year of Publication: 1388 15 Home Keywords: Ancient DNA-r1a-Aryan People-Haplo Group-Abstract Not so long-standing knowledge of molecular ethnography has been able to explain the uninterpretable archaeological findings.
So far, there have been many molecular studies on human bone samples from many parts of the world and related civilizations, such as Egypt. But in Iran, such research has been very limited so far. Previous research has never been done on ancient specimens of the Iranian plateau. Rather, modern examples have always been examined in them. The experiments of Luca Luigi Esfortsa, Dr. Ahadi, and the Cambridge Research Team (2000-2006) all indicate the closeness of the current Iranian tribes to each other. In this study, for the first time on the ancient inhabitants of four regions of Khuzestan (related to the Ilam civilization), *Silk hill (inhabitants of the fourth and fifth millennia BC), Valiran Damavand (related to the Parthian period) and Bam (after Ancient Iran) Molecular analysis of genealogy was done in this way and according to the historical evidence of the Aryan nature of the Parthians (Parthians) and Bami, the lineage and ethnicity of the Elamites and Silks. Also with this research, the common hypothesis of the time of Aryan migration to the Iranian plateau was evaluated. The basis of the present study was to investigate the presence or absence of Haplo, the paternal group of the Eastern Aryan (Indo-Iranian-European) people, as a marker r1a (m17) on the y chromosome. Since this marker is considered as an index of identification of Indo-Iranian (Aryan) peoples, it was considered in this search. DNA extraction was performed by phenol-chlorofrome-isoamyl alcohol method and then the extracted product was pcr. In the next step, the product of the amplification process was applied on two agarose gels and polyacrylamide, and after observing the desired band, the product was sequenced. The results of this study clearly showed that in most of the samples collected from the region of Ilam civilization, the mentioned marker was present and in one of the two studied cases of silks with a longevity of 4000 BC, this The index was seen. Thus, in addition to increasing the probability that a group of people living in these areas were Aryans in the mentioned time periods, the possibility of incorrect hypothesis of Aryan migration in the second and third millennia BC was considered and, on the contrary, this notion Created that this migration, if it existed, could have taken place in a much older time.

*Silk Hill = Teppe Sialk

Mr.Firuzi replied to me "We made mistake that we just worked (focused) on patrilineal (male-line)" but he translated "We did a mistake. We worked on the father line"!

So where is the main difference ? The translation is accurate.

 

[Shahmiri]

I do not know you why guys give Shahmiri that much attention. He should be ignored by everyone because he deliberately deceives people on this forum. He is a liar.
1. He says that he is part of this study which he isn't you can check the list with the scientists involved.
2. This study is from the Iranian Year 1388. Current Iranian year is 1399. That's 11 years ago. We all know how bad studies this old were, contamination etc. was a big problem. He should have said that this study it that old but he just said they have found new samples.

I can read Farsi but I used a translator for this because it is too long. This is a accurate translation:

*Silk Hill = Teppe Sialk

So where is the main difference ? The translation is accurate.

Stop lying, I'm not a geneticist and I never said that I am part of a genetic study, I just said that I and some Iranian geneticists are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, you can ask Mr. Firuzi that it is true or not. You didn't discover a new thing, Ygorcs knew about this R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk several months ago, he himself used Google Translator and read the study that you found yesterday.

Now you should prove this thing: "there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk", I want to be positive, you probably know a new thing that we don't know.

 

[Anfänger]

Stop lying, I'm not a geneticist and I never said that I am part of a genetic study, I just said that I and some Iranian geneticists are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, you can ask Mr. Firuzi that it is true or not. You didn't discover a new thing, Ygorcs knew about this R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk several months ago, he himself used Google Translator and read the study that you found yesterday.

Now you should prove this thing: "there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk", I want to be positive, you probably know a new thing that we don't know.

Yeah sure dude. The title of this (your) thread is :
Who can help us for publishing our study about ancient DNA in north-central Iran?


So you are not part of us and our. Go get professional help. I know Tehran has very good psychologists.
From now on I am going to ignore you, I hope other members to the same.

 

[Shahmiri]

Yeah sure dude. The title of this (your) thread is :
Who can help us for publishing our study about ancient DNA in north-central Iran?


So you are not part of us and our. Go get professional help. I know Tehran has very good psychologists.
From now on I am going to ignore you, I hope other members to the same.

Yes this old study has not still been published, otherwise you didn't ask me the Data, we need help for this purpose, there can be really something wrong, for example it is possible, as Ygorcs said, it is not from 4,000 BC but 2,000 BC. I can't understand your aggressive behavior towards me.

 

[Anfänger]

ok
:cool-v:
i am also intrested in those indo-iranians
you know in ancient dna
e-m123*( without m34 mutation ) was found
in those remains in iron age north pakistan
and also in north east kazachstan a saka dated to 500-600 bc was
found who carry e-m123*
the first indo -iranians were probably r1a -z93 and some clades of r1b
but they absorbed some other haplogroups during there way from east europe
to the south

BMAC has some E males but i don't know which subclade they have. Maybe Indo-Iranians absorbed BMAC males before arriving in North Pakistan but Narasimhan et al. 2019 said that Indo-Aryans didn't have BMAC ancestry.

 

[halfalp]

How old are you?! Where did I say they have "just" found a new sample? You can ask Ashrafian Bonab and Firuzi, they still believe one sample in Sialk is R1a-M17, who said it is not? Why do you lie? You should be actually banned, if you don't prove what you said.

When they think R1a-M17, what it actually implies is everything under M17 in the phylogenetic tree and with inferences, it's probably under R1a-Z93.

 

[Ricardo]

I and some Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Surena Firuzi, are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, who can help us in this project?

Congratulations. That's a very important task because we need samples from Iran, a completely under-researched region. You can have a great impact in this scientific field with new samples and Iranian haplogroups, almost never researched, but but scientific rigour must be indisputable.

 

[kingjohn]

BMAC has some E males but i don't know which subclade they have. Maybe Indo-Iranians absorbed BMAC males before arriving in North Pakistan but Narasimhan et al. 2019 said that Indo-Aryans didn't have BMAC ancestry.

yes the e1b1b1 samples from iron age north pakistan
don't have bmac ancestery
they have Sintashta like ancestery
the ones in north pakistan who are e1b1b1 are e-m123*( without m34 mutation just like the saka from north east kazachstan)
yes there were 2 e1b1b1 in the bmac
one in such low resulution that it can only be confirmed as E
from farkhor tajikistan
the other one from gonur teppe turkmenistan I2085 clearly from bmac culture
was e-m34 acording to open genomes anlaysis.....
i put this sample back when gedmatch work in ANE-K7 test
and it had 29% ANE huge
the bmac didn't have steppe contrary to the north pakistan samples ...


E-M35

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/292581v1



I2085 .. E1b1b1 Gonur1_BA 2011-1886 calBCE (3580±20 BP, PSUAMS-2313) Turkmenistan
S7725.E1.L1 M65a1 E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8191.E1.L1 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
S8195.E1.L1 U8b1a2b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1200-800 BCE Pakistan
I6899 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1044-830 cal BCE (2785±45 BP, CEDAD LTL13328A) Pakistan
I6900 .. E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA 1400-1126 cal BCE (3018± 45 BP, CEDAD LTL13327A) Pakistan
I1985 M E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA 1192-939 calBCE (2880±30 BP, Beta-428667) Pakistan
I3262 H14a E1b1b1b2a Udegram_IA_father.or.son.I1799 976-832 calBCE (2760±25 BP, PSUAMS-2157) Pakistan
I1799 T2a1b E1b1b1b2 Udegram_IA_son.I13262 1044-922 calBCE (2830±20 BP, PSUAMS-2632) Pakistan




p.s
the high ANE component in the bmac culture could be related to west siberian hunter ancestery
that this culture had

In the far eastern part of this cline (eastern Iran and Turan) we also detect admixture related to West_Siberian_HG, proving that North Eurasian admixture impacted Turan well before the spread of Yamnaya-related Steppe pastoralists (Steppe_EMBA)

source : pdf
page : 7

 

[Ricardo]

BMAC were an essential Ancient Iranian Population, they had a primordial Indo-European culture, bronze, horses, religion, graves, constructions, warrior culture and they used to speak a kind of Indo-European language.

Gonur Tomb 2380 sample 17 (I1784): Dateof 2201-2031 calBCE (3720±30 BP, Poz-83485). Genetically male. Nicknamed the ‘Tomb of the Warrior,’ this was skeletally a male, 40 to 50 years old at the time of his death, flexed supine and oriented north-northwest. The neck of the man was broken, and this was the probable cause of his death. He was buried in a shaft grave on the southeast edge of the large cemetery. This very rich grave was accompanied by one bronze knife, one silver plate, one bronze vessel (diameter 16 cm and height12 cm), one bronze mace head in the form of a horse head, one bronze mace head with four spikes, one bronze semi-cylindrical artifact near the head, one bronze leaf-shaped arrowhead near the pelvis, and one bronze plate with perforations wrapped in linen cloth near the right shin.
Quintessential IE.

The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia via Pribislav :
I1784; 2201-2031 BC; Gonur; Turkmenistan; BMAC; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592
I12481; 3500-2800 BC; Geoksyur; Turkmenistan; Geoksyur_EN; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592
I8504; 3092-2925 BC; Geoksyur; Turkmenistan; Geoksyur_EN; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592

 

[kingjohn]

i am not sure
it is weird they had no steppe

From Bronze Age Turan, we report 69 ancient individuals (2300-1400 BCE) from four urban sites of the
Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) and its immediate successors. The great majority of individuals fall in a genetic cluster that is similar, albeit not identical, to the preceding groups in Turan in harboring a large proportion of early Iranian agriculturalist-related ancestry (~60% in the BMAC) with smaller components of Anatolian agriculturalist-related ancestry (~21%) and West_Siberian_HG-related ancestry (~13%) suggesting that the main BMAC cluster coalesced from preceding pre-urban populations in Turan (which in turn likely derived from earlier eastward spreads from Iran)

pdf
PAGE 8