Dark hair was common among Vikings, genetic study confirms

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Sorry, guys. The early ones, just interested in raiding and slaving, not land, look like ancient bicycle gangs to me, gangs who eventually settled down in the places they had previously destroyed. Maybe modern Scandinavians are so different because they got rid of a lot of their anti-social nutjobs this way.

"Another chronicler, working from a lost version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, writes of that fatefulyear."In the same year the pagans from the northern regions came with a naval force to Britain like stinginghornets and spread on all sides like fearful wolves, robbed, tore and slaughtered not only beasts ofburden, sheep and oxen, but even priests and deacons, and companies of monks and nuns. And theycame to the church of Lindisfarne, laid everything waste with grievous plundering, trampled the holyplaces with polluted steps, dug up the altars and seized all the treasures of the holy church. They killedsome of the brothers, took some away with them in fetters, many they drove out, naked and loadedwith insults, some they drowned in the sea..."Simeon of Durham, Historia RegumIn AD 794, there was an attack on the Northumbrian monastery at Jarrow, where Bede once hadresided, and the year after that, on St. Columba's monastery on the island of Iona. There also wereattacks on the coast of Wales and Scotland. In AD 802 and 806, Iona again was devastated.It was as a later entry recorded: the Vikings "burned and demolished, killed abbot and monks and allthat they found there, brought it about so that what was earlier very rich was as it were nothing.""

I'll leave it at that.
 
“Maybe modern Scandinavians are so different because they got rid of a lot of their anti-social nutjobs this way.” I think there are nut jobs to go around through out plant earth. Doesn’t matter if you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim. Caucasian, Asian, African or somewhere in between. Why are these threads started in the first place?
I’m sorry but I don’t think Southern Europeans or to be specific people of Italian heritage should be throwing stones. Those who live in Glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I could bring up other things obviously about those who live south of the Alps as I’m sure vice versa. But I won't cross the Rubicon. Besides I admire Italy.
 
Sorry, guys. The early ones, just interested in raiding and slaving, not land, look like ancient bicycle gangs to me, gangs who eventually settled down in the places they had previously destroyed. Maybe modern Scandinavians are so different because they got rid of a lot of their anti-social nutjobs this way.

"Another chronicler, working from a lost version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, writes of that fatefulyear."In the same year the pagans from the northern regions came with a naval force to Britain like stinginghornets and spread on all sides like fearful wolves, robbed, tore and slaughtered not only beasts ofburden, sheep and oxen, but even priests and deacons, and companies of monks and nuns. And theycame to the church of Lindisfarne, laid everything waste with grievous plundering, trampled the holyplaces with polluted steps, dug up the altars and seized all the treasures of the holy church. They killedsome of the brothers, took some away with them in fetters, many they drove out, naked and loadedwith insults, some they drowned in the sea..."Simeon of Durham, Historia RegumIn AD 794, there was an attack on the Northumbrian monastery at Jarrow, where Bede once hadresided, and the year after that, on St. Columba's monastery on the island of Iona. There also wereattacks on the coast of Wales and Scotland. In AD 802 and 806, Iona again was devastated.It was as a later entry recorded: the Vikings "burned and demolished, killed abbot and monks and allthat they found there, brought it about so that what was earlier very rich was as it were nothing.""

I'll leave it at that.

Angela, my aims were not to discuss psychological aspects or cultural levels aspects, at first.
Do trust me when I say I have no admiration (nor specific reject) for Vikings. If I have time some day, I 'll read again about them and their history. Maybe their "social" practices changed over time, spite they surely didn't make "saints" of them. Maybe they have not been an homogenous society as time passed? BTW Brittany suffered a lot from Vikings and had to fight more than a period.
I give up for now, by lack of time and of 'at hand' memories. Good evning. Buona sera.
 
“Maybe modern Scandinavians are so different because they got rid of a lot of their anti-social nutjobs this way.” I think there are nut jobs to go around through out plant earth. Doesn’t matter if you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim. Caucasian, Asian, African or somewhere in between. Why are these threads started in the first place?
I’m sorry but I don’t think Southern Europeans or to be specific people of Italian heritage should be throwing stones. Those who live in Glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I could bring up other things obviously about those who live south of the Alps as I’m sure vice versa. But I won't cross the Rubicon. Besides I admire Italy.

Oh for goodness sakes', stop making everything so personal. Every time I say anything not 100% laudatory of northern Europeans I can count on one of you Nordicists to bring up my Italian ancestry. Get a new song, will you? In case you don't know it, as a people Italians are extremely self critical both in serious ways (the media, film, literature) and through comedy, personal and through film and television. It's people who can't bear to be criticized and have no ability to laugh at themselves who are dangerous. Make of that what you will.

Of course every country has violent, anti-social sociopaths; didn't I mention biker gangs? Hell's Angels? Who do you think staffs the secret police in every authoritarian government that ever was or ever will be?You want to add Mafia people? Go ahead.

I was actually paying Scandinavians a compliment. In their modern incarnation, while their id as shown in literature and film may be pretty dark, their behavior is very civilized and controlled it seems to me, and they certainly don't have a reputation, for example, for starting world wars. Half jokingly, I suggested they might have got rid of some of their crazy young men when they went a-viking, as it were. The more peaceful and passive stayed at home. That's a compliment in case you don't get it.

Lighten up.
 
Angela, my aims were not to discuss psychological aspects or cultural levels aspects, at first.
Do trust me when I say I have no admiration (nor specific reject) for Vikings. If I have time some day, I 'll read again about them and their history. Maybe their "social" practices changed over time, spite they surely didn't make "saints" of them. Maybe they have not been an homogenous society as time passed? BTW Brittany suffered a lot from Vikings and had to fight more than a period.
I give up for now, by lack of time and of 'at hand' memories. Good evning. Buona sera.

I quite understand, Moesan.

Yes, it's my recollection that there were phases, and things changed with time.
 
I’m totally lighten up, and very self-critical. I just said there are nuts jobs all around not singling out any one group of people. Further I said “” Should we focus just on the "North Germanic people. I make no excuses for them or anybody.”” ..You made the excuse for at times the Brutal Roman empire. Hey we killed a million of your people but maybe in 30 years you can become a Roman citizen? Of course, the power will be coming from Rome. Nordicists, really don’t see how that’s justified. But if a Nordicist is someone who views their people as “” an innately superior branch of humanity.
Then you will find those in all countries. African, Asian, European. Christians, Jews and Muslims. I’m not naive enough to think otherwise. Ok now back to reading my William Shakespeare or maybe if to remember our common Human Heritage ..Charles Darwin the origin of species. P.S I do love Italian food :)
 
I’m totally lighten up, and very self-critical. I just said there are nuts jobs all around not singling out any one group of people. Further I said “” Should we focus just on the "North Germanic people. I make no excuses for them or anybody.”” ..You made the excuse for at times the Brutal Roman empire. Hey we killed a million of your people but maybe in 30 years you can become a Roman citizen? Of course, the power will be coming from Rome. Nordicists, really don’t see how that’s justified. But if a Nordicist is someone who views their people as “” an innately superior branch of humanity.
Then you will find those in all countries. African, Asian, European. Christians, Jews and Muslims. I’m not naive enough to think otherwise. Ok now back to reading my William Shakespeare or maybe if to remember our common Human Heritage ..Charles Darwin the origin of species. P.S I do love Italian food :)


gallic war ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_Wars
i agree with you that the romans were very brutal :unsure:
but many empires were crule to the people they conqured ..
 
Don't condescend to me. I don't care what kind of food you like, or whether you like or dislike Italians as a group.

What "I" don't like is any group which thinks it's innately superior to other groups and therefore entitled to God knows what. Period. In this "discipline" the culprits are usually Nordicists. If any other type show up here I'll say the same thing to them that I say to Nordicists. Keep it to yourself and out of your posts even by inference; stick to the facts as objectively as possible. Then there will be no problems.

To our members in general: we've done the pigmentation thing to death. If you have to go on reading about it, go to the search engine. You'll find all the stats available as to what percentage of people where have x color skin, y color hair, and z color eyes for all the good it does anyone.

I'm not interested in anyone's hair, skin or eye color; I'm interested in the content of his or hers character.
 
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The Portuguese brought 'Latin and Christian culture' to Brazil, this can be considered 'founding a civilization'. But they were extremely cruel with the slave trade and rape of women. The fact that the Romans - and others - founded civilizations does not change all the cruelty that was practiced. Unfortunately, cruelty was universally practiced. As a descendant of Portuguese I do not feel that I am in the position of judging the Vikings as 'especially cruel'. I have no admiration for the Vikings or the Portuguese 'conquerors'. Nor does it make sense to compare who was more or less cruel. I don't understand why almost everything here needs to turn into a 'Southern Europe versus Northern Europe' debate. Believe me: in the American continent both northern and southern Europe have left their bloody marks.
 
The Portuguese brought 'Latin and Christian culture' to Brazil, this can be considered 'founding a civilization'. But they were extremely cruel with the slave trade and rape of women. The fact that the Romans - and others - founded civilizations does not change all the cruelty that was practiced. Unfortunately, cruelty was universally practiced. As a descendant of Portuguese I do not feel that I am in the position of judging the Vikings as 'especially cruel'. I have no admiration for the Vikings or the Portuguese 'conquerors'. Nor does it make sense to compare who was more or less cruel. I don't understand why almost everything here needs to turn into a 'Southern Europe versus Northern Europe' debate. Believe me: in the American continent both northern and southern Europe have left their bloody marks.

The "cruelty thing" is a relative one and not restricted to any sort of rule or structure. The problem of post WW2 is that a narrative was established in which "the state" and "the powerful" being always guilty, and the assignment of guilt shifted to the guilt of "civilised men", when in fact many "cruelties" were just a reaction to a provocation and cruelty which happened before from the other side, the resistance to the "powerful". Who is "powerful" and who is "suppressed" is also up to everyone's definition and can change with a blink of an eye of history.

Life, competition, conflict, warfare is cruel in general. That's just how it is. People can ignore this or there can be cultural mechanisms to temper it, to create a less cruel and brutal environment, but by default, that's the world as it is, even with or without humans. With states and law cruelty and brutality got drastically reduced. But for being able to exert this kind of hierarchic control, which reduces brutality and cruelty, you need to establish a power structure first. And how do you think any tribal people accept that transition, in which their local leaders and chiefs, their long held traditions being cracked? Some may by seeing material and social advantages, but others won't, they will resist. And if they resist with cruelty and brutality, which they often do, the state will try to defend its citizens and soldiers as well, or even take revenge, pure revenge for its own people's suffering. Its simple as that.

Many "assymetrical wars" lead to provocations on both sides, in which brutality and cruelty escalates. Like if you find your comrades mutilated and tortured to death, no matter when, no matter where, no matter for which reasons, the most natural human thing to do is to go out for revenge. That's not related to any state or tribe, it doesn't matter on which sociocultural or civilisational level you stand, you just do it, that's normal human behaviour. Only if the state uses its soldiers as a disciplined war machine and wants to keep up civility and order at all costs, even by punishing his own warriors or soldiers, for doing so, or if the soldiers got an extreme ethos of "give the other cheek", it won't end that way. Otherwise it always does, and its just human behaviour.

The tribal warriors did the same or more if getting the chance to, if experiencing something similar. The main difference in the case of Rome was the magnitude, the sheer scale. They did exploit and rape other people on a grand scale in some cases. The big problem of states and civilisations is that they record their doings, so now, in different times, with a different mindset, people can read their "crimes", while what the people with no written records, with no recorded history is lost. They just "did their thing" and nobody will ever know, unless a archaeological surprise comes up like in Iberia, Austria or Eastern Germany, with Neolithic mass graves pointing to executed prisoners or human sacrifices. If there is no record, there is no way to know what exactly happened, but the ancient DNA in itself gives a lot of hints, because people don't just disappear.

If anyone wants to prevent cruelty and brutality from happening on a grander scale, one has to establish an effective state, with a population on a high civilisational level, common cultural identity and avoid war or even violent conflicts as such. Once a real war, and I mean more than just "policing", but an essential and pivotal war starts, in which its about all or nothing for a people, everything will go down the drain quite swiftly. There is no clean war and the more decisive and elementary the conflict is, the more brutal and cruel it will become.

To make it concrete, in a lot of cases Caesar did first subdue a people in Gallia rather peacefully, left them in peace and relative freedom, but under Roman rule. He had no intention or need to brutalise them and left only a small garrison there. But as soon as his position looked weak, the tribe rose up and truly massacred the garrison. He came back, defeated them, they pleaded for mercy and probably they got it once more. The next year, the Romans were in a dire situation, the same thing happened, and they showed no mercy with any Roman, including civilians, they could grab. Well, Caesar did make it again, came back and this time he massacred the whole tribe and sold the remains into slavery... By this way he not only took revenge, but also made an example of them. The next tribe or city would just surrender before it went to the bitter end. The death toll in Gallia for example can be largely attributed to a series of brutal uprisings, in which regional leaders and tribes broke their vow numerous times, whenever they thought the chances for an uprising would be good. One could ask what the Romans did there in the first place, but that's a different question in my opinion to whether or not the Romans were more brutal. Especially since all other people with some sort of success, like the Celts themselves, expanded whenever getting the chance to as well.

Or just read what the British Celts under Boudica did with Roman citizens, including females and children. In most of these conflicts, with a very few exceptions, the cruely and brutality was reciprocal, but what many people remembered or point out more is what a state with historical records did. Probably one of the few exceptions were the Assyrians and Mongols among others, these two were really brutal and cruel far beyond the "reciprocity rate".
 
^^I agree with much of what you say.

Let me also just say that each situation has to be taken in context: the provocations, as you say, the goals, etc. and the aftermatch, i.e. what happens to the conquered. It's simplistic, and, imo, somewhat dishonest to say all "wars" or "aggressions" are equally cruel. I've read history all my life and I absolutely don't agree. The Mongols under Genghis Khan, for example, do stand out, so does Germany under Hitler. The Mongols, as I said, slaughtered so many people that whole swathes of the world were depopulated wastelands for centuries. The second started the war with the deliberate intent to eventually eradicate an entire "race", i.e. the Slavs, in order to take their farmland. I don't need to belabor the point that they wanted to eradicate Jews and gypsies, the mentally ill, the infirm, the retarded, and homosexuals as well, ironic the latter given there were homosexuals in the inner circle. Every war isn't equally evil. There's no getting around the fact imo that there are differences, if you're honest and objective.

I would, btw, include what happened to the Amerindians in the New World, and the Africans enslaved as among the most heinous.

My point about the Vikings was in response to this kind of fan-boying that exists about them, an admiration that is quite vocal in Nordicist circles because of their uber-Nordic origin. Well, it seems they weren't so uber Nordic in certain cases.

My other point is that this wasn't an army trying to conquer an area, or locals trying to defend it; this was more akin to an anti-social group (like biker gangs, indeed) who acted with no physical provocation, and, originally, no goal in mind but theft, slavery, and, apparently, the sheer pleasure of rape and slaughter. If you're going to attack a monastery of weapon less nuns and priests, ok, I can see you take the jewels, gold, I can even understand where in a world where slavery was not uncommon, they would enslave them for sale. Did they need to rape them, nail them to crosses, disembowel them, burn their books and the whole monastery to the ground? Then, what was the aftermath? Did any good at all come of it? No, they sailed home with their booty and their slaves.
 
Let me also just say that each situation has to be taken in context: the provocations, as you say, the goals, etc. and the aftermatch, i.e. what happens to the conquered.

Absolutely, but situations can get their own dynamic. You start something in a civilised way, but it ends in absolute brutality.

The Mongols under Genghis Khan, for example, do stand out

Yes, I said so too, they are really exceptional, because they had no respect for human life at all. They didn't even needed much of any reason for mass tortures and massacres.

The second started the war with the deliberate intent to eventually eradicate an entire "race", i.e. the Slavs, in order to take their farmland.

Obviously NS Germany did commit horrible crimes and genocides (Jews and Gypsies), but the description of that war goal is in my opinion debatable to put it mildly and the description questionable. Don't want to discuss that at length though.

I would, btw, include what happened to the Amerindians in the New World, and the Africans enslaved as among the most heinous.

I wouldn't say so in general, if you read other "slave stories" from around the world, the most exceptional cruelty was the transport over the Atlantic, caused by the distance. Otherwise it was like slave trade and usage in general and that was a worldwide phenomenon, not restricted to one time or people.

The Amerindian situation too wasn't really exceptional, other than by its scale, since a whole continent was taken by Europeans rather quickly. Otherwise I could write down an extremely long list of similar and even more cruel colonisations and conquests throughout prehistory and history. The biggest impact had plagues and diseases on the demography it seems and where cruelty occured, it was usually reactive, like described. Because the intra-Indian tribal and state warfare was in and by itself exceptionally cruel even before Europeans set a foot on the continent. Like plains Indians torture practises or Mesoamerican mass human sacrifices. Both being experienced by the first Europeans and did impress them, causing a negative spiral of brutality in some cases. You can read about a Spanish tortured to death by the Aztecs for example and how the other tribes hated the Aztecs, for their terror and cruelty, and were ready to support the Spanish as a hope to end the Aztec horror. Some were even thankful for the Spanish intervention many generations later and could recapitulate how they suffered under the Aztecs.

So the main exceptionalism in this case comes from it being more "race related" since it was transcontinental slave trade and transcontinental conquest. The processes by themselves however were not exceptional, only the distance was, the distance between the people involved and the geographical distance is what made the cases peculiar.

My point about the Vikings was in response to this kind of fan-boying that exists about them, an admiration that is quite vocal in Nordicist circles because of their uber-Nordic origin. Well, it seems they weren't so uber Nordic in certain cases.

My other point is that this wasn't an army trying to conquer an area, or locals trying to defend it; this was more akin to an anti-social group (like biker gangs, indeed) who acted with no physical provocation, and, originally, no goal in mind but theft, slavery, and, apparently, the sheer pleasure of rape and slaughter. If you're going to attack a monastery of weapon less nuns and priests, ok, I can see you take the jewels, gold, I can even understand where in a world where slavery was not uncommon, they would enslave them for sale. Did they need to rape them, nail them to crosses, disembowel them, burn their books and the whole monastery to the ground? Then, what was the aftermath? Did any good at all come of it? No, they sailed home with their booty and their slaves.

I'd say that this kind of attack is indeed more exceptionally cruel than slave trade and American conquest at first look, because like you said, it seems to have involved some kind of unprovoked brutality. Yet I'm not sure if that was really the case, because my impression from studying the Germanic prehistory and history is, that the Germanic tribes were all interconnected, communicated with each other and had long lasting relations. This means, to me, its nearly impossible that the Vikings didn't know who the Christians were and what they were doing to pagans. So most likely they wanted to prove the Christian god wrong and to take revenge for Germanic brethren suppressed by the Christian church, I'm talking about Frisians and Saxons in particular. Actually the Northern Germanics, the Vikings, had closer relations to pagans, Germanic and non-Germanic, than to Christians. They set themselves apart as pagans, so the anti-Christian sentiment was on purpose.
Also, what they did might have been their bold experiment with god's intervention, whether the Christian god reacted to their blasphemy, or not. They did make a religious-ideological statement in a very gruesome way. Just like some Christians did with pagans in Northern Germany or among Slavs, Balts and Uralics, all of which had close relations with the Vikings, as the recent DNA study has proven.
In a way, "their experiment" is even comparable to the Kaisers experiment with a child being raised without ever being talked to, as to whether it would speak Hebrew or any other "primordial language":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments

The Vikings did something cruel as some sort of experiment: "If their cruel god, in which name the Christians torture and kill pagan brethren, doesn't take revenge, and we come home safe again, they are wrong. Then we proved them wrong."

That was, actually, similar to the justification of the Mongols in Bagdad and elsewhere, if talking to people which were rather arrogant about their beliefs and the pagan, infidel Mongols before, be it Islam, Buddhim or Christianity. They kind of asked: "Where is your god now, how does it help you, with our hands on your throat?"

And in a way, if being asked in a different, less dehumanised context, that's a legitimate question.

The pagan Germanics did believe a lot in fate and the intervention of gods. That makes their actions in Lindisfarne for example still cruel and even kind of naive to stupid, but it makes sense and helps to put things into perspective. Add to that the anti-Christian sentiment pagan Vikings seem to have had. Because its not they didn't knew it, but they did distance themselves from it deliberately. I actually think that Pagan more Southern Germanics from Germany and Slavs did actually took refuge among the Viking communities and might have sparked kind of "a hate on Christians" and transported their experience to the North.
 
All civilizations were inclusive in the history. If i remember, one of the first outsider ( outside asia ) that was taken as an apprentice and eventually became a samurai, was a black slave from mozambique that came with portuguese slave traders and was probably sold there.

It's not that hard to believe any estranged warrior or individual paying homage to a viking war lord would be included into the so-called " männerbund ".

After all, a battle, a war, cause casualties, human casualties have to be replaced...
 
The plans to exterminate the Slavs can be reviewed. It's well known.
 
All civilizations were inclusive in the history. If i remember, one of the first outsider ( outside asia ) that was taken as an apprentice and eventually became a samurai, was a black slave from mozambique that came with portuguese slave traders and was probably sold there.

It's not that hard to believe any estranged warrior or individual paying homage to a viking war lord would be included into the so-called " männerbund ".

After all, a battle, a war, cause casualties, human casualties have to be replaced...

Sarmatians seem to have made it into the top ranks and aristocracy of various Germanic and Slavic reigns and the logic behind this is simple: Some of them were exceptionally valuable allies in war and could provide whole cavalry units of great importance to the victory of the alliance. That way they made themselves valuable.

Some Celts fleeing from Rome too went away with their followers, elite warriors, some seem to have allied up with Germanic tribes over the Rhine and made it that way too, including their warriors and wives.
 
The "cruelty thing" is a relative one and not restricted to any sort of rule or structure. The problem of post WW2 is that a narrative was established in which "the state" and "the powerful" being always guilty, and the assignment of guilt shifted to the guilt of "civilised men", when in fact many "cruelties" were just a reaction to a provocation and cruelty which happened before from the other side, the resistance to the "powerful". Who is "powerful" and who is "suppressed" is also up to everyone's definition and can change with a blink of an eye of history.

Life, competition, conflict, warfare is cruel in general. That's just how it is. People can ignore this or there can be cultural mechanisms to temper it, to create a less cruel and brutal environment, but by default, that's the world as it is, even with or without humans. With states and law cruelty and brutality got drastically reduced. But for being able to exert this kind of hierarchic control, which reduces brutality and cruelty, you need to establish a power structure first. And how do you think any tribal people accept that transition, in which their local leaders and chiefs, their long held traditions being cracked? Some may by seeing material and social advantages, but others won't, they will resist. And if they resist with cruelty and brutality, which they often do, the state will try to defend its citizens and soldiers as well, or even take revenge, pure revenge for its own people's suffering. Its simple as that.

Many "assymetrical wars" lead to provocations on both sides, in which brutality and cruelty escalates. Like if you find your comrades mutilated and tortured to death, no matter when, no matter where, no matter for which reasons, the most natural human thing to do is to go out for revenge. That's not related to any state or tribe, it doesn't matter on which sociocultural or civilisational level you stand, you just do it, that's normal human behaviour. Only if the state uses its soldiers as a disciplined war machine and wants to keep up civility and order at all costs, even by punishing his own warriors or soldiers, for doing so, or if the soldiers got an extreme ethos of "give the other cheek", it won't end that way. Otherwise it always does, and its just human behaviour.

The tribal warriors did the same or more if getting the chance to, if experiencing something similar. The main difference in the case of Rome was the magnitude, the sheer scale. They did exploit and rape other people on a grand scale in some cases. The big problem of states and civilisations is that they record their doings, so now, in different times, with a different mindset, people can read their "crimes", while what the people with no written records, with no recorded history is lost. They just "did their thing" and nobody will ever know, unless a archaeological surprise comes up like in Iberia, Austria or Eastern Germany, with Neolithic mass graves pointing to executed prisoners or human sacrifices. If there is no record, there is no way to know what exactly happened, but the ancient DNA in itself gives a lot of hints, because people don't just disappear.

If anyone wants to prevent cruelty and brutality from happening on a grander scale, one has to establish an effective state, with a population on a high civilisational level, common cultural identity and avoid war or even violent conflicts as such. Once a real war, and I mean more than just "policing", but an essential and pivotal war starts, in which its about all or nothing for a people, everything will go down the drain quite swiftly. There is no clean war and the more decisive and elementary the conflict is, the more brutal and cruel it will become.

To make it concrete, in a lot of cases Caesar did first subdue a people in Gallia rather peacefully, left them in peace and relative freedom, but under Roman rule. He had no intention or need to brutalise them and left only a small garrison there. But as soon as his position looked weak, the tribe rose up and truly massacred the garrison. He came back, defeated them, they pleaded for mercy and probably they got it once more. The next year, the Romans were in a dire situation, the same thing happened, and they showed no mercy with any Roman, including civilians, they could grab. Well, Caesar did make it again, came back and this time he massacred the whole tribe and sold the remains into slavery... By this way he not only took revenge, but also made an example of them. The next tribe or city would just surrender before it went to the bitter end. The death toll in Gallia for example can be largely attributed to a series of brutal uprisings, in which regional leaders and tribes broke their vow numerous times, whenever they thought the chances for an uprising would be good. One could ask what the Romans did there in the first place, but that's a different question in my opinion to whether or not the Romans were more brutal. Especially since all other people with some sort of success, like the Celts themselves, expanded whenever getting the chance to as well.

Or just read what the British Celts under Boudica did with Roman citizens, including females and children. In most of these conflicts, with a very few exceptions, the cruely and brutality was reciprocal, but what many people remembered or point out more is what a state with historical records did. Probably one of the few exceptions were the Assyrians and Mongols among others, these two were really brutal and cruel far beyond the "reciprocity rate".


I agree with you about the pacification through state development, you see it everywhere were there is a 'failed state' development it gives room for worse tribalism....

I don't agree with your ww2 "in which "the state" and "the powerful" being always guilty". It's complicated. But the central point (among lot's of other factors) is in IMO the lack of dealing with diversity, Claude Lefort always said the place of politics in a democracy has to be empty, the place of power is always contemporary. Fascism (like communism) so all totalitarian views, can't stand that the place of politics has to be filled, unity, no diversity, and it's filled with violent suppression. Forced unity. Never seen a better illustration as in the original picture of the fasces:
wo8sm3.37.32.png

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#/media/Bestand:Fasces_FR2.svg
What falls besides so "the other", the treating of the unity (tight bound) has to be suppressed or even eliminated (axe).

But on topic I guess the Vikings were the last stronghold of the warlord culture in the Germanic world. Germanic is in essence a Roman/ Caesarian label. So laid up on. Not self chosen! That label became later on part of an identity. But if the Romans did not coin the label Germanic no one would even heard of them because it was not a self description. So the Germanic world is born vis a vis the Roman world. And it's nonsense to me to suppose a kind of 'ethnic' unity of the 'Germanic' tribes right of the Rhine. For sure they had contacts with each other but that was not exclusive a matter of 'entre nous' 'Germanic world'.

In the rise of the Germanic the Romans played a decisive role. Divide and rule. The Germanic world was a Roman backyard. The late antique meant a militarization of the Germanic tribes. The Germanic foederati (= Roman military skilled) were fundamental for the creation of the Germanic world. End at the end of the Roman era a big part of the Roman army were Germanic foederati.The later on big Merovings began as Roman foederati, were the archetype Germanic warlords. The collaps of the Roman system was a big push for the shifts in migration time. At that time we a further development of the warlord and his entourage, the so called Gefolgschaften. There are a lot of tribes names, fast changing configuratiosn due to rise and falls of the 'power houses' around some warlords at that time.

In essence the Vikings did what the Roman into migration time Germanic warlords did, gather a bunch of fighters, looting, raiding etc. In the end somewhat pacificator because the biggest warlords started an embryonal state....
 
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I agree with you about the pacification through state development, you see it everywhere were there is a 'failed state' development it gives room for worse tribalism....

I don't agree with your ww2 "in which "the state" and "the powerful" being always guilty". It's complicated. But the central point (among lot's of other factors) is in IMO the lack of dealing with diversity, Claude Lefort always said the place of politics in a democracy has to be empty, the place of power is always contemporary. Fascism (like communism) so all totalitarian views, can't stand that the place of politics has to be filled, unity, no diversity, and it's filled with violent suppression. Forced unity. Never seen a better illustration as in the original picture of the fasces:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#/media/Bestand:Fasces_FR2.svg
What falls besides so "the other", the treating of the unity (tight bound) has to be suppressed or even eliminated (axe).

Ever read works on social disciplination and how in the occident the discipined bourgeois society was created? In part by massive indoctrination and punishment, the exertion of control by the state and church. So over the generations, already ethnoreligiously more homogeneous societies became even more ordered and law abiding. The more so, the more they could open up, without chaos, to Liberal ways of life. Homogeneity therefore allows to reduce the pressure on the individual and free it, because, especially if it being manipulated, distracted and fairly wealthy in its society, it won't do violent things and resist. The relative freedom of the Western individual was also possible and made possible by their high degree of disciplination. That's the Western way of "ruling". People "feel the rules" and have internalised them to such a high degree, that brute force and suppression is no longer necessary. Obviously, if you have people which don't function the same way, for whatever reason, you have problems if applying the same rules, education and control, because it might not be enough to keep them under control.
This inevitably leads to problems, because you create "parallel societies" and "hotspots" etc. Would be an interesting experiment if you could transfer a group of Vikings into modernity and how they would react to modern Western rules :giggle:

"Diversity" is a broad term, which can mean many things, it does matter what kind of diversity you have. But let's say its significant (!) tribal and religious diversity, you always end up in a fractured society with more centrifugal forces pulling people apart. Its like in a recipe, you can mix up some ingredients, and it fits, but if you add something else, it causes trouble. And if that happens, if there is a too much of diversity injected which can't be easily processed, there are only two options: The state itself collapses, or it turns more authoritarian and suppresses the centrifugal forces and conflicts caused by the problematic kind of heterogeneity with force.
There is no clear definition as to what kind of diversity exactly is too much or problematic, since it depends on the involved elements, people, economy and state etc., but that's just how it usually works. The most democratic and peaceful societies were not exactly known for a high level of religious and ethnic diversity of significance. The emphasis is on signficant, because diversity which is non-exclusive doesn't matter, but if, for whatever reasons, like political, ideological, religous, ethnic etc. the involved elements approach an exclusive stance, the peaceful society is in trouble.

So either you have a population which is by default united where it matters, so that the state doesn't need to suppress its members, which allows a hypothetical undefined, "empty place" like you said, or you slip into a situation in which this can't be upheld and done any more without the state crumbling. Don't forget that one totalitarian political movement in the early 20th century caused the other, because without Communism/Bolshevism, the rise of Fascism would have been much less likely to impossible. The problem was that the centre of the political spectrum had the urge to decide between two different authoritarian approaches to get order back again and after knowing what happened in Russia, that decision was clear for many at that point in time. Many would have decided otherwise, if seeing an alternative, but they saw none any longer, because the extreme positions dominated the discourse and the centre had failed.

Similarly some highly diverse societies will always slip back onto an authoritairan regime, because more Liberal freedom of the Western kind won't result in a more peaceful and developed society, but in accelerated and more extreme conflicts of the centrifugal forces. Ethiopia is, right now, one sad example of this pattern.

The collaps of the Roman system was a big push for the shifts in migration time. At that time we a further development of the warlord and his entourage, the so called Gefolgschaften.

You have to consider that a lot of the Germanic development came from the East also, not just the West. Like the "second Latenisation" or the Iranian influences came from the Goths, which influenced Germanic people up to Scandinavia. So there was the Roman influence to the West and the genuinly Germanic new culture in the East, both fusing to new expressions. The more hierarchic and structured society first came up in the East interestingly, not the West. The original Germanic culture was very egalitarian, a segmentarian clan society, but the 2nd Latenisation changed that, with the Roman influence giving yet another boost to the development.
 
The plans to exterminate the Slavs can be reviewed. It's well known.

After the Nazis were to achieve Lebensraum, they planned a mass extermination of the conquered peoples, in order to repopulate it with ethnic Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Ethnic group / Nationality targetedPercentages of ethnic groups to be eliminated by Nazi Germany from future settlement areas.[17][18][19]
Russians[20]70 million
Estonians[19][21]almost 50%
Latvians[19]50%
Czechs[18]50%
Ukrainians[18][22]65% to be deported from West Ukraine, 35% to be Germanized
Belarusians[18]75%
Poles[18]20 million, or 80–85%
Lithuanians[19]85%
Latgalians[19]100%
 
After the Nazi were to achieve Lebensraum, they planned a mass extermination of the conquered peoples, in order to repopulate it with ethnic Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Ethnic group / Nationality targetedPercentages of ethnic groups to be eliminated by Nazi Germany from future settlement areas.[17][18][19]
Russians[20]70 million
Estonians[19][21]almost 50%
Latvians[19]50%
Czechs[18]50%
Ukrainians[18][22]65% to be deported from West Ukraine, 35% to be Germanized
Belarusians[18]75%
Poles[18]20 million, or 80–85%
Lithuanians[19]85%
Latgalians[19]100%

so the nazis viewd latvians and estonians as slavs
thats crazy ......:rolleyes:
 
Like I said, I don't want to discuss this unpleasant topic at length, but just to give you two hints, first, "Slavs" encompasses much more people than those living in areas which Germans should have colonised going after the plan, so its something completely different from a general genocidal plan "on all Slavs". On the contrary, most friendly or unfriendly relations were determind by the political framework of the time much more so than by "Slavic or non-Slavic" in Eastern Europe.
Secondarily, even this rather one sided article on Wikipedia speaks about this:
the plan effectively called for the extermination, expulsion, Germanization or enslavement of most or all East and West Slavs living behind the front lines of East-Central Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

So with all these fantasy numbers and hypothetical plans, they even mix up completely different things like extermination (like with Jews by Germany), expulsion (like with Germans by Czechs and Poles), Germanization (like with Germans in France or the USA) or enslavement (?). These are obviously very different things which shouldn't be mixed up and need to be defind in detail. That "the Nazis" would have wanted to "eliminate" (!) 85 percent (!!!) of the Lithuanians (not even Slavs by the way) is such an absurd statement, if being ripped out of any context, like about which province and project they even talk about. And to use the term "eliminate" is absurd in this case. This table is completely misleading (on purpose?).
 
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