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Thread: Lactase Persistence Over the Last 3,000 Years

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I agree, intolerances makes you ill firstly with specific low-level symptoms, but can evolve in many different ways, including cancers, tumors, auto-immune diseases etc...

    But especially in a survival contexte, because we dont know how all those ancient populations reacted to lactase or gluten for exemple, symptoms linked with gluten or dairy could be seen as " usual buisnesses ". And the transition between being sick and not and why, was not clear for them.

    To be more explicit, i dont think symptoms of eating gluten or lactase by people who didn't tolerate them was as obvious as the symptoms you get from a cobra bait.

    Therefore, i think we can easily be tricked by the fact that farmers or herders could have been huge crops ( gluten ) or dairy consumers without really being aware to how it harmed them because they didn't have lactase persistence. Wich also could have tricked us on the fact, that yamnaya ancestry clearly linked with herding culture, should have had those tolerances, but actually did not, or not much.

    Especially in the contexte of Triticeae and Fabaceae, it's amazing how wide this culture spread, initially from the middle-east, then in all directions, maybe with already daily gastric symptoms.

    Now, did the culture of dairy consumptions clearly peaked after a said population had the genes for lactase tolerance would be interesting to know.
    I'll start with the bolded comment. There is absolutely no way you can know that.

    There is, indeed, no way either of us can know PRECISELY how the people who lived before the first millennium BC who lacked even one derived allele for lactase persistence reacted to dairy products. That's why I said that it's possible that their gut biomes might have been slightly different.

    The closest we can get is to test those people today who are having lactase intolerance symptoms. Now, I happen to be one of those people who actually was tested for it. In those days there was no testing for the LP gene. Lactase non-persistence or lactose intolerance was diagnosed through symptomology.

    In my case, suddenly, in my late twenties, after having eaten tons of cheese, ice cream, puddings, butter in cooking etc. all my life I developed severe gastrointestinal symptoms. Not only did I present to the doctors as in pain and dehydrated, but I had lost about twenty pounds over a two and a half to three month period. Given I started out at about 120 pounds, it was serious. Given my history the doctors initially suspected some sort of cancer. After blood tests, upper GI series, lower GI series, Xrays up the wazoo and finding nothing, they finally decided to try what they called "food allergies". The actual pin ***** arm food allergy test showed nothing so the gastroenterologist decided to start me on what they call an "elimination diet" ironically enough. The first thing he told me to do was to cut out all dairy to "cleanse" my system. After a few weeks, when my symptoms did indeed abate, they administered the actual test, which is to give you straight lactose and then wait to see what happens. I wouldn't wish it on a dog. I might wish it on my enemies. :)

    I've learned to manage it. No drinking milk, of course; no butter on toast, ice cream once in a blue moon; limit my cheese intake to mostly hard cheese and moderate amounts of it, discipline myself to have a slice of pizza maybe once a week or less, and take lactase pills.

    If ancient people had a reaction even half as bad as mine it would indeed have killed them, and quickly.

    Now, for the third time, maybe it wasn't as severe for them, but I wouldn't bet on it being totally benign either, or all those northern Italians of the first millennium BC would have started drinking the milk their cows produced as well, and we know that in the first millennium BC and during the Republic and Empire, they remarked on how much dairy the Celts and Germanics consumed and that they drank milk, but although the "Italics" certainly had dairy farms and made cheese, they didn't drink the stuff.

    Oh, the ironic thing about all of this is that I carry the derived allele; both of them, so I should have no problem whatsoever with dairy.

    I've discussed it with others who have the same history and genetics, some Poles among them, and all I can figure out is that in some people it just "turns off" with age, although not in infancy, as happens with people who carry the ancestral alleles.

    Someone asked so where did it mutate. I don't think anyone really knows, although I remember a relatively old paper which speculated it happened somewhere in central Europe. We do know it was only highly selected for starting three thousand years ago.


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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Hmm... to begin with the common symptoms of lactose intolerance are an inconvenience at best, big one today with the variety of calories we can consume, but I assume in the distant past it was a non factor.

    Most Balkan people as well as Turks will have yogurt or cream with their wheat based Bureks and what not, and judging by the map of lactose persistence that is not indicative of the fact.

    I checked lactose intolerance symptoms and I have them sometimes. I still eat icecream, have all types of soft and hard cheeses, love dhallë or airan with Burek, and my favourite Pizza is Quatro Formagi. From what I understand you can increase your threshold tolerance by just like... consuming lactose...

    Still do not understand what the big deal is to necessitate such reactions.
    You are misinformed, again.

    Please read post number 26.

    If Albanians can drink milk with no ill effects, perhaps you have your Slavic ancestry to thank. That's one northern invasion we missed after the fall of the Empire.

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    To my knowledge there is no European V88 Mesolithic sample which carries any derived allele for lactase persistence, including the "European" version. In fact I don't remember any of the Mesolithic samples carrying it, although perhaps a stray one did.

    How the V88 carriers in West Africa got it I have no idea. I do know that the Fulani, for example, moved to their present locale in the first millennium AD., from more eastern Africa if I remember correctly.

    Happy to be corrected if that's wrong.

    The Berbers also carry this "European" version of a lactase persistence allele, but perhaps the easy answer for them is via Spain and the expulsion of Moriscos who settled in western North Africa and the sweep following that.

    I'd also add that the "European" version, as well as the probably Arabia originating ones are all present in East Africa. It's a trait found mainly among Afro-Asiatic speakers.
    Last edited by Angela; 02-08-20 at 06:00.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You are misinformed, again.

    Please read post number 26.

    If Albanians can drink milk with no ill effects, perhaps you have your Slavic ancestry to thank. That's one northern invasion we missed after the fall of the Empire.
    Yikes! Angela.

    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...471-2148-10-36


    Interpolated map of Old World LP phenotype frequencies. Dots represent collection locations. Colours and colour key show the frequencies of the LP phenotype estimated by surface interpolation.

    Initially I planed to highlight the errors in your reply with color... but it would have ended up looking like a color blinds version of a rainbow...

    First of all you contradict yourself. Unless you like arguing with yourself... keep in mind genes are not the only way humans metabolize lactose. As you very correctly, pointed out earlier, gut bacteria can help.

    Secondly, what is this? "If Albanians can drink milk with no ill effects, perhaps you have your Slavic ancestry to thank." Can not even make sense of the logic you're using. First, what is wrong with Slavic ancestry? Secondly, did the Slav ancestry help the Arabs become lactose persistent? Or maybe it helped North-West Africans.


    "You are misinformed" - I guess anecdotes are better than facts... https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/lactose-intolerance/


    Jeez, get it together.

    PS:Turks according to the map don't have lactose persistence, yet eat this cheesy burek for breakfast gulping it down with ayran...




    PPS:
    Excerpt from the paper I linked in case you don't bother clicking it ...

    Conclusion

    Lactase persistence genotype data is currently insufficient to explain lactase persistence phenotype frequency in much of western and southern Africa, southeastern Europe, the Middle East and parts of central and southern Asia. We suggest that further studies of genetic variation in these regions should reveal additional nucleotide variants that are associated with lactase persistence.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    'How can you eat dairy if you lack the gene for digesting it? Fermented milk may be key, ancient Mongolian study suggests'

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...be-key-ancient


    Ayran is a fermented drink.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yikes! Angela.

    https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.co...471-2148-10-36


    Interpolated map of Old World LP phenotype frequencies. Dots represent collection locations. Colours and colour key show the frequencies of the LP phenotype estimated by surface interpolation.

    Initially I planed to highlight the errors in your reply with color... but it would have ended up looking like a color blinds version of a rainbow...

    First of all you contradict yourself. Unless you like arguing with yourself... keep in mind genes are not the only way humans metabolize lactose. As you very correctly, pointed out earlier, gut bacteria can help.

    Secondly, what is this? "If Albanians can drink milk with no ill effects, perhaps you have your Slavic ancestry to thank." Can not even make sense of the logic you're using. First, what is wrong with Slavic ancestry? Secondly, did the Slav ancestry help the Arabs become lactose persistent? Or maybe it helped North-West Africans.


    "You are misinformed" - I guess anecdotes are better than facts... https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/lactose-intolerance/


    Jeez, get it together.
    No, you get it together, and show some respect.

    It's not just anecdote; it's medical fact, had you ever bothered to do some more research and think it through.

    "Symptoms can range from mild discomfort to a severe reaction, depending on how much lactase the person produces, and how much dairy produce they consume.They include:


    The person may have a sudden urge to use the bathroom 1 to 2 hours after consuming lactose. In severe cases, dehydration may occur."

    Some people are luckier than others in terms of the severity of their reaction. Got it?

    I didn't say there's anything wrong with having Slavic ancestry. Stop projecting your biases onto me. It is a fact that Balkanites, even including Greeks, seem to have fewer problems digesting lactose than Italians. The obvious answer might be slightly different peoples migrating into your area. If that bothers you it's your problem, not mine. I'm getting tired of people thinking they can read my mind. I only wish my alleles were still working and I didn't have to limit my dairy intake.

    Last time I checked no Balkanites or Greeks carry the Arabian derived lactase persistence alleles present in Africa so that was an irrelevant and insulting comment. Whatever lactase persistence alleles you carry came to you from other Europeans.

    That map is incorrect as far as Italy is concerned. The study I posted tested more than a thousand Italians, and so is clearly more accurate, and the LEAST lactase persistence is in the Center. Didn't bother to read it?

    I have said ad nauseam that cheese, yogurt, and yes, fermented dairy products contain less lactose and so can be eaten in moderation even by people who don't carry the derived allele.

    SO WHAT?

    We've known for years that ancient Anatolians were able to eat dairy products in the form of cheese as were the EEF.

    We're not discussing that. What don't you get?

    What does that have to do with the fact that there was clearly selection, in fact a hard sweep in certain areas, for an allele which lets you consume raw milk by the quart if you choose, and soft cheeses and on an on.

    There had to be a benefit for those who carry the allele, as there is definitely a negative for those who don't. Not that cultures can't survive quite well without it as I've been saying for years. The sheer size of the Chinese population should tell us that.

    Try to follow the logical trajectory of a discussion, will you please?

    The next post like this I see you're going on a long break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    'How can you eat dairy if you lack the gene for digesting it? Fermented milk may be key, ancient Mongolian study suggests'

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...be-key-ancient


    Ayran is a fermented drink.
    Really interesting article.

    "The findings present a puzzle, challenging an oft-told tale of how lactose tolerance evolved. From other studies, “We know now dairying was practiced 4000 years before we see lactase persistence,” says Christina Warinner of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) in Jena, Germany. “Mongolia shows us how.”"

    "
    The calculus yielded milk proteins from sheep, goats, and bovines such as yak or cow. Yet analysis of DNA from teeth and leg bones showed the herders were lactose intolerant. And they carried only a trace of DNA from the Yamnaya, as the team reports in a paper published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). “They’re exploiting these animals for dairying even though they’re not lactase persistent,” Collins says."

    "
    That disconnect between dairy and DNA isn’t limited to Mongolia. Jessica Hendy, a co-author of the PNAS paper, recently found milk proteins on pots at Çatalhöyük in Turkey, which at 9000 years old dates to the beginnings of domestication, 4 millennia before lactase persistence appears. “There seem to be milk proteins popping up all over the place, and the wonderful cultural evolution we expected to see isn’t happening,” Collins says."


    Excerpts from the paper I linked:

    "
    Conclusion

    Lactase persistence genotype data is currently insufficient to explain lactase persistence phenotype frequency in much of western and southern Africa, southeastern Europe, the Middle East and parts of central and southern Asia. We suggest that further studies of genetic variation in these regions should reveal additional nucleotide variants that are associated with lactase persistence."

    "ConclusionIn this study we have demonstrated that lactase persistence genotype data is currently insufficient to explain lactase persistence phenotype frequency in western and eastern Africa and several other Old World regions. The identification of additional LP-associated or LP-causative alleles, especially in these regions, will help not only in developing a better understanding of the evolution of LP but also in elucidating the physiological mechanisms that underlie the trait. The interpolation and mapping approach that we have applied in this study may also be of value in studying the underlying genetic basis and evolution of other phenotypic variation that impacts on human health, such as the distribution of functional variation in drug metabolising enzymes [42]."

    Given these two papers my takeaway is that for one we don't have the whole picture on lactose persistence genotype data, and additional nucleotide variants associated with lactose tolerance are yet to be identified. And futhermore that gut biome bacteria might have provided a "cultural" solution to the problem of lactose persistence as opposed to the genetic mutation solution through selection.



    @Angela

    You are right. "Some people are luckier than others in terms of the severity of their reaction."

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    Yogurt also supposedly originated in the Middle East during the Neolithic so there is some evidence to the idea that EEF and their ancestors consumed dairy without the alleles. I also carry two copies of the derived allele which I'm thankful for. I can't imagine my life without dairy.

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    Also back when anthrogenica was a decent forum I think there was a good discussion on how most Asian populations (especially those with Indo-Iranian ancestry) have more 22018*A(rs182549) than 13910*T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Really interesting article.

    "The findings present a puzzle, challenging an oft-told tale of how lactose tolerance evolved. From other studies, “We know now dairying was practiced 4000 years before we see lactase persistence,” says Christina Warinner of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History (MPI-SHH) in Jena, Germany. “Mongolia shows us how.”"

    "
    The calculus yielded milk proteins from sheep, goats, and bovines such as yak or cow. Yet analysis of DNA from teeth and leg bones showed the herders were lactose intolerant. And they carried only a trace of DNA from the Yamnaya, as the team reports in a paper published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). “They’re exploiting these animals for dairying even though they’re not lactase persistent,” Collins says."

    "
    That disconnect between dairy and DNA isn’t limited to Mongolia. Jessica Hendy, a co-author of the PNAS paper, recently found milk proteins on pots at Çatalhöyük in Turkey, which at 9000 years old dates to the beginnings of domestication, 4 millennia before lactase persistence appears. “There seem to be milk proteins popping up all over the place, and the wonderful cultural evolution we expected to see isn’t happening,” Collins says."


    Excerpts from the paper I linked:

    "
    Conclusion

    Lactase persistence genotype data is currently insufficient to explain lactase persistence phenotype frequency in much of western and southern Africa, southeastern Europe, the Middle East and parts of central and southern Asia. We suggest that further studies of genetic variation in these regions should reveal additional nucleotide variants that are associated with lactase persistence."

    "ConclusionIn this study we have demonstrated that lactase persistence genotype data is currently insufficient to explain lactase persistence phenotype frequency in western and eastern Africa and several other Old World regions. The identification of additional LP-associated or LP-causative alleles, especially in these regions, will help not only in developing a better understanding of the evolution of LP but also in elucidating the physiological mechanisms that underlie the trait. The interpolation and mapping approach that we have applied in this study may also be of value in studying the underlying genetic basis and evolution of other phenotypic variation that impacts on human health, such as the distribution of functional variation in drug metabolising enzymes [42]."

    Given these two papers my takeaway is that for one we don't have the whole picture on lactose persistence genotype data, and additional nucleotide variants associated with lactose tolerance are yet to be identified. And futhermore that gut biome bacteria might have provided a "cultural" solution to the problem of lactose persistence as opposed to the genetic mutation solution through selection.



    @Angela

    You are right. "Some people are luckier than others in terms of the severity of their reaction."
    You do love to repeat what I've already said more than once as if it's a major discovery you've just made.

    Can't say I love the passive aggression either, but it's better than what came before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To my knowledge there is no European V88 Mesolithic sample which carries any derived allele for lactase persistence, including the "European" version. In fact I don't remember any of the Mesolithic samples carrying it, although perhaps a stray one did.

    How the V88 carriers in West Africa got it I have no idea. I do know that the Fulani, for example, moved to their present locale in the first millennium AD., from more eastern Africa if I remember correctly.

    The evidence indicates that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans and migrated into Africa via western Europe.


    "By inspecting our reference panel of western Eurasian ancient individuals, we identified R1b-V88 markers in 10 mainland European ancient samples, all dating to before the Steppe expansion (>3k years BCE). Two very basal R1b-V88 (with several markers still in the ancestral state) appear in Serbian hunter-gatherers as old as 9,000 BCE, which supports a Mesolithic origin of the R1b-V88 clade in or near this broad region. The haplotype appears to have become associated with the Mediterranean Neolithic expansion – as it is absent in early and middle Neolithic central Europe, but found in an individual buried at the Els Trocs site in the Pyrenees (modern Aragon, Spain), dated 5,178-5,066 BCE and in eleven ancient Sardinians of our sample. Interestingly, markers of the R1b-V88 subclade R1b-V2197, which is at present day found in Sardinians and most African R1b-V88 carriers, are derived only in the Els Trocs individual and two ancient Sardinian individuals (MA89, 3,370-3,110 BCE, MA110 1,220-1,050 BCE). MA110 additionally carries derived markers of the R1b-V2197 subclade R1b-V35, which is at present-day almost exclusively found in Sardinians.

    This configuration suggests that the V88 branch first appeared in eastern Europe, mixed into Early European farmer (EEF) individuals (after putatively sex-biased admixture), and then spread with EEF to the western Mediterranean. A west Eurasian R1b-V88 origin is further supported by a recent phylogenetic analysis that puts modern Sardinian carrier haplotypes basal to the African R1b-V88 haplotypes. The putative coalescence times between the Sardinian and African branches inferred there fall into the Neolithic Subpluvial (“green Sahara”, about 7,000 to 3,000 years BCE). Previous observations of autosomal traces of Holocene admixture with Eurasians for several Chadic populations provide further support for a speculative hypothesis that at least some amounts of EEF ancestry crossed the Sahara southwards. Genetic analysis of Neolithic human remains in the Sahara from the Neolithic Subpluvial would provide key insights into the timing and specific route of R1b-V88 into Africa - and whether this haplogroup was associated with a maritime wave of Cardial Neolithic along Western Mediterranean coasts and subsequent movement across the Sahara.

    Overall, our analysis provides evidence that R1b-V88 traces back to eastern European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and later spread with the Neolithic expansion into Iberia and Sardinia.” [and from there into Africa]

    Marcus et al. 2020




    Marcus et al. 2020


    'Population history and genetic adaptation of the Fulani nomads: inferences from genome-wide data and the lactase persistence trait' (Vicente et al. 2019)


    “Based on genome-wide analyses we propose that ancestors of the Fulani population experienced admixture between a West African group and a group carrying both European and North African ancestries. This admixture was likely coupled with newly adopted herding practices, as it resulted in signatures of genetic adaptation in contemporary Fulani genomes, including the control element of the LCT gene enabling carriers to digest lactose throughout their lives. The lactase persistence (LP) trait in the Fulani is conferred by the presence of the allele T-13910, which is also present at high frequencies in Europe. We establish that the T-13910 LP allele in Fulani individuals analysed in this study lies on a European haplotype background thus excluding parallel convergent evolution. (…) Our findings suggest that Eurasian admixture and the European LP allele was introduced into the Fulani through contact with a North African population/s. (…)

    The T-13910 allele is reported to be the key variant regulating maintenance of LCT gene expression in European adults. This variant is generally not detected in most East African and Middle Eastern populations, where other LP variants are observed instead. Fulani populations living mainly in the western Sahel/Savannah belt, however, carry the European-LP mutation with frequencies ranging from 18 to 60%. (…)

    European admixture in Fulani genomes has been reported in previous studies (…)

    We started by investigating the genetic affinities of the Fulani from Ziniaré in Burkina Faso using a set of comparative populations from Africa, Europe and Near East. The principal component analysis, PCA, clusters the Fulani groups with other West Africans while displaying some genetic affinity to Eurasians. This prevalent West African component was also visible in population structure analysis, where the Fulani from Ziniaré in Burkina Faso have ancestry fractions of 74.5% West African, 21.4% European and 4.1% East African origin at K = 3. We observe a similar genetic structure among all other Fulani groups in our dataset, except for the Fulani from Gambia. We notice that some individuals in this group display a higher European ancestry component than others, suggesting some degree of sub-structure in this population. (…)

    To examine which particular source population was a likely candidate for this postulated European contact, we extracted all European-like segments across the Fulani genomes. … The European-like segments showed the highest shared drift with Sardinians and French Basque populations … A previous study has reported a Mozabite-like (i.e. Berber-like) component in the Fulani from Burkina Faso and Niger, raising the possibility that the source population for the European admixture fraction (and LP mutation) could be of North African origin. … the ancestry components of the Mozabite group could explain the non-West African genetic variation in the Fulani. ... The identification of the specific ancestry fragments flanking European-like segments, supervised admixture and model based analyses support the view that the European ancestry in Fulani genomes is coupled to their North African component (...)

    Fregel and colleagues (2018) linked the diffusion of people across Gibraltar to Neolithic migrations and the Neolithic development in North Africa. This trans-Gibraltar mixed ancestry was previously observed in the Fulani mitochondrial gene-pool that links the Fulani to south-western Europe based on mtDNA haplogroups H1cb1 and U5b1b1b.”

    Vicente et al. 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'd also add that the "European" version, as well as the probably Arabia originating ones are all present in East Africa. It's a trait found almost only among Afro-Asiatic speakers.
    The 'European' version (13910*T) is absent in East African samples, however it might be present in Northeast Africa as it's found at low levels in the Levant:


    13910*T frequency:

    Bedouin (Negev, Israel): 3.1%
    Druze (Carmel, Israel): 2.1%
    Palestinian (central Israel): 3.9%
    Lebanese: 4.2%

    Besaglieri et al. 2004






    Ranciaro et al. 2014

    Last edited by Philjames100; 02-08-20 at 15:23.

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    However, the East African LP allele 13907*G is apparently closely related to the European 13910*T allele:


    Independent Introduction of Two Lactase-Persistence Alleles into Human Populations Reflects Different History of Adaptation to Milk Culture (Enattah et al. 2008)


    "The European T−13910 and the earlier identified East African G−13907 LP allele share the same ancestral background and most likely the same history, probably related to the same cattle domestication event. (...)


    analysis indicates that LP alleles carrying T−13910 and G−13907 variants share a common ancestral allelic background, here referred as H84, whereas the G−13915 LP allele has a completely different background allele, here referred as H107. To obtain a better resolution of the background alleles for these variants, we extended the DNA region used in network analysis to the wider ∼31 kb segment and constructed the network with a total of 47 biallelic variants. The analysis confirmed that the T−13910 and G−13907 alleles indeed reside on the same ancestral background allele, LNP H84, whereas the C−3712-G−13915 allele resides on a different ancestral background allele, LNP H107. We further monitored these haplotypes up to 1.1 Mb by typing additional distant markers. The allele H84 was almost intact up to 1.1 Mb, providing a probable genetic reflection to shared cattle domestication culture by Eurasians and Africans in the very recent history (i.e., within 10,000 years), most probably in the Middle East. (...)


    The network analysis would indicate that the European T−13910 and the East African G−13907 LP alleles share a common ancestral allelic background (here labeled as H84) whereas the Arab G−13915 allele has a completely different background allele (labeled here as H107). ... the recent report of Ingram et al. would support our interpretation; they also showed that the G−13907 allele most probably occurred on the so-called A haplotype background, the same haplotype that harbors the T−13910 allele (which we called here H98). ... the network analysis based on the variants over 98 kb presented by the Tishkoff et al. shows that the T−13910 and G−13907 alleles are very near to each other and probably share the same ancestral background allele. This result would justify the hypothesis that the European T−13910 and East African G−13907 LP alleles might have arisen because of a common domestication event of the cattle whereas the C−3712-G−13915 allele in Arabia most likely arose due to the separate domestication event of camels. ... the presence of the LP T−13910 allele among three North African Berber populations (from Morocco and Algeria) has been taken as a genetic evidence for shared origin of the dairy culture between North African populations and Eurasians. Additional analyses of the East African samples could shed light on the origin of the G−13907 allele and its relationships to the domestication of milk-producing species within Africa."


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253962/




    13907*G has only been found at a relatively high rate in the Beja from Sudan (21%), and at a lower rate in Afro-Asiatic populations from Kenya (c.5%).

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC2672153/#SD7


    According to Hassan et al. 2008 the Beja have 5% R1b, apparently R1b-V88. No idea whether it's related in this case.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beja_people#Genetics

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....e-Nubian/page3


    "the Nubians appear to have sustained considerable gene flow from Asia and Europe together with the Beja.”


    (Hassan et al 2008)


    “Beja groups, who generally reside in eastern areas of Sudan close to the sea, show high non-African admixture in all tests”


    (Hollfelder et al, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The evidence indicates that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans and migrated into Africa via western Europe.






    Marcus et al. 2020
    As for your bolded comment, there's nothing in that paper or the graphics which indicates anything of the kind. That's pure speculation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    The 'European' version (13910*T) is absent in East Africa, however it might be present in Northeast Africa as it's found at low levels in the Levant:


    13910*T frequency:

    Bedouin (Negev, Israel): 3.1%
    Druze (Carmel, Israel): 2.1%
    Palestinian (central Israel): 3.9%
    Lebanese: 4.2%

    Besaglieri et al. 2004






    Ranciaro et al. 2014



    This is the spread of the Fulani people in Africa:


    My interpretation of the paper I posted is that some of the Fulani in East Africa carry the European version.

    From the map "you" posted of the "European version", only some of the Fulani apparently carry it, and there looks like a clear trail from the Berbers.

    Now, to get back to your original point about V88.

    No Mesolithic samples to my knowledge carry the derived "European" version of the lactase persistence allele, and that includes the V88 samples.
    There is no data to my knowledge indicating that the people who carried V88 were any more likely than any other group which admixed with the Near Eastern farmers who came to Europe to become "herders".

    Whether it was specifically the V88 group which carried lactase persistence to Spain is unknown and unknowable. I doubt lactase persistence spread only through people who carried one y lineage.

    Certainly, lactase persistence made it to the Berbers of Western North Africa. I'm not aware of there being huge numbers of V88 people there, however.

    It's certainly possible it went from there to West Africa and then inland and that the group which carried it happened to also carry V88.

    If it makes you happy to believe that, believe it.

    It's immaterial to me if that's the way it happened. It's just a hypothesis, however, an unproven one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for your bolded comment, there's nothing in that paper or the graphics which indicates anything of the kind. That's pure speculation.
    You left out the second text I quoted:


    Population history and genetic adaptation of the Fulani nomads: inferences from genome-wide data and the lactase persistence trait (Vicente et al., 2019)

    “Based on genome-wide analyses we propose that ancestors of the Fulani population experienced admixture between a West African group and a group carrying both European and North African ancestries. This admixture was likely coupled with newly adopted herding practices, as it resulted in signatures of genetic adaptation in contemporary Fulani genomes, including the control element of the LCT gene enabling carriers to digest lactose throughout their lives. The lactase persistence (LP) trait in the Fulani is conferred by the presence of the allele T-13910, which is also present at high frequencies in Europe. We establish that the T-13910 LP allele in Fulani individuals analysed in this study lies on a European haplotype background thus excluding parallel convergent evolution. (…)

    Our findings suggest that Eurasian admixture and the European LP allele was introduced into the Fulani through contact with a North African population/s. (…)

    The T-13910 allele is reported to be the key variant regulating maintenance of LCT gene expression in European adults. This variant is generally not detected in most East African and Middle Eastern populations, where other LP variants are observed instead. Fulani populations living mainly in the western Sahel/Savannah belt, however, carry the European-LP mutation with frequencies ranging from 18 to 60%. (…) European admixture in Fulani genomes has been reported in previous studies (…)

    We started by investigating the genetic affinities of the Fulani from Ziniaré in Burkina Faso using a set of comparative populations from Africa, Europe and Near East. The principal component analysis, PCA, clusters the Fulani groups with other West Africans while displaying some genetic affinity to Eurasians. This prevalent West African component was also visible in population structure analysis, where the Fulani from Ziniaré in Burkina Faso have ancestry fractions of 74.5% West African, 21.4% European and 4.1% East African origin at K = 3. We observe a similar genetic structure among all other Fulani groups in our dataset, except for the Fulani from Gambia. We notice that some individuals in this group display a higher European ancestry component than others, suggesting some degree of sub-structure in this population. (…)

    To examine which particular source population was a likely candidate for this postulated European contact, we extracted all European-like segments across the Fulani genomes. … The European-like segments showed the highest shared drift with Sardinians and French Basque populations … A previous study has reported a Mozabite-like (i.e. Berber-like) component in the Fulani from Burkina Faso and Niger, raising the possibility that the source population for the European admixture fraction (and LP mutation) could be of North African origin. … the ancestry components of the Mozabite group could explain the non-West African genetic variation in the Fulani. (…)

    The identification of the specific ancestry fragments flanking European-like segments, supervised admixture and model based analyses support the view that the European ancestry in Fulani genomes is coupled to their North African component (...)

    Fregel and colleagues (2018) linked the diffusion of people across Gibraltar to Neolithic migrations and the Neolithic development in North Africa. This trans-Gibraltar mixed ancestry was previously observed in the Fulani mitochondrial gene-pool that links the Fulani to south-western Europe based on mtDNA haplogroups H1cb1 and U5b1b1b.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6888939/


    also:


    Internal diversification of non-Sub-Saharan haplogroups in Sahelian populations and the spread of pastoralism beyond the Sahara (Kulichova et al. 2017)

    “We show that age estimates of the maternal lineage H1cb1, occurring almost exclusively in the Fulani, point to the time when the first cattle herders settled the Sahel/Savannah belt. Similar age estimates were obtained for paternal lineage R1b-V88, which occurs today in the Fulani but also in other, mostly pastoral populations. Maternal clade U5b1b1b, reported earlier in the Berbers, shows a shallower age, suggesting another possibly independent input into the Sahelian pastoralist gene pool. (…)

    The fact that haplotypes having –22,018*G and –13,910*T LCT alleles are shared by the Fulani from Northern Cameroon, the Mozabite Berbers from Algeria and European populations (Lokki et al., 2011; Ranciaro et al., 2014) can be taken as another signal of an ancient pastoralist migration from outside Africa (…)

    In the present study, we demonstrate that the age estimates of West Eurasian uniparental haplogroups U5b and H1cb – which, in the Sahel/Savannah belt, occur more often in pastoralists (especially the Fulani) – are chronologically concordant with the introduction of livestock to the region (as documented independently by archaeological data).

    Inferring the geographical location of the ancestral West Eurasian population that was the source of these Holocene inputs to the present-day Sahel/Savannah uniparental gene pool can be approached from a phylogeographical perspective. … It is well attested that H1 emerged in Iberia/South Europe (Pereira et al., 2005b) … The parental lineage U5b1b1, aged 9 ka, is highly dispersed from the Saami in Scandinavia to Berbers in North Africa, indicating the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as the most parsimonious source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers repopulating the entire region heading both north and south (Achilli et al., 2005). The most probable hypothesis is, therefore, that the U5b1b1b found in the Fulani today is derived from North African U5b1b1 ancestors. Both H1cb and U5b1b1b seem to be excellent markers of European – and not Near Eastern – ancestry inputs into the contemporary Fulani population. (…)

    Apart from the results of the analysis of uniparental haplogroups in this study, there is other support for European inputs into the Sahelian population in the literature. A couple of genome-wide datasets have also revealed an outlier position and/or a European/West Eurasian ancestry of the Fulani (Henn et al., 2012; Tishkoff et al., 2009). In addition, other analyses of the Fulani collected in the Sahel have detected signatures of positive selection for Eurasian alleles in the TAS2R genes responsible for detection of natural alkaloids such as quinine and strychnine (Triska et al., 2015).”

    https://www.docdroid.net/0mL7YV0/fulani-mtdnay-dna-pdf


    Distribution map of the lactase persistence allelle 13910*T, suggesting migration into Africa from western Europe:



    Liebert et al., 2017
    Last edited by Philjames100; 02-08-20 at 19:44.

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    African cattle mostly belong to the mtDNA haplogroup T1 ...

    T1 has been found in Iberian cattle dating from 5200 BC, before the appearance of the earliest cattle in Northwest Africa:


    Detecting the T1 cattle haplogroup in the Iberian Peninsula from Neolithic to medieval times: new clues to continuous cattle migration through time (Colominas et al., 2015)

    “Our analyses show that haplogroup T3, which dominates among modern domestic European cattle, was the most frequently occurring haplogroup in Iberia since the Neolithic. However, our data also show a presence of T1 haplotypes in Iberia from the Neolithic period through the Bronze Age into the Roman period and the Middle Ages. The presence of T1 haplotypes in Neolithic Iberia, and their chronological and spatial recurrence, clearly demonstrates that T1 was not solely a Muslim or later introduction, as some have argued), though additional and/ or new T1 haplotypes may have been introduced during these periods.

    The Neolithic T1 cattle in our data most likely represent populations that expanded out of the Near East in the company of early farmers moving along the Mediterranean coastal route. T1 haplotypes could have reached the coast of eastern Iberia from the Near East as early as ~5400 cal. BC, when human migrations and contacts through the Mediterranean basin are archaeologically attested. Domestic cattle are well documented along the western Mediterranean and coast of Spain at this time, with La Draga being one of the earliest Neolithic Iberian sites where domestic cattle are found. The site of La Draga has close connections with the Mediterranean route of diffusion of the Neolithic, both culturally and due to its location on the eastern coast of the Peninsula. As the earliest cattle in the coastal areas of northwest Africa are dated significantly later than the earliest Neolithic farming sites found there, it is unlikely that cattle could have arrived at La Draga via an African route. The presence of the T1 haplotype at La Draga (northwest Spain, 5200 BC) implies, therefore, that this haplotype travelled with the earliest wave of domestic cattle from the Near East to the north-western Mediterranean. (…)

    Our results show the presence of the two most common haplogroups in domestic cattle in Europe (T3) and Africa (T1) in three early Neolithic sites in Iberia. … Our results provide important data about the phylogeny of cattle haplogroup T1 in the Iberian Peninsula, and open new issues about cattle movements through time. Further studies of the geographical distribution of the T1 haplogroup in Europe prior to ~5400 cal. BC, when the Neolithic arrived into the Iberian Peninsula, would shed more light on this topic.”


    https://www.docdroid.net/Bpi31Ps/col...ria-cattle-pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    African cattle mostly belong to the mtDNA haplogroup T1 ...

    T1 has been found in Iberian cattle dating from 5200 BC, before the appearance of the earliest cattle in Northwest Africa:


    Detecting the T1 cattle haplogroup in the Iberian Peninsula from Neolithic to medieval times: new clues to continuous cattle migration through time (Colominas et al., 2015)

    “Our analyses show that haplogroup T3, which dominates among modern domestic European cattle, was the most frequently occurring haplogroup in Iberia since the Neolithic. However, our data also show a presence of T1 haplotypes in Iberia from the Neolithic period through the Bronze Age into the Roman period and the Middle Ages. The presence of T1 haplotypes in Neolithic Iberia, and their chronological and spatial recurrence, clearly demonstrates that T1 was not solely a Muslim or later introduction, as some have argued), though additional and/ or new T1 haplotypes may have been introduced during these periods.

    The Neolithic T1 cattle in our data most likely represent populations that expanded out of the Near East in the company of early farmers moving along the Mediterranean coastal route. T1 haplotypes could have reached the coast of eastern Iberia from the Near East as early as ~5400 cal. BC, when human migrations and contacts through the Mediterranean basin are archaeologically attested. Domestic cattle are well documented along the western Mediterranean and coast of Spain at this time, with La Draga being one of the earliest Neolithic Iberian sites where domestic cattle are found. The site of La Draga has close connections with the Mediterranean route of diffusion of the Neolithic, both culturally and due to its location on the eastern coast of the Peninsula. As the earliest cattle in the coastal areas of northwest Africa are dated significantly later than the earliest Neolithic farming sites found there, it is unlikely that cattle could have arrived at La Draga via an African route. The presence of the T1 haplotype at La Draga (northwest Spain, 5200 BC) implies, therefore, that this haplotype travelled with the earliest wave of domestic cattle from the Near East to the north-western Mediterranean. (…)

    Our results show the presence of the two most common haplogroups in domestic cattle in Europe (T3) and Africa (T1) in three early Neolithic sites in Iberia. … Our results provide important data about the phylogeny of cattle haplogroup T1 in the Iberian Peninsula, and open new issues about cattle movements through time. Further studies of the geographical distribution of the T1 haplogroup in Europe prior to ~5400 cal. BC, when the Neolithic arrived into the Iberian Peninsula, would shed more light on this topic.”


    https://www.docdroid.net/Bpi31Ps/col...ria-cattle-pdf
    it seems like T1 expanded along with Cardial Ware

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    This is the statement to which I objected as being too speculative:

    "The evidence indicates that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans and migrated into Africa via western Europe. "

    You told me to look at the second paper for the proof of that statement. I don't see any mention of R1b-V88 or that it adopted pastoralism in the Balkans.

    Pastoralism, by the way, is a late development in the trajectory from hunter-farmer to agriculture with animals, to primarily herding, to actual "Pastoralism". It's adopted when climatic conditions make farming difficult to impossible.

    What we have known for years is that there was migration going both ways across the Straits of Gibraltar. Given the presence of the "European" LP allele in Berbers that trait moved with people going from Iberia to northwestern Africa. There is then what looks "perhaps" like a spread from the Berbers to the Fulani.

    I stated all of this upthread. You're preaching to the choir.

    That's all well and good. Some of those people may have carried R1b-V88. Perhaps even more important going by the paper you cited is yDna "T", although I'm sure carriers of other y lineages had the LP allele. The group that broke off and went south might have coincidentally carried R1b-V88.

    So, no, this isn't a tale of one Mesolithic hunter-gatherer group inventing pastoralism and trail blazing like a comet across all of Europe and into Africa.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is the statement to which I objected as being too speculative:

    "The evidence indicates that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans and migrated into Africa via western Europe. "

    You told me to look at the second paper for the proof of that statement. I don't see any mention of R1b-V88 or that it adopted pastoralism in the Balkans.

    Pastoralism, by the way, is a late development in the trajectory from hunter-farmer to agriculture with animals, to primarily herding, to actual "Pastoralism". It's adopted when climatic conditions make farming difficult to impossible.

    What we have known for years is that there was migration going both ways across the Straits of Gibraltar. Given the presence of the "European" LP allele in Berbers that trait moved with people going from Iberia to northwestern Africa. There is then what looks "perhaps" like a spread from the Berbers to the Fulani.

    I stated all of this upthread. You're preaching to the choir.

    That's all well and good. Some of those people may have carried R1b-V88. Perhaps even more important going by the paper you cited is yDna "T", although I'm sure carriers of other y lineages had the LP allele. The group that broke off and went south might have coincidentally carried R1b-V88.

    So, no, this isn't a tale of one Mesolithic hunter-gatherer group inventing pastoralism and trail blazing like a comet across all of Europe and into Africa.
    there is no direct evidence for that but plenty of circumstantial evidence
    R1b-V88 adopted pastoralism in the Balkans
    they spread along with cardial ware and were also spotted in LBK, tough the LBK line probably went extinct
    with cardial ware they arrived in Sardegna and Iberia, probably also in Sicily
    they spread in Africa ca 7,6 ka, when the 'Green Sahara' returned and rivers flowed between lake Chad and the Mediterranean
    they could very well have spread catlle mtDNA T1 in Iberia and Africa
    there was also another branch of pastoralists coming from the Levant into Africa, they were E1b1b1 and the forefathers of the Cushites
    T is another branch of Pastoralists, they made it to the Levant, Anatolia, northwestern Morroco, Iberia and amongst LBK, but there is no trace of arriving further into Africa during the neolithic

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    I said that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans, and subsequently migrated into Africa via western Europe, not that they necessarily invented pastoralism. I also said that the spread of the 13910*T allele into Africa is associated with R1b-V88, and possibly T1a (Y-DNA).

    According to Marcus et al. 2020: "our analysis provides evidence that R1b-V88 traces back to eastern European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and later spread with the Neolithic expansion into Iberia and Sardinia.”


    The Els Trocs R1b-V88 individual from northeast Spain (5180 BC) belonged to a pastoral population:

    "The Els Trocs phytolith record suggests a seasonality of frequentation in accordance with an interest in pastoral and not in cultivation activities. The cave probably also played a role in the rituality of these pastoral groups ... The cave was used as a seasonal (late spring and summer) shelter related to pastoral activities. The presence of bone remains as well as the concentrations of spherulites confirms at least a partial stabling of animals in the cave."

    Lancelotti et al. 2012


    Some further evidence regarding pastoralism and dairy production:


    “This study provides the first isotopic insights into the diet and subsistence economy of Early and Middle Neolithic populations from open-air sites in interior north-central Iberia…. These findings contribute to an understanding of the implementation of an agro-pastoral economy in interior Iberia, suggesting a stronger reliance on animal foods among the first Neolithic groups of inner Iberia than in subsequent periods. (…)

    This shift in subsistence, described here for the first time, may tentatively be related to the stronger emphasis on pastoralism increasingly being attributed to the earliest Neolithic communities of interior Iberia, which is consistent with the local palynological and zooarchaeological records. (...)

    Unfortunately, it remains unknown whether this potentially greater commitment to a herding economy attributed to the first north-central Iberian Neolithic groups would involve a significant degree of mobility (transhumance, transterminance) or not (e.g. 'from dawn till dusk'). In any case, it is possible that, rather than a fully arable economy, Early and Middle Neolithic subsistence practices in the region emphasized intensive dairying and domestic herbivore meat exploitation complemented by the hunting of ungulates, gathering of wild plants and a small-scale intensive and diversified agriculture based on the cultivation of small cereal plots. This model could be the precursor to more extensive cereal-based farming from the Late Neolithic onwards, as both the isotope evidence and the environmental and archaeological records suggest. (…)

    the results show a significant shift in diet between the Early/Middle Neolithic and the Late Neolithic in north-central Iberia, which possibly relates to a subsistence change from mainly pastoral to mixed economies.”

    Fernandez-Crespo et al. 2019


    "in Europe, milk exploitation varied from east to west along the northern Mediterranean seaboard, as seen in the quasi-absence of dairy residues in ceramic vessels from northern Greece, in contrast to the strong evidence for dairying in the northwestern Mediterranean. The former cannot be solely explained by the potential use of perishable containers for milk processing or mixing with porcine fats, because AtD profiles have shown that husbandry was focused on meat production in these communities. Moving westwards, AtD profiles and lipid residue findings strongly demonstrated that early Neolithic communities were both actively managing animals for milk and processing milk in ceramic vessels. Combined evidence from faunal and lipid residue analyses, therefore, unequivocally show that the production and use of dairy products was widespread across the breadth of the northern Mediterranean, except in mainland Greece, from the onset of agriculture. Milk and dairy products might have been an important staple in early farming communities, and one of the key drivers in the spread and maybe in the adoption of animal domestication."

    Spiteri et al. 2016
    Last edited by Philjames100; 04-08-20 at 07:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    I said that R1b-V88 might have adopted pastoralism in the Balkans, and subsequently migrated into Africa via western Europe, not that they necessarily invented pastoralism. I also said that the spread of the 13910*T allele into Africa is associated with R1b-V88, and possibly T1a (Y-DNA).

    According to Marcus et al. 2020: "our analysis provides evidence that R1b-V88 traces back to eastern European Mesolithic hunter gatherers and later spread with the Neolithic expansion into Iberia and Sardinia.”


    The Els Trocs R1b-V88 individual from northwest Spain (5180 BC) belonged to a pastoral population:

    "The Els Trocs phytolith record suggests a seasonality of frequentation in accordance with an interest in pastoral and not in cultivation activities. The cave probably also played a role in the rituality of these pastoral groups ... The cave was used as a seasonal (late spring and summer) shelter related to pastoral activities. The presence of bone remains as well as the concentrations of spherulites confirms at least a partial stabling of animals in the cave."

    Lancelotti et al. 2012


    Some further evidence regarding pastoralism and dairy production:


    “This study provides the first isotopic insights into the diet and subsistence economy of Early and Middle Neolithic populations from open-air sites in interior north-central Iberia…. These findings contribute to an understanding of the implementation of an agro-pastoral economy in interior Iberia, suggesting a stronger reliance on animal foods among the first Neolithic groups of inner Iberia than in subsequent periods. (…)

    This shift in subsistence, described here for the first time, may tentatively be related to the stronger emphasis on pastoralism increasingly being attributed to the earliest Neolithic communities of interior Iberia, which is consistent with the local palynological and zooarchaeological records. (...)

    Unfortunately, it remains unknown whether this potentially greater commitment to a herding economy attributed to the first north-central Iberian Neolithic groups would involve a significant degree of mobility (transhumance, transterminance) or not (e.g. 'from dawn till dusk'). In any case, it is possible that, rather than a fully arable economy, Early and Middle Neolithic subsistence practices in the region emphasized intensive dairying and domestic herbivore meat exploitation complemented by the hunting of ungulates, gathering of wild plants and a small-scale intensive and diversified agriculture based on the cultivation of small cereal plots. This model could be the precursor to more extensive cereal-based farming from the Late Neolithic onwards, as both the isotope evidence and the environmental and archaeological records suggest. (…)

    the results show a significant shift in diet between the Early/Middle Neolithic and the Late Neolithic in north-central Iberia, which possibly relates to a subsistence change from mainly pastoral to mixed economies.”

    Fernandez-Crespo et al. 2019


    "in Europe, milk exploitation varied from east to west along the northern Mediterranean seaboard, as seen in the quasi-absence of dairy residues in ceramic vessels from northern Greece, in contrast to the strong evidence for dairying in the northwestern Mediterranean. The former cannot be solely explained by the potential use of perishable containers for milk processing or mixing with porcine fats, because AtD profiles have shown that husbandry was focused on meat production in these communities. Moving westwards, AtD profiles and lipid residue findings strongly demonstrated that early Neolithic communities were both actively managing animals for milk and processing milk in ceramic vessels. Combined evidence from faunal and lipid residue analyses, therefore, unequivocally show that the production and use of dairy products was widespread across the breadth of the northern Mediterranean, except in mainland Greece, from the onset of agriculture. Milk and dairy products might have been an important staple in early farming communities, and one of the key drivers in the spread and maybe in the adoption of animal domestication."

    Spiteri et al. 2016
    this is correct, and it is very consistent with the R1b-V88 pedigree and it's TRMCA's

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2219/

    Y8451 split during the Cardial Ware expansian into a Sardinian and African branch
    7,6 ka is after the 8,2 ka climate event, when the Green Sahara reapeared



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y8451/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is no direct evidence for that but plenty of circumstantial evidence
    R1b-V88 adopted pastoralism in the Balkans
    they spread along with cardial ware and were also spotted in LBK, tough the LBK line probably went extinct

    mtDNA from Els Trocs (c.5200 BC) might have come from central European LBK:

    "it cannot be ruled out that the phase I individuals from Els Trocs came from the north via the Rhone Valley. The grounds for this assumption are the genetic profile set of the group. One adult male from Els Trocs (CET 5) exhibits mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1, which was common in early Neolithic Central Europe but previously unknown in Spain. He represents the oldest early Neolithic individual on the Iberian Peninsula matching a Central European Neolithic mtDNA haplogroup. Only recently has new evidence been published of other N1a individuals along the hypothetical migration route from Central to Southwest Europe through France."

    Alt et al. 2020

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    mtDNA from Els Trocs (c.5200 BC) might have come from central European LBK:
    "it cannot be ruled out that the phase I individuals from Els Trocs came from the north via the Rhone Valley. The grounds for this assumption are the genetic profile set of the group. One adult male from Els Trocs (CET 5) exhibits mtDNA haplogroup N1a1a1, which was common in early Neolithic Central Europe but previously unknown in Spain. He represents the oldest early Neolithic individual on the Iberian Peninsula matching a Central European Neolithic mtDNA haplogroup. Only recently has new evidence been published of other N1a individuals along the hypothetical migration route from Central to Southwest Europe through France."
    Alt et al. 2020
    that is a possibility
    but EN Els Trocs and Chaves had both R1b-V88 and I2a1b
    and I2a1b was already present in the Alpes-Maritimes as cardial ware pastoralist 7,5 ka, 200 years earlier
    I think that is a more likely origin for the Els Trocs pastoralists

    Ancient genome-wide DNA from France highlights the complexity of interactions between Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and Neolithic farmers

    Maïté Rivollat*, Choongwon Jeong, Stephan Schiffels, İşil Küçükkalıpçı, Marie-Hélène Pemonge,
    Adam Benjamin Rohrlach, Kurt W. Alt, Didier Binder, Susanne Friederich, Emmanuel Ghesquière, Detlef Gronenborn,
    Luc Laporte, Philippe Lefranc, Harald Meller, Hélène Réveillas, Eva Rosenstock, Stéphane Rottier, Chris Scarre,
    Ludovic Soler, Joachim Wahl, Johannes Krause, Marie-France Deguilloux, Wolfgang Haak*

    5480-5370 (6445±40; GrA-26893) Pendimoun Alpes-Maritimes, France PEN France_EN_PEN_A F K1a1b1
    5480-5360 (6440±40; GrA-26894) Pendimoun Alpes-Maritimes, France PEN France_EN_PEN_B F HV0+195
    5480-5337 (6450±40; GrA-32061) Pendimoun Alpes-Maritimes, France PEN France_EN_PEN_A M I2a1a2 M423 Dolman J1c3

    soon after they expanded in France & the Pyrenées :
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L161/

    check Pendimoun in the supplements of this study :

    Pendimoun (Castellar, Alpes-Maritimes, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d’Azur, France)
    Contact: Didier Binder, Henri Duday
    Pendimoun (PEN) is a rock-shelter discovered in 1955, which is 4 km north of
    Menton, very close to the French-Italian border. In 1956, preliminary field work provided a
    male burial attributed to the Cardial period, but this individual was not considered in this
    study due to contradictory dates from chemical preservatives (105). More extensive
    excavations performed between 1985 and 2006 (106, 107) revealed a detailed
    archaeological sequence from the Early Mesolithic (Sauveterrian) to modern times, with a
    specific important sequence attributed to the Impresso-Cardial complex, dated to between
    5750 and 5200/5150 cal BCE. The latter includes three inhumations - two females and one
    male (107) - dated to the Early Cardial stage, which postdates the Impressa stage. Direct
    radiocarbon dates and stable isotopes on human remains provide a narrow range between
    5480 and 5330 cal BCE for this phase, placing them amongst the oldest Neolithic individuals
    analysed in this part of the Mediterranean coast. The burials are primarily deposited in
    individual pits, with distinctive stone architectures for the females and the male. All three
    individuals show signs of pathologies or trauma, raising questions about a selective
    recruitment.
    Unpublished DNA analyses from the ancient DNA labs in Bordeaux and Madrid by
    M.-F. Deguilloux, E. Fernandes, C. Gamba, E. Arroyo-Pardo and M.-H. Pemonge have
    established that the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) was preserved.
    We sampled for this study one petrous bone for each of the three individuals.
    Calibrated date intervals are given at 2-sigma level.
    • PEN001_real1 / Pendimoun F1; 5480-5370 cal BCE (6445±40BP; GrA-26893)
    • PEN001_real2 / Pendimoun F2; 5480-5360 cal BCE (6440±40BP; GrA-26894)
    • PEN003 / Pendimoun H2; 5480-5337 cal BCE (6450±40BP; GrA-32061)

  25. #50
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    11-06-18
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is no direct evidence for that but plenty of circumstantial evidence
    R1b-V88 adopted pastoralism in the Balkans
    they spread along with cardial ware and were also spotted in LBK, tough the LBK line probably went extinct
    with cardial ware they arrived in Sardegna and Iberia, probably also in Sicily
    they spread in Africa ca 7,6 ka, when the 'Green Sahara' returned and rivers flowed between lake Chad and the Mediterranean
    they could very well have spread catlle mtDNA T1 in Iberia and Africa
    there was also another branch of pastoralists coming from the Levant into Africa, they were E1b1b1 and the forefathers of the Cushites
    T is another branch of Pastoralists, they made it to the Levant, Anatolia, northwestern Morroco, Iberia and amongst LBK, but there is no trace of arriving further into Africa during the neolithic
    Excuse my ignorance... but does this mean that these R1b-V88 people drank milk around the time they adopted pastoralism, ie did they drink milk during their Balkan stay?
    From what I read the drinking of milk and consumption of lactose rich foods predates the evolution of the lactose persistence gene(?).

    I read contradictive information. One states that lactose persistance developed ~4k Years ago, from the previous studies I shared in my earlier post.
    Yet here it states 2k to 20k years ago the lactose persistence gene was developed. I mean 2-20k and 4k are not mutually exclusive. Would just like your opinion on this.

    "But around 8,000 years ago in what's now Turkey — just when humans were starting to milk newly domesticated cows, goats and sheep — mutations near the gene that produces the lactase enzyme started becoming more frequent. And around the same time, adult lactose tolerance developed. The mutation responsible for that may be between 2,000 and 20,000 years old; estimates vary."

    "
    But now that doesn't happen for most people of Northern and Central European descent and in certain African and Middle Eastern populations. This development of lactose tolerance took only about 20,000 years — the evolutionary equivalent of a hot minute — but it would have required extremely strong selective pressure."

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...%20call%20it).

    I thought Angela said Balkan people can digest milk thanks to Slavic genes xD??? Yet V88 might have/has developed pastoralism in the Balkans, and 8-10k years ago in Anatolia we have evidence of milk consumption and statements saying "around 8,000 years ago in what's now Turkey — just when humans were starting to milk newly domesticated cows, goats and sheep — mutations near the gene that produces the lactase enzyme started becoming more frequent".


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You are misinformed, again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Please read post number 26.

    If Albanians can drink milk with no ill effects, perhaps you have your Slavic ancestry to thank. That's one northern invasion we missed after the fall of the Empire.
    I mean either I am misinterpreting what Angela said, or I am wrong that Slavs migrated to the Balkans much later than this lactose persistence ordeal started.

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