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Thread: Is it time for Americans to stop using their air conditioners?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I looked up he specs as your pictures did not show the type of refrigerant used. It turns out that it is R410a, the worst type of HFC, with a global warming potential of 2088 (against 3 for new non-HFC models). Unbelievably Fujitsu mentions that R410a is an ecological gas because it does not deplete the ozone layer! Only R12 and R22 deplete the ozone layer, but R12 was banned worldwide in 1994 and R22 is already being phased out in the EU and USA. So I am sorry to inform you that your AC units are not eco-friendly at all.
    Really, the installation manual in Portuguese says that the air conditioning unit uses a new HFC refrigerant (R410A).

    https://www.fujitsu-general.com/glob...ign/index.html

    https://www.fujitsu-general.com/br/p...lit/index.html



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    Switching To R32 From R410A: Why Manufacturers Are Switching Refrigerants

    What is an AC refrigerant and why is it used?


    Air conditioning, refrigeration and freezing technology are all powered by refrigerant — a compound typically found in a fluid or gaseous state. A refrigerant works by absorbing heat from the environment, which combined with other components like compressors and evaporators to create cool air.
    Air conditioners contain refrigerant inside inner copper coils, as the refrigerant absorbs heat from inside, it transitions from its state as a gas, to a liquid. This liquid is sent outside, where a fan blows hot air over the coils and exhausts to the outside.
    From there, the refrigerant cools and turns back into a gas. A fan then blows air over the cooled coils, resulting in cool air being blown out of the unit and throughout your home. This cycle is repeated over and again during the cooling process.

    Types of refrigerants in ACs




    R12

    Chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), including R12, were refrigerants known to significantly contribute to the greenhouse gas effect. Production of units with R12 were ceased in 1994 due to regulation. Chlorofluorocarbons was one of the main reasons for the depletion in the ozone layer and the greenhouse gas effect.

    R22


    R22 is a Hydrochlorofluorocarbon (HCFCs) refrigerant that was slightly less environmentally damaging than R12, but wasmandated for phase out in the U.S. in 2010 due to the Clean Air Act. R22 is expected to be completely phased out by 2020.

    R410A


    R410A is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFCs)refrigerant, that was viewed as safer for the environment than R22. It has a GWP (Global Warming Potential) of 2,090, meaning that if one kilogram is released into the atmosphere, it would have 2,090 times the impact of one kilogram of carbon. That being said, R410A has an ODP (Ozone Depletion Potential) of 0.

    R32


    R32 is also an HFC refrigerant that many air conditioning manufacturers are adopting for its performance in regards to the environment, energy consumption, efficiency and safety. Compared to R410A, R32 has a GWP of 675 — about 30% lower. Both refrigerants have an ODP of 0.

    Why switch from R410A to R32?


    R32 is quickly becoming the refrigerant of choice for many AC manufacturers. While there are many reasons for this switch, the main benefits of R32 are:

    • R32 has a GWP of 675, roughly 30% lower than that of R410A
    • R32 systems use up to 20% less refrigerant than R410A, making them more efficient and cost less to operate
    • Ozone Depletion Potential of 0
    • Easier to recycle than R410A, as R32 is a single component refrigerant


    Is it possible to upgrade refrigerant in an existing unit?


    Please note that it is not possible to transition an R410A refrigerant unit to an R32 unit. Refrigerants should only be handled by trained, qualified technicians. These experts can assist you in finding an R32 capable system.

    FUJITSU - NEW PRODUCTS 2019 - AIR CONDITIONERS LINEUP (UK):

    https://www.fujitsu-general.com/shar...9-1901e-01.pdf

    Equipment similar to mine, sold in the United States:

    https://www.fujitsu-general.com/us/p...u24rlxfw1.html

    Last edited by Duarte; 01-09-20 at 00:50.

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    The energy efficiency of a machine or machines systems cannot be measured by a single variable. The assembly of the equation that will calculate the energy efficiency (energy balance) has multiple variables. There are compensating factors. Just to illustrate, most likely a Hybrid car (combustion engine + electric engine), ‘Total Flex, (a combustion car engine that can use any fuel mixture containing gasoline and ethanol) driving in Brazil using 100% of ethanol, will have a much more favorable carbon balance than a similar 100% electric model driving in Europe. The Brazilian energetic matrix is ​​basically hydroelectric, wind and solar, unlike the European energy matrix. It could be different since we have oil and gas (we could burn everything in thermoelectric) and we have large reserves of uranium and we have mastered the entire uranium enrichment cycle to produce from fuel for nuclear power plants to atomic bombs (nobody wants that, of course, because its a stupidity) - in this case instead of hydroelectric plants, wind power plants and the transformation of the roofs of buildings in the country's cities in solar plants, we could spread nuclear power plants and thermoeletric that burn fossil fuels by the country, saving the Amazon from hydroelectric plants, because it seems that currently, there, is the only place in the country where they can be built. The Minister of the Environment of Bolsonaro, Ricardo Salles, who said that the ‘the better business is open the corral and release the cattle in the forest’ will be very happy with this and I will be obliged to support him because I do not want to be without energy in my house.
    Last edited by Duarte; 01-09-20 at 03:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Pellet fuel is not a very common way of heating houses in Belgium. I don't know anyone who uses that. Most people use central heating with a natural gas condensing boiler (98% thermal efficiency), which is less polluting and more energy efficient than wood burning. According to this detailed report, wood pellets are mostly used in the UK and for electricity production rather than heating. It is Italians who use it the most for residential heating, followed by Americans (page 14).

    Nevertheless Britain is constantly increasing its share of renewable energy, which reached 47% in early 2020, while coal burning accounted for a mere 3.8% of British electricity generation. Oil, wood pellets and others stood at 2.7%. As the UK is the biggest consumer of wood pellets in Europe, it means that in absolute terms wood pellets represents only a tiny percentage of energy generation in Europe.

    The US is in a completely different league. Renewable energy stood at 11% in the US in 2018, with petroleum generating 36% of electricity, natural gas 31% and coal 13%.

    Combining all types of fuels, Americans produce about 50% CO2 per capita than the average European. The petrol consumption per capita is particularly high in the USA (about 400 to 500% more than Europeans).
    I'm not great on computers so I can't post the link, but in 2018 the U.S. shipped seven million tons of bio-fuel (wood pellets) over to Europe where it was used primarily to fuel the grid. (Report was from N.P.R. and it can found by using search terms "bio-fuel"/Europe/U.S. export").

    In your referenced report it says Europe is responsible for 80% of the world's consumption of pelletized biomass. I didn't specify usage per nation... only that Europe as a whole was using our bio-mass. Any way you slice it, that a lot of pellets.

    Yes, the U.S. uses more energy per capita, but we are also more productive.

    I stand by my original comment of I'll give up my A/C when you give up your heat. And I will also agree that ozone layer protection is massively important... so we need to focus on "ozone neutral" in all cooling systems, including those in automobiles.
    Last edited by nordicwarrior; 02-09-20 at 21:03.

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    countries that consume energy per capita

    USA
    Canada
    Arab peninsula
    Norway
    Singapore
    Iceland


    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/p...ita-energy-use


    some numbers kW/h

    Qatar 198500
    USA 79900
    UK 32250
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post

    But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

    Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.


    Refrigerant Global Warming Potential Ozone Depletion Potential
    R 22 1810 Medium
    R 410A 2088 Nil
    R 32 675 Nil
    R 134A 1430 Nil
    R 290 3 Nil
    R 600A 3 Nil

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Yes, the U.S. uses more energy per capita, but we are also more productive.
    What does productivity have anything to do energy consumption? In developed countries, lower energy consumption is associated with more advanced technologies. Anyway, most European countries have a higher productivity than the USA according to the latest OECD data.

    And I will also agree that ozone layer protection is massively important... so we need to focus on "ozone neutral" in all cooling systems, including automobiles.
    Why do you think that protecting the ozone layer is more important that fighting global warming? That was an important issue in the 1980's, but measures have been taken and the holes in the ozone layer have since healed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

    Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.


    Refrigerant Global Warming Potential Ozone Depletion Potential
    R 22 1810 Medium
    R 410A 2088 Nil
    R 32 675 Nil
    R 134A 1430 Nil
    R 290 3 Nil
    R 600A 3 Nil

    Air conditioning refrigerant gases circulate in a closed (sealed) tube and cylinder system. The objective is that they do not leak, although leaks may occur during recharging and continuous use, where the refrigerant gas expands and contracts. We agree that the refrigerant gas circulates continuously in a sealed system and the leaks, which occur mainly at the time of recharging, which is annual, are insignificant for global warming when compared to the CO2 emitted by Europe, mainly in winter, burning the gas of the Putin, sent by Gazprom. However efficient the burning of natural gas is, the truth is that Europeans heat up in the winter by burning a fossil fuel whose result leaves tons of CO2 in the planet's atmosphere. The traces of R410A that may eventually inadvertently leak from a sealed air conditioning system are so insignificant that they are not even part of the statistics. This is ‘to play for the audience’. The EU should focus on the main cause. The air conditioning refrigerant gas was a concern when was the CFC, that destroyed the ozone layer. Now you bring up the greenhouse effect caused by HFC that leaks in minimal amounts when compared to the tons of CO2 that come from burning the natural gas (fossil) from Gazprom.

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    While natural gas is better than coal for global warming, there are major leaks of methane during the drilling, and transportation of the gas. Not to mention the burning of the fuel to produce electricity or heat. The most efficient way to take advantage of the fuel is by building heat and power plants (CHP) in which the waste heat from the production of electricity is used for heating instead of vented to the environment.
    I personally think that most of the thermostats in the shops and businesses are set way too high during the day. You enter a business and the heat is suffocating. Yikes!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    While natural gas is better than coal for global warming, there are major leaks of methane during the drilling, and transportation of the gas. Not to mention the burning of the fuel to produce electricity or heat. The most efficient way to take advantage of the fuel is by building heat and power plants (CHP) in which the waste heat from the production of electricity is used for heating instead of vented to the environment.
    I personally think that most of the thermostats in the shops and businesses are set way too high during the day. You enter a business and the heat is suffocating. Yikes!!!
    That really depends a lot on the country. In Belgium it is normal to keep the thermostat on 20°C during the day and 16°C at night in winter. These are also the recommendations from the Ministry of Health. But I know that many people from warmer countries find these temperatures too cold. We try to dress the same way outside and inside (except for the coat) so as not to have to change clothes all the time, but also to save energy on heating.

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    R-290 Facts

    Name: R-290
    Name - Scientific: Propane
    Name (2): HC-290
    Name (3): CARE-40
    Name (4) R290
    Classification: Hydrocarbon Refrigerant
    Chemistry: C3H8 or CH3CH2CH3
    Status: Active & Growing
    Future: Will Be Used All Over The World
    Application: Supermarkets, Gas Stations, Vending/Ice Machines
    Application (2): Refrigerated Transport, Industrial Refrigeration, and Much More
    Replacement For: CFCs, HCFCs, and now HFCs
    Ozone Depletion Potential: 0
    Global Warming Potential: 3.3
    Global Warming Risk: Very Low
    Toxicity Levels: A (No Toxicity Identified.)
    Flammability Class 3 - Highly Flammable Levels
    Lubricant Required: MO, AB, POE
    Boiling Point: −42.25 to −42.04 °C; −44.05 to −43.67 °F; 230.90 to 231.11 K
    Critical Temperature: 96.7 °C or 206.06 °F
    Critical Pressure: 4,248 kpa
    Auto ignition Temperature: 470 °C (878 °F; 743 K)
    Flash Point −104 °C (−155 °F; 169 K)
    Molar Mass: 44.097 g·mol−1
    Density: 2.0098 kg/m3 (at 0 °C, 101.3 kPa)
    Melting Point: −187.7 °C; −305.8 °F; 85.5 K
    Vapor Pressure: 853.16 kPa (at 21.1 °C (70.0 °F))
    Manufacturers: Various Including: Honeywell, Chemours, Arkema, Mexichem, Chinese, etc.
    Manufacturing Facilities: All Over Including: USA, Mexico, EU, China, and others.
    Form: Gas
    Color: Colorless gas
    Odor: Odorless
    EPA Certification Required: No
    Require Certification to Purchase? No
    Cylinder Color: Unknown
    Cylinder Sizes: 1 lb, 20 lb, 100 lb, 200 lb, 420 lb.
    Purchasing: CLICK FOR A QUOTE!

    R-600a - The Facts


    Name: R-600a
    Name - Scientific: Isobutane
    Name (2): HC-600a
    Name (3): Care-10
    Name (4) R600a
    Classification: Hydrocarbon Refrigerant
    Chemistry: C4H10 or CH(CH3)2CH3
    Status: Active & Growing
    Future: Will Be Used All Over The World
    Application: Home Refrigerators & Freezers
    Application (2): Commercial Refrigerators & Freezers
    Application (3): Commercial Vending Machines & Plug-Ins
    Application (4): Industrial Refrigeration
    Application (5): Medium, High, &Very High Temperature
    Replacement For: CFCs, HCFCs, and now HFCs
    Ozone Depletion Potential: 0
    Global Warming Potential: 3
    Global Warming Risk: Very Low
    Toxicity Levels: A (No Toxicity Identified.)
    Flammability Class 3 - Highly Flammable Levels
    Lubricant Required: MO, AB, POE
    Boiling Point: −11.7 °C (10.9 °F; 261.4 K)
    Critical Temperature: 134.7 °C or 274.46 °F
    Critical Pressure: 3,640 kpa
    Auto ignition Temperature: 460 °C (860 °F; 733 K)
    Flash Point −83 °C (−117 °F; 190 K)
    Molar Mass: 58.124 g·mol−1
    Density: 2.51 kg/m3 (at 15 °C, 100 kPa)
    Density (2): 563 kg/m3 (at 15 °C, boiling liquid)
    Melting Point: −159.42 °C (−254.96 °F; 113.73 K)
    Vapor Pressure: 3.1 atm (310 kPa) (at 21 °C (294 K; 70 °F))
    Manufacturers: Various Including: Honeywell, Chemours, Arkema, Mexichem, Chinese, etc.
    Manufacturing Facilities: All Over Including: USA, Mexico, EU, China, and others.
    Form: Gas
    Color: Colorless gas
    Odor: Odorless
    EPA Certification Required: No
    Require Certification to Purchase? No
    Cylinder Color: Unknown
    Cylinder Sizes: 1 lb, 20 lb, 100 lb, 200 lb, 420 lb.
    Purchasing: CLICK FOR A QUOTE!
    I think that is better to prevent something like that




    EDIT: A mixture of propane + isobutane bottled in 13kg canisters is known in Brazil as Liquefied Petroleum Gas or, simply, cooking gas. This tope of gas cylinder is the most used by the small domestic consumer of kitchen gas in Brazil.
    Last edited by Duarte; 01-09-20 at 22:18.

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    The truth and myths about methan-io




    this a termite nest,
    have you any idea how much produces?
    about 2-3 % of global methane emission is by termites.
    does that mean we have to exterminate termites? in the name of global warming?

    Natural gas is produced by bacteria and microwolrd, and usually traped under rock,
    do we have any idea of how much is not traped, but goes straight to atmosphaere?
    only human wastes from a city that are buried or through waste water released etc are about 1/3 of the city demanded power.
    these are beans


    have we any idea of the methane produced in our stomachs?
    and by our domestic animals like pigs cows sheeps goats etc?

    So I wonder what is better a CO2 gas
    or a CH4 ->CH3 +H gas?

    and how this energy would be 'controled'
    Last edited by Yetos; 02-09-20 at 10:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The truth and myths about methan-io




    this a termite nest,
    have you any idea how much produces?
    about 2-3 % of global methane emission is by termites.
    does that mean we have to exterminate termites? in the name of global warming?

    Natural gas is produced by bacteria and microwolrd, and usually traped under rock,
    do we have any idea of how much is not traped, but goes straight to atmosphaere?
    only human wastes from a city that are buried or through waste water released etc are about 1/3 of the city demands
    these are beans


    have we any idea of the methane produced in our stomachs?
    and by our domestic animals like pigs cows sheeps goats etc?

    So I wonder what is better a CO2 gas
    or a CH4 ->CH3 +H gas?

    and how this energy would be 'controled'
    No more pork or beef steaks for you (brizoles), Yetos! No more bean soup(fasolada) for you either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But your AC still uses the bad R410A.

    Fujitsu's figures completely miss the only two refrigerants that are climate-friendly: R290 and R600A. From this year these are the only types allowed in the European union. Even R32 is banned.


    Refrigerant Global Warming Potential Ozone Depletion Potential
    R 22 1810 Medium
    R 410A 2088 Nil
    R 32 675 Nil
    R 134A 1430 Nil
    R 290 3 Nil
    R 600A 3 Nil

    From not this year, but from 2025:


    REGULATION (EU) No 517/2014 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
    of
    16 April 2014
    on
    fluorinated greenhouse gases and repealing Regulation (EC) No 842/2006(Text with EEA relevance)
    (...)
    CHAPTER III
    PLACING ON THE MARKET AND CONTROL OF USE

    Article 11
    Restrictions on the placing on the market
    1. The placing on the market of products and equipment listed in Annex III, with an exemption for military equipment, shall be prohibited from the date specified in that Annex, differentiating, where applicable, according to the type or global warming potential of the fluorinated greenhouse gas contained.(...)

    ANNEX III
    PLACING ON THE MARKET PROHIBITIONS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 11(1)
    Products and equipmentWhere relevant, the GWP of mixtures containing fluorinated greenhouse gases shall be calculated in accordance with Annex IV, as provided for in point 6 of Article 2
    Date of prohibition
    1. Non-refillable containers for fluorinated greenhouse gases used to service, maintain or fill refrigeration, air-conditioning or heat-pump equipment, fire protection systems or switchgear, or for use as solvents
    4 July 2007
    2. Non-confined direct evaporation systems that contain HFCs and PFCs as refrigerants
    4 July 2007
    3. Fire protection equipment
    that contain PFCs 4 July 2007
    that contain HFC-23 1 January 2016
    4. Windows for domestic use that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases
    4 July 2007
    5. Other windows that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases
    4 July 2008
    6. Footwear that contains fluorinated greenhouse gases
    4 July 2006
    7. Tyres that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases
    4 July 2007
    8. One-component foams, except when required to meet national safety standards, that contain fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 150 or more
    4 July 2008
    9. Aerosol generators marketed and intended for sale to the general public for entertainment and decorative purposes, as listed in point 40 of Annex XVII to Regulation (EC) No 1907/2006, and signal horns, that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more
    4 July 2009
    10. Domestic refrigerators and freezers that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more
    1 January 2015
    11. Refrigerators and freezers for commercial use (hermetically sealed equipment)
    that contain HFCs with GWP of 2 500 or more
    1 January 2020
    that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more 1 January 2022
    12. Stationary refrigeration equipment, that contains, or whose functioning relies upon, HFCs with GWP of 2 500 or more except equipment intended for application designed to cool products to temperatures below – 50 °C
    1 January 2020
    13. Multipack centralised refrigeration systems for commercial use with a rated capacity of 40 kW or more that contain, or whose functioning relies upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 150 or more, except in the primary refrigerant circuit of cascade systems where fluorinated greenhouse gases with a GWP of less than 1 500 may be used
    1 January 2022
    14. Movable room air-conditioning equipment (hermetically sealed equipment which is movable between rooms by the end user) that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more
    1 January 2020
    15. Single split air-conditioning systems containing less than 3 kg of fluorinated greenhouse gases, that contain, or whose functioning relies upon, fluorinated greenhouse gases with GWP of 750 or more
    1 January 2025
    16. Foams that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more except when required to meet national safety standards
    Extruded polystyrene (XPS) 1 January 2020
    Other foams 1 January 2023
    17. Technical aerosols that contain HFCs with GWP of 150 or more, except when required to meet national safety standards or when used for medical applications
    1 January 2018
    Edit: ...and there is not, yet, restrictions to R32 because its GWP < 750 , i.e, 675. Lucky of CEO of the Fujitsu General ;)
    Last edited by Duarte; 02-09-20 at 02:16.

  15. #65
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    Examples of how complex are the relationships between energy production and storage technologies with the safety of energy consumers and producers and also with the environment. The planet is a closed system.

    https://ec.europa.eu/environment/int...re_FB20_en.pdf

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What does productivity have anything to do energy consumption? In developed countries, lower energy consumption is associated with more advanced technologies. Anyway, most European countries have a higher productivity than the USA according to the latest OECD data.



    Why do you think that protecting the ozone layer is more important that fighting global warming? That was an important issue in the 1980's, but measures have been taken and the holes in the ozone layer have since healed.
    Are we talking about the European Union or individual countries? It seems to flip flop. The U.S. is the most productive economic nation in the world. It's not even close. China is number two, but they are catching up to us.

    If we want to divide Europe by country to cherry-pick data points, I could easily divide the U.S. by state as a counter. For example, I'll put California's per capita productivity against any nation on Earth.

    There are four nations on the planet that are both net exporters of energy and net exporters of food.

    The U.S. is one of the four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    No more pork or beef steaks for you (brizoles), Yetos! No more bean soup(fasolada) for you either.
    Indeed, until we find a method to gather and control this energy,



    SAVE THE PLANET
    DON'T EAT BEANS


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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    Are we talking about the European Union or individual countries? It seems to flip flop. The U.S. is the most productive economic nation in the world. It's not even close. China is number two, but they are catching up to us.

    If we want to divide Europe by country to cherry-pick data points, I could easily divide the U.S. by state as a counter. For example, I'll put California's per capita productivity against any nation on Earth.

    There are four nations on the planet that are both net exporters of energy and net exporters of food.

    The U.S. is one of the four.
    You have no idea what productivity means, do you? You confuse productivity and GDP. Productivity is is a ration of GDP over a time period, for instance the GDP per hour worked. Countries where people work long hours, like the USA or Japan, tend to have lower productivity than those that work short hours and take lots of holidays to produce the same wealth. It may seem counter-intuitive, but if you compare 2 countries with equal GDP per capita, the country with higher unemployment is the more productive (as less workers produce the same GDP).

    If you had checked the OECD data I linked you could have answered your own question about the productivity in the EU vs individual countries. The GDP per hour worked in 2018 in the EU was 108.2 USD, while in the USA it was 104.7 USD.

    China's GDP per hour worked is very low, around 10 USD.

    I have had enough of people like you who have no idea what they are talking about. I am going to get rid of people who keep wasting my time with inanities.

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