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Thread: Photo-real portraits of Roman emperors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    don't use the term white. that simple. use westeurasian or caucasian if you have to, but there is no reason anymore to talk about "whites".
    right or wrong, some of my State IDs have a “W” on it, so like it or not, white is a ‘Legal’ and perfectly appropriate word to use :)

    ... it’s just an extra Identification feature in a multi-ethnic society, I think.

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    Nothing has changed, at least in US, I think.Yes, I agree with Ygorcs about the ‘binary vision’ of Anglo-Saxons about ethnicity: It’s black or white, and just one drop turns you a black, even if your specific phenotype seems very white. If your name or surname seems ‘Hispanic’, this turns you automatically a ‘non white’ as said Carlos. It’s things of Puritans, I think. Many immigrants suffered discrimination along the timelines when arrived in US, although its European origin, like Irish, Italian , South-Germans, just to pointed some ethnicities. Afrocentrism and white suprematism are, basically, American phenomena. In Brazil an organization like KKK never would be considered legal, even in the current misgovernment in which we live . Yes, There is racism in Brasil. Brazil is a racist country. But the racism is not directed simply in reason of the color of your skin, but, basically, to your appearance and social status. The police will not approach you at random in a street if you look white. The same is not true of those who look like 'non-whites': Sad truth in Brazil.

    In Brazil, no identification document will indicate your ethnicity, except on your birth certificate and, for men, on your reservist certificate, that shows your ethnicity, the color of your eyes and your height.

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    Ailchu,

    Where do you get this? It seems you’re just making this up. Site some sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    In Brazil, no identification document will indicate your ethnicity, except on your birth certificate and, for men, on your reservist certificate, that shows your ethnicity, the color of your eyes and your height.
    Just a small correction: for 99.5% of Brazilians (those who aren't still indigenous in an ethnic sense, i.e. with their own distinctive cultural identity and so on), those documents will only indicate your skin color/physical phenotype. The concept of race in Brazil became so blurred and variable (very far from the black vs. white dichotomy I was talking about in other comments, which lead "woke" people to think they're doing something pro-black by depicting veeeeeery tanned European emperors) that when peope talk about "race" they're really saying how someone looks like in skin complexion and a few other traits (generally lips, nose and hair texture): white, brown, black, yellow (i.e. East Asian-like looks). As I said, it's different. There is a lot of racism, but the concepts that underly it are just different. Race is not as conflated with ethnicity and with one's origins as in US-style racial thought. To the large majority of Brazilians it is pretty "obvious" that a light-skinned Pakistani or Saudi is white, no matter where their roots come from. Conversely, an individual with pretty brown skin, but not that dark, but of mostly European origin (and very visibly so in traits like face, hair, eyes etc.), will hardly be described as black, but as "brown" or "tanned" or something like that. That's why I notice very easily when a black activist in Brazil is being heavily influenced by US racial discourse and debate or not. The way to think about phenotype, genotype and racial classification is just not the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Just a small correction: for 99.5% of Brazilians (those who aren't still indigenous in an ethnic sense, i.e. with their own distinctive cultural identity and so on), those documents will only indicate your skin color/physical phenotype. The concept of race in Brazil became so blurred and variable (very far from the black vs. white dichotomy I was talking about in other comments, which lead "woke" people to think they're doing something pro-black by depicting veeeeeery tanned European emperors) that when peope talk about "race" they're really saying how someone looks like in skin complexion and a few other traits (generally lips, nose and hair texture): white, brown, black, yellow (i.e. East Asian-like looks). As I said, it's different. There is a lot of racism, but the concepts that underly it are just different. Race is not as conflated with ethnicity and with one's origins as in US-style racial thought. To the large majority of Brazilians it is pretty "obvious" that a light-skinned Pakistani or Saudi is white, no matter where their roots come from. Conversely, an individual with pretty brown skin, but not that dark, but of mostly European origin (and very visibly so in traits like face, hair, eyes etc.), will hardly be described as black, but as "brown" or "tanned" or something like that. That's why I notice very easily when a black activist in Brazil is being heavily influenced by US racial discourse and debate or not. The way to think about phenotype, genotype and racial classification is just not the same.
    Yes, thanks for the clarification, Ygor. The birth certificate and the reservist certificate are non-mandatory personal documents and must only be displayed in situations provided for law. In the mandatory document of carry, which may be the ID, the driver's license, the ID issued by an regulated profession council or the functional identity, the last one in case of a public servant, there is no reference to the ethnicity or skin’s color.

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    none of the Emperors had just a big full Mustache, :-I ... just sayin’

    ... beard doesn't count :)
    Last edited by Salento; 17-09-20 at 14:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    none of the Emperors had just a big full Mustache, :-I ... just sayin’

    ... beard doesn't count :)
    It is true Salento.I never saw a representation of a Roman emperor wearing a mustache. The smooth face of many Roman emperors may be due to the fact that it was in the Roman Civilization that the first shaving creams, based on olive oil, appeared. The custom of using the mustache in Europe came with the Visigoths who lived in the Iberian Peninsula and were known for their great mustaches. In English, “bigot” is someone intolerant of different opinions, which is consistent with the fame of the Visigoths. The word came from “bigoth”, i.e., “visigoth”. In Portuguese “mustache” means “bigode”, I.e. “Visigoth”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    right or wrong, some of my State IDs have a “W” on it, so like it or not, white is a ‘Legal’ and perfectly appropriate word to use :)

    ... it’s just an extra Identification feature in a multi-ethnic society, I think.
    in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Ailchu,

    Where do you get this? It seems you’re just making this up. Site some sources.
    what exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?
    I don’t know, I didn’t ask, they just looked at me, ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    but "white" doesn't equal european in the US, where it is mostly used. first it was meant only for anglos then it opened up and included more and more people until it included most westeurasian people. that's probably because you can't just stop somewhere since there are too many overlaps. and honestly if you think europeans form a seperate racial group then i think it is not that much more illogical if someone else tries to exclude spaniards from that group while including all the other westeurasians or if he thinks that for example anglos form a seperate racial group.
    In that same New York Times article, the Moroccan character has been classified as white, the Spanish have not, it must be too much for them to classify someone with Spanish surnames as white.


    I believe that these issues are paid, someone pays, as I also believe that they pay in directed genetic studies.


    What interests can they be?


    On the one hand, I think there are the aspiring countries to be considered whiter than they are, others to improve their reviled image in Europe and the world and have found that the perfect spring to do so is the Iberian Peninsula,


    They may seem insignificant or even frivolous topics but I think they are more important than they seem at first glance and they can affect investments and the economy.


    The United States is the world power today and everything will turn according to the minorities that that country has? Will they exclude Spain and some other country will accept it as a pet according to the minorities they have there? It must be insurmountable for them to accept someone with Spanish surnames as white even when it comes to Spain?


    From the rich partner countries of Eastern Europe he cannot trust you, one less competitor, incredibly they are still found in foreign forums that dream of another dictatorship in Spain, they must be crazy, we do not want that even in dreams.


    The Iberian Peninsula, well, it seems the perfect spring for the North African countries because of that small percentage of Iberomaurusian from 12,000 years ago of some super deteriorated samples and that, well, we obtain them even in the national identity document and with the reinforcement of the Muslim era in Spain It must be that of: if they can, we too, we are not so different, we have something to do with it, all in order to convince or create opinion in the face of the rich countries of Eastern Europe and the United States.

    There are paying people in forums even in tik tok there are systematically campaigning to improve their image using Spain.


    Then there are the aspiring countries of the rest of America, who also want to improve their image and be considered whiter than they are and also find in the Iberian Peninsula in this case unlike the North African countries more in a sense that it appears This part of Western Europe bone the Iberian peninsula with a mentality of the 17th century or perpetuate in negative the conquest of the new world, victims and executioners.


    That so many interests are for something, it is not for entertainment and these issues do affect investments and the economy, otherwise there would not be so much interest in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    When I was a youngster I was taught that race did not exist as a scientific concept. That was the liberal/progressive viewpoint as well. What changed?
    The definition of whiteness has changed 46886427 times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    in the US white means officially everyone from europe, north africa and near east. why is the US not just writing westeurasian or caucasian instead of white on your ID's? why do you still use this term "white" when unofficially everyone has a different opinion on who belongs there and who doesn't?
    I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.
    ... not on my State IDs,



    ... US weight is in pounds :)

    for the Feds is white too.

    https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...orms/n-400.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    ... not on my State IDs,



    for the Feds is white too:
    https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/...orms/n-400.pdf
    Please Salento, I ask you to kindly forward the form to the identification service of your state. Thanks in advance. These are my answers to some questions. I think that the ID service will put my race as “B” or exists the letter “L” for Latino.



    1. Hispanic or Latino
    2. White
    3. 5’ 11”. 4. 190
    5. Blue
    6. Gray



    Cheers dear friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Please Salento, I ask you to kindly forward the form to the identification service of your state. Thanks in advance. These are my answers to some questionds. I think that the ID service will put my race as “B”.



    1. Hispanic or Latino
    2. White
    3. 5’ 11”. 4. 190
    5. Blue
    6. Gray



    Cheers dear friend.
    if you lie, first they’ll change it, and then I'll go to visit you in prison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    if you lie, first they’ll change it, and then I'll go to visit you in prison

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    The point is that historical accuracy does matter. It's a matter of respect for the heritage of people, and their ancestry that scientists try to be historical accurate when reconstructing the physical appearance of historical people. So I‘m not criticizing Voshart for making Hadrian, Severus as dark as SSAs because I begrudge blacks their Roman heritage or emperors, not at all, but because I do care about historical accuracy. Therefore, not only Nordicist but also leftist lies don‘t matter to me. Hence, if scholars want to reconstruct the physical appearance of historical people they better be as accurate as possible instead of being as political correct as possible. So in that sense getting the skin color fairly right, does matter. The leftists who distort and rewrite history are like muh distortion is better than yours because I'm misleading and cheating for the sake of a better world and anti-racism. Nordicistic distortion of history is outrageous but so is Voshart insisting on the misrepresentation of North African, Syrian Roman emperors by making them look how he wants them to look. North African and Middle Easterners are upset with Voshart and not white supremacists or Nordicists, to begin with.

    Here critical comments of North Africans/Middle Easterners that are on point.

    https://twitter.com/ndehouche/status...616512/photo/1

    https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1300874984273870852

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    that was a Federal Form, If you're bald and you say you have gray hair, .. it's a Federal Offense !!! Seriously !

  20. #170
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    Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.

    So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)

    I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.

    ”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)

    The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)

    Some North African from the Rif would be considered “white” but the majority, who are about a quarter black and look it, probably wouldn’t. Well, unless he looked like Omar Sharif, officially Egyptian but actually Syrian, who when young passed as a Central Asian admixed Russian in “Doctor zhivago”. The one drop rule is dead and buried in America except for Nordicists on anthrofora. Oh, and except for some African admixed people who refuse to identify as mulatto (Halle Berry), or quadroon ( the daughter of the founder of Motown Records), and insist on identifying as black. So some of them are to blame for this two part division now too. In fact, a whole list of professors was recently published who lied and claimed some minority ancestry to get preferential hiring and promotion. One woman started doing it for grad school and it’s been going on for decades. I think she even teaches African Studies!

    It’s all madness.

    Of course, in today’s BLM era the New York Times is calling people with this kind of ancestry people of color. I guess now it’s an honor. They want everyone who doesn’t look Nordic to “join” the movement.

    This was all inherited from the English settlers so let’s blame them! :). Seriously, they had a very different attitude than the Spanish and Portuguese, or the Italians in their short lived African colonies or the French in their colonies. Even “one drop” of African blood tainted you.They always denied any miscegenation by them, blaming it on the Spanish and Portuguese sailors during the crossing, and sometimes on Irish overseers. The English and Scots men would never do such a disgusting thing, so they claimed, and so they never or almost never claimed these children. It was denial, denial, denial. That’s why there was no separate classification for them. It’s all clearly recorded in documents from the period.

    it was insanity and horrible. These were their children they were selling and sometimes deliberately feeding for sale.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.

    So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)

    I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.

    ”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)

    The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)

    Some North African from the Rif would be considered “white” but the majority, who are about a quarter black and look it, probably wouldn’t. Well, unless he looked like Omar Sharif, officially Egyptian but actually Syrian, who when young passed as a Central Asian admixed Russian in “Doctor zhivago”. The one drop rule is dead and buried in America except for Nordicists on anthrofora. Oh, and except for some African admixed people who refuse to identify as mulatto (Halle Berry), or quadroon ( the daughter of the founder of Motown Records), and insist on identifying as black. So some of them are to blame for this two part division now too. In fact, a whole list of professors was recently published who lied and claimed some minority ancestry to get preferential hiring and promotion. One woman started doing it for grad school and it’s been going on for decades. I think she even teaches African Studies!

    It’s all madness.

    Of course, in today’s BLM era the New York Times is calling people with this kind of ancestry people of color. I guess now it’s an honor. They want everyone who doesn’t look Nordic to “join” the movement.

    This was all inherited from the English settlers so let’s blame them! :). Seriously, they had a very different attitude than the Spanish and Portuguese, or the Italians in their short lived African colonies or the French in their colonies. Even “one drop” of African blood tainted you.They always denied any miscegenation by them, blaming it on the Spanish and Portuguese sailors during the crossing, and sometimes on Irish overseers. The English and Scots men would never do such a disgusting thing, so they claimed, and so they never or almost never claimed these children. It was denial, denial, denial. That’s why there was no separate classification for them. It’s all clearly recorded in documents from the period.

    it was insanity and horrible. These were their children they were selling and sometimes deliberately feeding for sale.
    Very nice see you back, Angela. Cheers :)

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    Not for long. :)

    I sold my house and bought a new one on Tuesday; back to back closings. It was hellish for two months: finding a buyer, finding a new house, negotiating the deals and PACKING.

    We moved yesterday: 12 hours of hell on earth. After it was over all I did was make the beds and set out the coffee maker. Today I slept with my feet up on bags of ice. It was a great look.

    AND, I have no internet till at least the 25th so this is by phone.

    Tomorrow starts the unpack time, new doctors, new stores, new license, new everything.

    If some paper on Italy gets published I hope someone will pm me. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not for long. :)

    I sold my house and bought a new one on Tuesday; back to back closings. It was hellish for two months: finding a buyer, finding a new house, negotiating the deals and PACKING.

    We moved yesterday: 12 hours of hell on earth. After it was over all I did was make the beds and set out the coffee maker. Today I slept with my feet up on bags of ice. It was a great look.

    AND, I have no internet till at least the 25th so this is by phone.

    Tomorrow starts the unpack time, new doctors, new stores, new license, new everything.

    If some paper on Italy gets published I hope someone will pm me. :)
    Good luck in your new home, Angela. I went through this eight years ago. I know that this is very exhausting. When I moving to my new apartment, the cabinets in the bedrooms were not ready and the clothes had to be in rented clothes racks. There was a lot to be done because service providers delayed the work and I had to hand over the old apartment to the new owner who had bought it from me. Well, I tried not to stress too much, but it was difficult, sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, some “white” American Hispanics wanted to make sure it was clear they were Hispanic. but they were not “black” or “Native American” Hispanics and complained. At least that’s how I heard it happened.

    So, I think if you clicked Hispanic and white you’d be covered. :)

    I guess the South Asians (Indians and Pakistanis) and East Asians haven’t complained so they’re all lumped in together.

    ”White” in common parlance today means looking “Europeanish”. Of course the definition has changed over the centuries. In the 1700’s William Penn, an English “founder”, imported Germans from the Palatine to settle Pennsylvania and said they didn’t look “white” to him. :) That changed. There was a problem with the Irish bkz although usually very fair skinned, they sometimes had dark hair, and worse they were CATHOLIC, so how could they be WASP or White Anglo Saxon Protestant? :)

    The Armenians went to court to be declared “white”, and so did the Lebanese, most notably the grandfather of Lisa Halaby, Queen Noor, because it was questioned in California and the south in the 1800s. I think the reason they were successful was partly because they were Christian. I think Italians and Portuguese skated through. To see how far the definition has changed, when the youngest of the two Chechen Boston Marathon bombers said he wasn’t white, some of the black news commentators were saying he sure as hell looks white to me! :)

    Some North African from the Rif would be considered “white” but the majority, who are about a quarter black and look it, probably wouldn’t. Well, unless he looked like Omar Sharif, officially Egyptian but actually Syrian, who when young passed as a Central Asian admixed Russian in “Doctor zhivago”. The one drop rule is dead and buried in America except for Nordicists on anthrofora. Oh, and except for some African admixed people who refuse to identify as mulatto (Halle Berry), or quadroon ( the daughter of the founder of Motown Records), and insist on identifying as black. So some of them are to blame for this two part division now too. In fact, a whole list of professors was recently published who lied and claimed some minority ancestry to get preferential hiring and promotion. One woman started doing it for grad school and it’s been going on for decades. I think she even teaches African Studies!

    It’s all madness.

    Of course, in today’s BLM era the New York Times is calling people with this kind of ancestry people of color. I guess now it’s an honor. They want everyone who doesn’t look Nordic to “join” the movement.

    This was all inherited from the English settlers so let’s blame them! :). Seriously, they had a very different attitude than the Spanish and Portuguese, or the Italians in their short lived African colonies or the French in their colonies. Even “one drop” of African blood tainted you.They always denied any miscegenation by them, blaming it on the Spanish and Portuguese sailors during the crossing, and sometimes on Irish overseers. The English and Scots men would never do such a disgusting thing, so they claimed, and so they never or almost never claimed these children. It was denial, denial, denial. That’s why there was no separate classification for them. It’s all clearly recorded in documents from the period.

    it was insanity and horrible. These were their children they were selling and sometimes deliberately feeding for sale.
    the chechen bombers really do look white though. if they aren't "white" then what are they? they certainly do not look like a different race and the fact that there were certain people who immiediately said they aren't white proves my point.

    i don't get it, why is the US still using the misleading term "white" when its definition changed several times and everyone has a different opinion.

    the zarnaevs say they aren't white because they still have a different understanding of what the term white means. for them it is probably also not just a racial group but also political. the term white should be removed because it is a pseudo racial category that has a lot to do with politics. armenians are white because they are christians?! so certain people who would actually belong in it are still excluded or do not identify with it.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I'm not sure, but I recall that the official term for people from Europe, the Middle East and North Africa in the USA is "Caucasian" and not "white". With that being said in the USA the regular people equate Caucasian with "white" or European.
    no, the official term is white. also, you say the official term in the US is caucasian, but that the regular people equate caucasian with "white" or european. i don't think so. that would mean that regular people in the US have no real term for non-european caucasians. but it's rather the other way around the official term for all caucasians is white but many of the regular people in the US still seem to equate white with just the europeans or not even all europeans.

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