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Thread: Who can help us for publishing our study about ancient DNA in north-central Iran?

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    Who can help us for publishing our study about ancient DNA in north-central Iran?

    I thought about the origin of Indo-Iranian people Narasimhan could help us, so I contacted him but he disappointed me when he related R1a-M17 to the origin and spread of Proto-Elamite.



    I and some Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Surena Firuzi, are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, who can help us in this project?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I thought about the origin of Indo-Iranian people Narasimhan could help us, so I contacted him but he disappointed me when he related R1a-M17 to the origin and spread of Proto-Elamite.



    I and some Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Surena Firuzi, are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, who can help us in this project?
    Where is the Data? I want to see that R1a-M17 sample. Going by your record I don't trust you because you are pushing your own agenda everywhere. Also you are unaware what R1a-M17 really means and link it to Indo-Iranians. Please for your own reputation as a historian. Take a week and read studies about ancient DNA related to IE.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Where is the Data? I want to see that R1a-M17 sample. Going by your record I don't trust you because you are pushing your own agenda everywhere. Also you are unaware what R1a-M17 really means and link it to Indo-Iranians. Please for your own reputation as a historian. Take a week and read studies about ancient DNA related to IE.
    He also messes around with wikipedia a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Where is the Data? I want to see that R1a-M17 sample. Going by your record I don't trust you because you are pushing your own agenda everywhere. Also you are unaware what R1a-M17 really means and link it to Indo-Iranians. Please for your own reputation as a historian. Take a week and read studies about ancient DNA related to IE.
    I also don't trust you, I am certainly interested to read studies about ancient DNA related to IE but not your "imaginary ancient IE people", the real ancient IE people were Hittites, Luwians, Indo-Iranian Mitanni and Mycenaeans, I have read almost all genetic studies regarding them, most of them say Iran is one of the most possible lands where these people originated, if you have read another thing, please tell me.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I also don't trust you, I am certainly interested to read studies about ancient DNA related to IE but not your "imaginary ancient IE people", the real ancient IE people were Hittites, Luwians, Indo-Iranian Mitanni and Mycenaeans, I have read almost all genetic studies regarding them, most of them say Iran is one of the most possible lands where these people originated, if you have read another thing, please tell me.
    answer to the question please
    if you want to be trusted you have to earn it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I also don't trust you, I am certainly interested to read studies about ancient DNA related to IE but not your "imaginary ancient IE people", the real ancient IE people were Hittites, Luwians, Indo-Iranian Mitanni and Mycenaeans, I have read almost all genetic studies regarding them, most of them say Iran is one of the most possible lands where these people originated, if you have read another thing, please tell me.
    .... There is no reason to trust me or not. Where is the sample ?

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    They're using an outdated PCR method. Its not R1a. And even if it was so what? We have R1a that is 12000 years old in NE Europe. As well as really old R1b and Q1a2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratchet_fan View Post
    He also messes around with wikipedia a lot.
    Also asks and answers his own questions on Quora.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    I thought about the origin of Indo-Iranian people Narasimhan could help us, so I contacted him but he disappointed me when he related R1a-M17 to the origin and spread of Proto-Elamite.



    I and some Iranian geneticists, like Dr. Surena Firuzi, are working on the origin of Indo-Iranian people, who can help us in this project?
    What help do you need?

    You could start it by helping US know what you're talking about, translating to English the study you linked (after all, I assume you know English well enough) and presenting the raw data of that study for other scientists outside Iran to analyze them and draw their own conclusions.

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    Ok, last night I talked with Mr. Firuzi, Iranian geneticist who has found R1a-M17 in Tepe Sialk and some other ancient sites in Iran, and asked more info about it but he said we should ignore Y-DNA and focus on mtDNA, he said males were just invaders but when we talk about migrations, women had the main role. He suggested that I read this genetic study: https://jarcs.ut.ac.ir/article_65670...9a8eefb7b1.pdf

    It says the main Indo-Iranian mtDNA haplogroup is R2 which has been found in the DNA of ancient skeletons in the southwest of Iran. Then it says the same thing that we read here: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/origi...s_europe.shtml

    R2 is found from northwest India and Pakistan to Iran, Georgia and Turkey. It could be connected to the Indo-Iranians.
    We read this geographical distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in this Persian article:

    J2: West Asia, Central Asia, South Europe and North Africa
    R1a: Central Asia, South Asia, Central Europe, North Europe and East Europe
    R1b: Europe, Caucasus, Central Asia, South Asia, Souh Africa, North Africa and Central Africa
    L: South Asia, Central Asia, Southwest Asia and Mediterranean

    And this migration map:



    So Y-DNA haplogroups L, R1a and R1b could be also related to Indo-Iranians but Indo-Iranian migrations related to MtDNA haplogroups R2 and R5.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    You're confused about chronologies (the spread of all those haplogroups out of Iran, IF it was indeed the homeland of them all, happened millennia before the Indo-Iranians even existed, let alone expanded to other parts of Eurasia) and also about the very basic difference between people once living in what is now Iran and Indo-Iranians the linguistic people. That's certainly because your a priori assumption is that Indo-Iranians were there since the beginning, maybe since primordial eras, so that chronology and sequence of events don't matter at all, and geographically Iranian, linguistically Iranic and culturally Indo-European are assumed to be one and only thing for you.

    Also, I really doubt the professional qualities of a geneticist that claims women matter more in migrations and that Y-DNA haplogroups should just be forgotten and don't matter at all because males were "just" invaders (as if invasions had a very little role in human demographic and cultural/linguistic history).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You're confused about chronologies (the spread of all those haplogroups out of Iran, IF it was indeed the homeland of them all, happened millennia before the Indo-Iranians even existed, let alone expanded to other parts of Eurasia) and also about the very basic difference between people once living in what is now Iran and Indo-Iranians the linguistic people. That's certainly because your a priori assumption is that Indo-Iranians were there since the beginning, maybe since primordial eras, so that chronology and sequence of events don't matter at all, and geographically Iranian, linguistically Iranic and culturally Indo-European are assumed to be one and only thing for you.

    Also, I really doubt the professional qualities of a geneticist that claims women matter more in migrations and that Y-DNA haplogroups should just be forgotten and don't matter at all because males were "just" invaders (as if invasions had a very little role in human demographic and cultural/linguistic history).
    This article talks about mid-second millennium BC, R1a exists in the east of Iran and R1b in the west of Iran but it doesn't talk about them in West Asia, so probably they came to Iran later, the origin of Indo-Europeans is another thing which dates back to a few thousands years earlier, it is possible that Indo-Iranian culture came from another land to the southwest of Iran in the mid-second millennium BC but this study says this culture in this period from this region spread to the east and west.
    We have Y-DNA haplogroups R1a in north of India, L in Pakistan, J2 in Iran and R1b in Turkey/Caucasus where ancient Indo-Iranians lived, but from another side we see mtDNA R2 in these lands, so Indo-Iranian culture could be related to the second one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You're confused about chronologies (the spread of all those haplogroups out of Iran, IF it was indeed the homeland of them all, happened millennia before the Indo-Iranians even existed, let alone expanded to other parts of Eurasia) and also about the very basic difference between people once living in what is now Iran and Indo-Iranians the linguistic people. That's certainly because your a priori assumption is that Indo-Iranians were there since the beginning, maybe since primordial eras, so that chronology and sequence of events don't matter at all, and geographically Iranian, linguistically Iranic and culturally Indo-European are assumed to be one and only thing for you.

    Also, I really doubt the professional qualities of a geneticist that claims women matter more in migrations and that Y-DNA haplogroups should just be forgotten and don't matter at all because males were "just" invaders (as if invasions had a very little role in human demographic and cultural/linguistic history).
    This article talks about mid-second millennium BC, R1a exists in the east of Iran and R1b in the west of Iran but it doesn't talk about them in West Asia, so probably they came to Iran later, the origin of Indo-Europeans is another thing which dates back to a few thousands years earlier, it is possible that Indo-Iranian culture came from another land to the southwest of Iran in the mid-second millennium BC but this study says this culture in this period from this region spread to the east and west.
    We have Y-DNA haplogroups R1a in north of India, L in Pakistan, J2 in Iran and R1b in Turkey/Caucasus where ancient Indo-Iranians lived, but from another side we see mtDNA R2 in these lands, so Indo-Iranian culture could be related to the second one.

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    Shahmiri show me the e-mail if you had a conversation with Mr.Firuzi. I really doubt that he said Y-DNA doesn't play any role. I will try my best and translate it into English.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Shahmiri show me the e-mail if you had a conversation with Mr.Firuzi. I really doubt that he said Y-DNA doesn't play any role. I will try my best and translate it into English.
    Last night we talked in instagram:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Last night we talked in instagram:


    Ok where is the rest ? He is obviously answering to another question you asked.

    Translation:
    "Do you think that this research can be checked ? How much can genetics help to understand the origin of Indian and Iranian culture ?"

    "The father line doesn't play any role and we did a mistake. We worked on the father line if you use mitochondrial line as the basis, the conclusion is ...."


    Still weird that he thinks Y-DNA(father line) doesn't play any role.

    Btw, can you send me a private message with his instagram. I want to ask him myself about the sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Ok where is the rest ? He is obviously answering to another question you asked.

    Translation:
    "Do you think that this research can be checked ? How much can genetics help to understand the origin of Indian and Iranian culture ?"

    "The father line doesn't play any role and we did a mistake. We worked on the father line if you use mitochondrial line as the basis, the conclusion is ...."


    Still weird that he thinks Y-DNA(father line) doesn't play any role.

    Btw, can you send me a private message with his instagram. I want to ask him myself about the sample.
    Yes but he replied by voice:



    Anyway I sent you a PM, you can talk to him yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Yes but he replied by voice:



    Anyway I sent you a PM, you can talk to him yourself.
    Ok but Surena Firuzi isn't a geneticist. He is a archaeologist. Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab is the main geneticst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Ok but Surena Firuzi isn't a geneticist. He is a archaeologist. Dr. Maziar Ashrafian Bonab is the main geneticst.
    Look at his Instagram page, he has studied both sciences, this is his thesis on genetics: https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Maziar Ashrafian Bonab was his advisor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Ok where is the rest ? He is obviously answering to another question you asked.

    Translation:
    "Do you think that this research can be checked ? How much can genetics help to understand the origin of Indian and Iranian culture ?"

    "The father line doesn't play any role and we did a mistake. We worked on the father line if you use mitochondrial line as the basis, the conclusion is ...."


    Still weird that he thinks Y-DNA(father line) doesn't play any role.

    Btw, can you send me a private message with his instagram. I want to ask him myself about the sample.
    both of them are important in my opinion .....
    but davidski in his blog
    write that if he will see a research
    with only mtdna and not y dna and autosomal
    he will not post it ......
    so obviously he thinks different from this iranian researcher ......
    if those r1a in iran are real they are pre indo-iranian
    and that will destroy davidski theory of
    we were r1a aryans who came from the east to iran .....
    known ancestery:
    sefhardi / aschenazi/ mizrahi / bulgarian
    direct paternal line back to damascus
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim + Serbian + Tuscan @ 1.234402

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    both of them are important in my opinion .....
    but davidski in his blog
    write that if he will see a research
    with only mtdna and not y dna and autosomal
    he will not post it ......
    so obviously he thinks different from this iranian researcher ......
    if those r1a in iran are real they are pre indo-iranian
    and that will destroy davidski theory of
    we were r1a aryans who came from the east to iran .....
    Yes I also think both are important but we know by now that the mtDNA south and north of the Caucasus is overwhelmingly the same. I also thought about the idea what if the language of the PIEs is actually from the maternal side. I know 3 IE languages and in all of them the term for native language is "mothertongue" or "language of the mother". But there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk 4000BC.

    @Shahmiri
    You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Yes I also think both are important but we know by now that the mtDNA south and north of the Caucasus is overwhelmingly the same. I also thought about the idea what if the language of the PIEs is actually from the maternal side. I know 3 IE languages and in all of them the term for native language is "mothertongue" or "language of the mother". But there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk 4000BC.

    @Shahmiri
    You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.

    so the aryan steppe r1a theory of davidski is still alive and
    kicking

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    so the aryan steppe r1a theory of davidski is still alive and
    kicking
    I wouldn't call it Davidski Theory many other people had this theory decades ago and even without aDNA it was clear that Indo-Iranians are from the steppes of Central Asia. I never thought something else. Only the first part of Indo-european history it still up to debate and needs a solid explanation including ancient DNA evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    I wouldn't call it Davidski Theory many other people had this theory decades ago and even without aDNA it was clear that Indo-Iranians are from the steppes of Central Asia. I never thought something else. Only the first part of Indo-european history it still up to debate and needs a solid explanation including ancient DNA evidence.
    ok

    i am also intrested in those indo-iranians
    you know in ancient dna
    e-m123*( without m34 mutation ) was found
    in those remains in iron age north pakistan
    and also in north east kazachstan a saka dated to 500-600 bc was
    found who carry e-m123*

    the first indo -iranians were probably r1a -z93 and some clades of r1b
    but they absorbed some other haplogroups during there way from east europe
    to the south

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shahmiri View Post
    Look at his Instagram page, he has studied both sciences, this is his thesis on genetics: https://ganj-old.irandoc.ac.ir/articles/515891 Maziar Ashrafian Bonab was his advisor.
    Maybe she became feminist! A good thing for society, at some level, but a bad one for some sciences (as the male chauvinism is)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    But there is no R1a sample in Teppe Sialk 4000BC.

    @Shahmiri
    You really are weird guy and also a liar. I think you should be banned by some admin of the forum. How dare you posting a 11 year old study/abstract and say they have "just" found a new sample you freaking idiot.
    How old are you?! Where did I say they have "just" found a new sample? You can ask Ashrafian Bonab and Firuzi, they still believe one sample in Sialk is R1a-M17, who said it is not? Why do you lie? You should be actually banned, if you don't prove what you said.

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