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Thread: Which countries have the strongest blue vMeme (Spiral Dynamics)?

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    Post Which countries have the strongest blue vMeme (Spiral Dynamics)?

    I have explained here the concept of Spiral dynamics and the evolution of human cultures. Here is a summary of the 8 stages of consciousness found in human societies. The last two (yellow and turquoise) are still very rare and found in less than 1% of individuals.



    I recently published a scoring system to calculate which countries had the strongest green vMeme values. Here is another one designed to estimate how widespread are the values associated with the blue vMeme (Order/Authority).

    Country Belief in God necessary
    to be moral
    Percent of pop.
    who believe in God
    TOTAL religion Police officers
    per 100,000 people
    Active military
    per 100,000 people
    Total Order OVERALL SCORE
    Israel 48 80 64 345 20.1 74.1 69.05
    Greece 53 75 64 503 13.2 59.72 61.86
    Turkey 75 94 84.5 524 4.4 34.16 59.33
    Indonesia 96 99 97.5 222 1.5 13.38 55.44
    Argentina 55 80 67.5 798 1.7 37.02 52.26
    Brazil 84 97 90.5 211 1.6 13.24 51.87
    South Africa 84 85 84.5 345 1.2 17.4 50.95
    Mexico 55 93 74 464 2.2 25.16 49.58
    Ukraine 50 77 63.5 356 4.8 28.64 46.07
    India 79 81 80 198 1.1 11.22 45.61
    Russia 37 63 50 515 6.3 39.5 44.75
    USA 44 86 65 238 4.1 21.82 43.41
    Bulgaria 50 70 60 339 4.4 26.76 43.38
    Lithuania 29 68 48.5 333 7.1 34.62 41.56
    Slovakia 45 63 54 446 2.9 26.54 40.27
    South Korea 45 28 36.5 227 11.6 43.88 40.19
    Italy 30 74 52 456 2.7 26.34 39.17
    Poland 36 80 58 258 3.1 19.62 38.81
    Portugal 30 70 50 445 2.6 25.6 37.8
    Spain 22 59 40.5 533 2.5 28.82 34.66
    Latvia 28 62 45 357 3.2 23.88 34.44
    Hungary 28 52 40 366 2.8 23.04 31.52
    Germany 37 44 40.5 381 2.2 21.84 31.17
    Canada 26 67 46.5 188 1.9 13.22 29.86
    Australia 19 68 43.5 218 2.4 15.92 29.71
    Austria 32 44 38 314 2.4 19.76 28.88
    Switzerland 35 44 39.5 210 2.6 16.2 27.85
    Japan 39 35 37 234 2 15.36 26.18
    Belgium 18 37 27.5 333 2.3 20.22 23.86
    UK 20 37 28.5 247 2.3 16.78 22.64
    France 15 27 21 340 3 22.6 21.8
    Netherlands 22 28 25 295 2.1 18.1 21.55
    Czechia 14 26 20 378 2.2 21.72 20.86
    Denmark 15 28 21.5 192 2.5 15.18 18.34
    Norway 10 22 16 188 4.3 20.42 18.21
    Sweden 9 18 13.5 195 3 16.8 15.15
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    The epitome of a society dominated by the blue vMeme would be a communist country like North Korea, the former USSR or China under Mao Zedong. The state represents the absolute authority and rules are dogmatic. Another example are countries where the law and politics are dominated by religion like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

    Not all religions are expressions of the blue vMeme. Animism is purple. Polytheistic Indo-European religions were red. Buddhism is hard to classify, but would fit better in a individualist vMeme like red or orange (depending on the type of Buddhism). Moralistic, dogmatic and absolutist religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are as blue as it gets.

    Confucianism may be a godless religion, but its emphasis on moral rules, respect for traditions, discipline, and so on are also an expression of the blue vMeme. It is therefore not surprising that China passed from a Confucian society to a Communist one relatively quickly. Both represent the same level of consciousness. It is only since the 1980's that part of Chinese society has been progressively moving to the orange vMeme.

    Likewise, it is in the natural order of things that the Russian people of the early 20th century, who were still very much in the blue vMeme of traditional Christianity, adopted communism in 1917. The industrial and scientific revolutions (orange vMeme) of Western Europe and the USA had not yet taken root in the mainstream Russian culture. The Russians of 1917 needed an authoritarian system with clear-cut, absolute rules and strict discipline because that fitted their current level of consciousness. They were not yet ready for entrepreneurialism and capitalism.

    Nowadays, very religious countries, including most of the Muslim world and Latin America, but also increasingly Christian Africa and places like the Philippines, are strongly dominated by the mindset of the blue vMeme. Only a minority of people in these countries have reached the orange vMeme (especially in Latin America and parts of the Middle East), which may be why we observe great economic disparities between the have's and the have-not's, and why the materialist, consumerist culture of the West has not taken off that much in these countries (outside of the small wealthy urban minority of entrepreneurs, managers, lawyers and the like).

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    Have you passed the training on Spiral Dynamics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    Have you passed the training on Spiral Dynamics?
    No. I just read a lot about it.

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    I was trained and do the profiling but still reserved to do this kind of analysis. Spiral Dynamics, or ECLET theory, is complex and one should really dive in in order to be able to do such broad profiling of the political & state orders/systems. Communism is mistaken by many as "Blue". Lets analyse USSR. What were the life conditions in pre-communist era in those countries that became USSR (I am simplifying here as well). One might think "blue" since there was an organized religion of Orthodox Christianity and in other parts Muslim or other religions. One would classify that as "blue", but the population were more in BO vMEME and CP. Lenin, Stalin, and many other so called communists, including Enver Hoxha, displayed very clear C coping mechanism or mental capacity, as many know it as a "red" vMEME. They were "Gods" similar to the emperors who could care less what happens after their death with the country. They were obsessed with grandiosity, to be feared by their people and adored by the masses, make their "empire" as big as they could, which is clear CP vMEME - "red". They were not humble servants that is typical for DQ - blue. Buddhism displays much more humbleness but it can also be mistaken as DQ - "blue". Buddhism draws the biggest part from the spirituality of BO - purple, it is a high level of spiritual BO - purple, has nothing to do with CP because it is a "we" meme....and so on....

    My advice, beware of simplification.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FBS View Post
    I was trained and do the profiling but still reserved to do this kind of analysis. Spiral Dynamics, or ECLET theory, is complex and one should really dive in in order to be able to do such broad profiling of the political & state orders/systems. Communism is mistaken by many as "Blue". Lets analyse USSR. What were the life conditions in pre-communist era in those countries that became USSR (I am simplifying here as well). One might think "blue" since there was an organized religion of Orthodox Christianity and in other parts Muslim or other religions. One would classify that as "blue", but the population were more in BO vMEME and CP. Lenin, Stalin, and many other so called communists, including Enver Hoxha, displayed very clear C coping mechanism or mental capacity, as many know it as a "red" vMEME. They were "Gods" similar to the emperors who could care less what happens after their death with the country. They were obsessed with grandiosity, to be feared by their people and adored by the masses, make their "empire" as big as they could, which is clear CP vMEME - "red". They were not humble servants that is typical for DQ - blue. Buddhism displays much more humbleness but it can also be mistaken as DQ - "blue". Buddhism draws the biggest part from the spirituality of BO - purple, it is a high level of spiritual BO - purple, has nothing to do with CP because it is a "we" meme....and so on....

    My advice, beware of simplification.
    I read in two different books on spiral dynamics that communism is blue. There was a whole section explaining how the blue vMeme doesn't have to be based in dogmatic/absolutist religion. Communism is a dogmatic belief that replaces religion itself.

    You are also confusing individuals in power like Stalin with society as a whole. Stalin may well have belonged to the red vMeme, but that wasn't the dominant value system in the USSR. In fact communism by its very collectivist nature cannot be part of the individualistic red vMeme. The fundamental idea of communism is that all citizens in society should be equal and money redistributed fairly to reach that goal. Communism values conformity, self-sacrifice, strict rules, procedures, discipline and basically everything that defines the blue vMeme. That is the anti red vMeme of egoistic pursuits of glory, wealth and self-aggrandisement.

    As for Buddhism, if you knew anything about it (I have studied it in Japan), there is no way it could fit in the purple vMeme. The purple is about mysterious forces of nature, ghosts, magics, voodoo and so on. It is what primitive hunter-gatherers believe in. Siddartha Gautama was a Hindu (red vMeme of power gods). Buddhism doesn't believe in magic or animism. The original Buddhism has no gods and is a purely individual pursuit of inner peace. Being so individualistic, Buddhism cannot be purple, blue or green, as these are collectivist vMemes. Additionally, most schools of Mahayana Buddhism have their own deities like polytheism. These include the Wisdom Kings, the fierce deities, and the asuras, among others. It's textbook red vMeme.

    Are you sure you were trained in Spiral Dynamics? I would ask my money back.

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    I was trained by Christofer C. Cowan the co-author of Spiral Dynamics https://www.amazon.com/Books-Christo...opher+C.+Cowan. He died soon after I had the luck to attend his last training in UK in 2014, it was my second training with him. So, if you think that you can ask from him my money back, since I was not trained properly by the originator of the Spiral Dynamics, be my guest, you are welcome. You can contact NVC Consulting, in Santa Barbara, California and tell them that I wasn't trained properly by the amazing late Chris.

    If you really want to dive in, you should read some of the original work by Clare W. Graves, the actual scientific work. Unfortunately a big part of it was lost, since professor himself destroyed a big part of his work, by the end of his life. Some of it,that was saved, was compiled in those two books https://www.clarewgraves.com/store.html.

    Chris had realized that they (him and Beck) made huge mistakes in the Spiral Dynamics book and that the color coding was a simplification which has done a huge harm to the original theory of professor Graves, the ECLET theory.

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    It is nice that you were trained by Christofer C. Cowan. May I ask what was the purpose of this training? SD is a useful concept to understand the evolution of societies and comparing cultures, but I don't see a lot of professional applications for it.

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    Chris and his partner Natasha, used to provide trainings in Europe through consultancy companies that were interested in Spiral Dynamics. In order to take part they would profile you first. They accepted small groups of people who were involved in the field of education, management & leadership trainings & coaching. The purpose of training was to get introduced to the theory and learn how to apply it in profiling individuals, groups, companies and design the best solutions to their problems. We also discussed it on the level of countries and continents. I used to work in the field of business psychology therefore Spiral Dynamics was a great tool for me to work with my clients, especially for change management. It was a 10 days training, that changed my life and I was happy to redo it. I have applied it in my work with my clients, and have been a part of discussion groups on linkedin, but after some time spiral people somehow just stopped being active. Getting to know the whole theory needs a lot of work and never stop learning. Natasha of NVC Consulting is still active and she even provides on-line sessions.

    Chris wanted to rectify the mistakes that were made in the book through his training, we had to forget what we read in the book and work with our egos in order to be able to learn the double helix system and really understand it for what it was.

    Still the 10 days training is just a start. I had to read all the material that I could find on the ECLET as well as Memetics. It is a never ending quest.

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    Thanks for your reply, FBS. If I understood well the training you followed was mostly focused on applications of the Spiral Dynamics for business, management and coaching, rather than on evaluating the historical evolution of societies and religions. So our approaches are quite different.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Pew Research published a new survey called On the Intersection of Science and Religion, in which they ask respondents whether they think that science conflicts with their religious beliefs.

    A particularly interesting questions regarded belief in evolution in Muslim countries. The question really investigates whether people get their worldview and values primarily from religion ("humans always existed in present form"), which is the red or blue vMeme, or from science ("humans evolved over time"), which would be compatible with the orange, green or yellow vMeme. The big rift is religion-dominated vs science-dominated worldview between blue and orange.



    It is somewhat surprising that in all the Muslim world Moroccans are among the most likely to believe in evolution (63%), even more than European Muslims, Turks and Malays. On the other hand it is no surprise that Iraqi and Afghans are the most creationist in the countries surveyed. I expect that percentages are even higher in Yemen and some SSA countries like Nigeria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is somewhat surprising that in all the Muslim world Moroccans are among the most likely to believe in evolution (63%), even more than European Muslims, Turks and Malays. On the other hand it is no surprise that Iraqi and Afghans are the most creationist in the countries surveyed. I expect that percentages are even higher in Yemen and some SSA countries like Nigeria.
    I don’t know if you consider Albania as part of the Muslim world because that would be a very incorrect perception. Islam is even weaker than Christianity in Albania, whereas the majority of the population don’t practice either.

    if you meant only Muslims from Albania, then yes, but again I was expecting even more of them believing in evolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for your reply, FBS. If I understood well the training you followed was mostly focused on applications of the Spiral Dynamics for business, management and coaching, rather than on evaluating the historical evolution of societies and religions. So our approaches are quite different.
    No, we have analyzed all aspects of the regulation of human society, historical & political, evolutionary and economical as well as individual, organizational & business setting. East vs West, national level governance as well as national and EU. Phenomena of conflict, Arabian spring, apartheid in South Africa,....or problem of growing CP (red) system in some hoods of EU member countries among white locals, not immigrants, due to failure of local governance and education system...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Pew Research published a new survey called On the Intersection of Science and Religion, in which they ask respondents whether they think that science conflicts with their religious beliefs.

    A particularly interesting questions regarded belief in evolution in Muslim countries. The question really investigates whether people get their worldview and values primarily from religion ("humans always existed in present form"), which is the red or blue vMeme, or from science ("humans evolved over time"), which would be compatible with the orange, green or yellow vMeme. The big rift is religion-dominated vs science-dominated worldview between blue and orange.



    It is somewhat surprising that in all the Muslim world Moroccans are among the most likely to believe in evolution (63%), even more than European Muslims, Turks and Malays. On the other hand it is no surprise that Iraqi and Afghans are the most creationist in the countries surveyed. I expect that percentages are even higher in Yemen and some SSA countries like Nigeria.
    Kosovo is not a Muslim country, it has a majority considering themselves Muslims, that are nonpracticing, and has a very low practicing number that was heavily influence from outside during the UNMIK governance, which was appalling. Kosovo is a secular republic. The sample must have been a ridiculously small number of practicing Muslims that do not represent the whole of Kosovo.

    BTW in CP systems science is not a problem, on the contrary. CP may be a "lower" level in ECLET but it is similar to ER, it is pragmatic and non dogmatic, it is an individualistic system. It is with the BO and DQ that refuse the science, who are dogmatic, and especially nowadays, are against vaccination. CP will use force to convince people into getting vaccinated, as Mehmed Ali Pasha did for e.g., who without a doubt was functioning (among other vMEMEs) with CP when was governing Egypt and other parts that were under his reign. Read his history in Wikipedia, it is quite good since it explains his motives as to why was he so keen on educating women and vaccination of his constituencies. His motives were typical CP, he invested in health of his people and education of women, because he needed soldiers to conquer. CP & ER are "I" systems therefore very pragmatic. ER is only more sophisticated and uses PR, sales, marketing, polished looks & CV and fancy business jargon to achieve success, while CP is a conqueror who wants to build and expand own empire. Both (CP & ER) will use whatever suits them to achieve their goals, there are no beliefs, especially CP persons will think of themselves as "gods". So motives give an answer to vMEMEs, if we do not understand them we are merely labeling. CP & ER will only use religion for their ends, like Trump does. Believe it or not Trump displays typical CP vMEMEs, non articulate, uncultured, bully, womanizer with his harem, no remorse, no diplomacy, lack of intellectual capacity, waves the Bible when he needs it......

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