Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: original langıages of R1a and original languages of R1b descent from common origin?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    171
    Points
    3,235
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,235, Level: 16
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Turkey



    original langıages of R1a and original languages of R1b descent from common origin?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1

    R-M173 is father of R1a and R1b, this clades have common origin. I think that one part of R-M173 population mutated R1a and other part of R-M173 population mutated R1b and those clades and their(R1a, R1b) languages separated from each other.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    171
    Points
    3,235
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,235, Level: 16
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Turkey



    For example Comb Ceramic Culture have R1a-YP1272. I think that carrier of this clade came from different area and they lost own language which was descent from R1-M173 language.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    12-09-20
    Posts
    2
    Points
    40
    Level
    1
    Points: 40, Level: 1
    Level completed: 80%, Points required for next Level: 10
    Overall activity: 5.0%


    Country: Japan-Yamanashi



    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1a and R1b both stem from the same metapopulation - R-M173 Ancient North Eurasians in the Upper Paleolithic that eventually evolved into Mesolithic Eastern European Hunter Gatherers. Separation between R1a and R1b is estimated to have taken place most likely 18000-20000 years ago.

    In the Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age both haplogroups were present in cultures like Dnieper-Donets, Samara, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Sintashta, Andronovo, associated with Proto-Indo-European speakers. Is it possible that in that 10.000 year gap certain R1a and R1b metapopulations of EHGs spoke different "languages"? Absolutely. It could just as well be that group of R1bs spoke another language from another group of R1bs. However, by Late Neolithic whatever "languages" they spoke has converged into Proto-Indo-European that linguists can reconstruct today, and it was still spoken 7000 years ago on the Steppes. R1a and R1b are a lot closer to each other than I1 and I2, or J1 and J2. What people often forget is breeding bias events, it's perfectly possible that there will be R1b found eventually in Andronovo that entered India and that R1a will be found in Yamnaya, but what often happens is all it takes is one or two males to reproduce in a large number. For example, entire population of Finland can be traced to two men from the Bronze Age, one of whom was R1a.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Posts
    478
    Points
    4,961
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,961, Level: 20
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 89
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y21878*

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by RenaissanceArts View Post
    R1a and R1b both stem from the same metapopulation - R-M173 Ancient North Eurasians in the Upper Paleolithic that eventually evolved into Mesolithic Eastern European Hunter Gatherers. Separation between R1a and R1b is estimated to have taken place most likely 18000-20000 years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by RenaissanceArts View Post

    In the Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age both haplogroups were present in cultures like Dnieper-Donets, Samara, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Sintashta, Andronovo, associated with Proto-Indo-European speakers. Is it possible that in that 10.000 year gap certain R1a and R1b metapopulations of EHGs spoke different "languages"? Absolutely. It could just as well be that group of R1bs spoke another language from another group of R1bs. However, by Late Neolithic whatever "languages" they spoke has converged into Proto-Indo-European that linguists can reconstruct today, and it was still spoken 7000 years ago on the Steppes. R1a and R1b are a lot closer to each other than I1 and I2, or J1 and J2. What people often forget is breeding bias events, it's perfectly possible that there will be R1b found eventually in Andronovo that entered India and that R1a will be found in Yamnaya, but what often happens is all it takes is one or two males to reproduce in a large number. For example, entire population of Finland can be traced to two men from the Bronze Age, one of whom was R1a.


    Very interesting. Thanks.

    Have you heard of wave model of languages?
    Only read about it recently and it seems more plausible than the traditional parent-child tree models currently dominating the discourse.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_model
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...iversification
    https://www.researchgate.net/search?...del%20language

    The model itself was proposed by Schmidt in 1872, but only since 2002 it has gained traction in linguistics.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    171
    Points
    3,235
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,235, Level: 16
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 215
    Overall activity: 16.0%


    Country: Turkey



    Quote Originally Posted by RenaissanceArts View Post
    R1a and R1b both stem from the same metapopulation - R-M173 Ancient North Eurasians in the Upper Paleolithic that eventually evolved into Mesolithic Eastern European Hunter Gatherers. Separation between R1a and R1b is estimated to have taken place most likely 18000-20000 years ago.

    In the Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age both haplogroups were present in cultures like Dnieper-Donets, Samara, Sredny Stog, Yamnaya, Corded Ware, Sintashta, Andronovo, associated with Proto-Indo-European speakers. Is it possible that in that 10.000 year gap certain R1a and R1b metapopulations of EHGs spoke different "languages"? Absolutely. It could just as well be that group of R1bs spoke another language from another group of R1bs. However, by Late Neolithic whatever "languages" they spoke has converged into Proto-Indo-European that linguists can reconstruct today, and it was still spoken 7000 years ago on the Steppes. R1a and R1b are a lot closer to each other than I1 and I2, or J1 and J2. What people often forget is breeding bias events, it's perfectly possible that there will be R1b found eventually in Andronovo that entered India and that R1a will be found in Yamnaya, but what often happens is all it takes is one or two males to reproduce in a large number. For example, entire population of Finland can be traced to two men from the Bronze Age, one of whom was R1a.
    I known R1a and R1b spoke different languages but I think that their own different languages are kin.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •