Origin of R1b

[Philjames100]

The oldest R1b samples are all from Europe, the oldest/only R* sample is from Siberia, and R1b is absent in samples from the Middle East before the Bronze Age. But the Eupedia R1b page claims that R1b originated in the Middle East. Is this still a plausible theory?

[kmak]

I think R1b occurred in West Asia, Especially West Iran. also R1a is occurred in West Iran.

[Philjames100]

I think R1b occurred in West Asia, Especially West Iran. also R1a is occurred in West Iran.

What's the evidence for this?

[kmak]

What's the evidence for this?

The point of origin of R1b is thought to lie in Western Eurasia, most likely in Western Asia.^[34] R1b is a subclade within the "macro-haplogroup" K (M9), the most common group of human male lines outside of Africa. K is believed to have originated in Asia (as is the case with an even earlier ancestral haplogroup, F (F-M89). Karafet T. et al. (2014) "rapid diversification process of K-M526 likely occurred in Southeast Asia, with subsequent westward expansions of the ancestors of haplogroups R and Q".^[35]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog..._and_dispersal

[kmak]

What's the evidence for this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplog...ncy_(2014).jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a

[Philjames100]

that's not based on ancient DNA evidence, it's a theory or speculation based on some modern samples and assumptions. The ancient DNA evidence doesn't support that view.

[Papajoe]

I have the R haplogroup (R-M207), from NE Poland. I've seen documentation of other R-M207 folks in Estonia and Russia.

Not sure what that says about the migration patterns, but I'm adding the data point since R is an ancestor of R1b.
I also have 0.2% Ancient Persian/Caucasian/Mesopotamian.
I figure this as the population leaving the middle east and migrating up the Caucasian range until reaching Poland, then staying for a long time.

I guess this supports the Western Asia idea, but to be clear, the Middle East is considered to be part of West Asia :)

[MOESAN]

Spite the respect I have for Maciamo thoughts about Y-R1b, I think before new informations that it would have been born in Central Asia (between center and southern Central Asia in the direction of the very northern South Asia (northern slopes of the mountainous chains there). In fact a very large choice of lands, but I don't see it born in Iran, N-W or NE, nor South the Caucasus. But it's just guess and bet, I may mistake.

[Gaska]

Really? R1b born in Asia? Are you kidding me?

[Gaska]

Villabruna is in europe right?

[TJeroen]

Definitely of Northern Eurasian origin. And then perhaps even on the European side of the Ural. That is what the ancient dna says. For both R1b and R1a. The map on Eupedia is really outdated. Because: Iran has J2a, Anatolia G2a and the Levant E1b1b. It is difficult to imagine R1b is still somewhere hidden in between.

[etrusco]

Definitely of Northern Eurasian origin. And then perhaps even on the European side of the Ural. That is what the ancient dna says. For both R1b and R1a. The map on Eupedia is really outdated. Because: Iran has J2a, Anatolia G2a and the Levant E1b1b. It is difficult to imagine R1b is still somewhere hidden in between.

Definitly in northern Asia among a Yana/ANE dna rich population but with the caveat that R probably comes from the eastern side of this genetic cluster. So at the end R1b had an east asian progenitor. Needless to say that ANE rich tribes brought it very early on in Europe where most of the ancient R1b samples pop up basically in evey corner of the continent.

[Philjames100]

R probably comes from the eastern side of this genetic cluster. So at the end R1b had an east asian progenitor.

What's the evidence for that?

[Gaska]

We can speculate all you want about the asiatic origin of R1b, but the truth is that if we speak in strictly scientific terms then its actual origin is in the Epigravetian culture (Italy). That is to say, it is a typical marker of the WESTERN HGs. When R1b appears in Siberia, the Urals, Mongolia or India then we will have to change our opinion.

A different issue is R*, which evidently seems to be of Asian origin at the moment.

[MOESAN]

Villabruna is in europe right?

Gaska, you have not changed! The same as on Eurogenes, if I don't mistake.
Villabruna seems rather an eastern variant of WHG in Europe (very roughly said, I confess), his Y-haplo is a newcomer compared to Y-I there and Y-R and Y-R1 are surely not native of Atlantic coasts of Europe or Basque country, for me at least.

I keep cool. Wait and see.

[MOESAN]

Definitly in northern Asia among a Yana/ANE dna rich population but with the caveat that R probably comes from the eastern side of this genetic cluster. So at the end R1b had an east asian progenitor. Needless to say that ANE rich tribes brought it very early on in Europe where most of the ancient R1b samples pop up basically in evey corner of the continent.

DOn't disagree: it depends of the définition of Northern Asia (I discard Northern Sibéria and Eastern Siberia, by example)

[Gaska]

[QUOTE=MOESAN;618492]Gaska, you have not changed! The same as on Eurogenes, if I don't mistake.
Villabruna seems rather an eastern variant of WHG in Europe (very roughly said, I confess), his Y-haplo is a newcomer compared to Y-I there and Y-R and Y-R1 are surely not native of Atlantic coasts of Europe or Basque country, for me at least.

I don't know who you are, but obviously I am not going to change my opinion about Villabruna because to date it is the oldest R1b found both in Asia and Europe. Do you know where exactly the mutation that gave rise to R1b occurred? Villabruna is dated at 12.000 BC. There are 10,000 years of difference between R* Malta Boy and Villabruna. The solution is to analyze more Gravettian genomes (mainland Europe), there we will find the first R1* and R1b*

I can't understand everyone's obsession with the steppes, even R1b-V88 is older in the Balkans than in Dereivka. Soon the Volosovo results will be published and you will see that all Russian R1b are clearly WHGS without steppe ancestry, like those found in the Baltic countries, the Balkans, Italy, France and Norway. So many people have been wasting their time for many years talking about the steppes, the longer they take to recognize it the bigger the ridicule they will make. It has not been enough with the failure of the Yamnaya culture and now they pretend to link R1b-L51/P312 with the CWC.

Tell Davidski that sooner or later he will have to bow his head and accept defeat. He has been talking nonsense for too long now that is only accepted by a few bootlickers who continue to participate in his blog and anthrogenica.


And about the Basques don't worry, we already know enough to clearly understand our genetic history.

[MOESAN]

@Gaska:
- Davidsky is not perfect but he is far to be completely biased and unlogical. Even if I don't follow all his hypothesis in details.
- presence of ONE Y-R1b 14000 years ago in Italy is not the proof of Atlantic Europe being the craddle of Y-R1b: one tree is not a forrest. It was L754, an ancestral clade not too well defined, maybe a dead end, and maybe too, marked an EHG old enough slight introgression among WHG Y-I? (EHG input was among Balkans HG's.
- I have not any obsession with Steppes or anything else, I try to understand, and very often say "I think" and not "I'm sure".
- where R1b was born and where it developped can be different things, I suppose?
- I don't think the R1b's zone of growing of the occidental R1b (M269 # M73) lines is far, say in Central Asia. I prefer to think it occurred in a region between SE-Baltic lands, Bela-Russia, Ukraine and W-Russia.
- For Y-R1b-L51 I think it was born around the western part of the regions mentioned just above, not too far from Carpathians, East of them. It's very possible it forked into two big pathes, one in North, along south the Baltic see, another along Danube. But who knows todate without confirmation by archeology?
But here we are far from the birthplace of Y-R1b M343.

[MOESAN]

Personally I dont link L51 to original CWC.
And Steppics are a reality whatever the linguistic part they took at first.

[Cpluskx]

Y DNA R: South East Asia > Siberia > Eastern Europe

[torzio]

Y DNA R: South East Asia > Siberia > Eastern Europe

the talk in the last 6 months is that haplogroup F-M89 is from south-east asia and they have found other haplogroups forming from there eg... F-F15527 (F1) with four immediate subclades with samples from Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, and the southern border of China
Dr. Vilar for his opinion about the expansion of haplogroup F. The discovery of new F1 lineages in Southeast Asia suggests that there was both a rapid and a broad expansion of paternal lineages across Eurasia some 55,000 years ago. Rapid because we see F lineages in China and Southeast Asia shortly after modern humans leave Africa some 60,000 years ago.




So , Hapogroup R belongs to haplogroup K-M9 along with these haplogroups L, T, M, N, O, S and others I cannot recall ...................these are still stated as central Asia or western East Asia

[MOESAN]

The place of life of remote ancestors doesn't say too much about birthplace of remote descendants, helas.

[Gaska]

Don't be naive, davidski has shown that he is capable of anything to link R1b-L51 with the steppes (ignoring samples that don't interest him, choosing models that suit him, inventing absurd theories). The CWC is the last Kurganist trench and this despite the fact that 95% of its uniparental markers are R1a.

I have not spoken of an Atlantic origin for either R1b or R1b-L51, simply because I have no idea where exactly these mutations occurred. I only say that R1b-L754/P297 is a typical lineage of the WHgs and that its actual origin is Italy. Nobody can say that I am lying or that I am wrong. Another thing is that people think that this lineage has Siberian or Iranian origin, if so, they only have to prove it. That is all.

[MOESAN]

Facts are not always sufficient - and supposition remains still supposition - Everybody may say what he thinks. For the confirmations, wait and see.

[real expert]

The oldest R1b samples are all from Europe, the oldest/only R* sample is from Siberia, and R1b is absent in samples from the Middle East before the Bronze Age. But the Eupedia R1b page claims that R1b originated in the Middle East. Is this still a plausible theory?

I'm speculating here and could be totally wrong, but I am inclined toward opining that R1b is an EHG hp, thus was native to Eastern Europe. Therefore, I think that the Yamnaya got their hp R1b from their EHG ancestry. Anyway, the EHGs have contributed significantly to the ancestry of the WHGs and SHGs. Thatperhaps could explain why the WHG Villabruna man belonged to the hp R1b.