Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: R1b spoke Proto-Basque-like language originally?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    172


    Country: Turkey



    R1b spoke Proto-Basque-like language originally?

    I wonder it.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Twilight's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-12
    Location
    Clinton, Washington
    Age
    26
    Posts
    898

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
    Country: USA - Washington



    Originally when R1B was discovered, it was thought we R1b folks came from Western Europe because of how common our YDNA is there. They Archeogenetic, we have been able to trace R1B to the Southern Yamna Culture :) 174CAFBF-6295-4252-AB80-F57981CCB021.jpg
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    172


    Country: Turkey



    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Originally when R1B was discovered, it was thought we R1b folks came from Western Europe because of how common our YDNA is there. They Archeogenetic, we have been able to trace R1B to the Southern Yamna Culture :) 174CAFBF-6295-4252-AB80-F57981CCB021.jpg
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    R1b came from R1 and R1b arrived europe before proto-ındo-european. I think that R1b people spoke originally proto-basque like languages(not only proto basque but include relative or cousin of it). R1b descent from west or central asia and R1b go to west and central europe and spread own proto-basque like languages and this languages died after proto-indo-european expansion and only basque survive.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-03-18
    Location
    Wellington
    Age
    66
    Posts
    89

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c3b2

    Ethnic group
    Maori Irish French Scottish English
    Country: New Zealand



    Quote Originally Posted by kmak View Post
    R1b came from R1 and R1b arrived europe before proto-ındo-european. I think that R1b people spoke originally proto-basque like languages(not only proto basque but include relative or cousin of it). R1b descent from west or central asia and R1b go to west and central europe and spread own proto-basque like languages and this languages died after proto-indo-european expansion and only basque survive.
    What is your evidence that R1b arrived in Europe before Indo-European languages? Reference please.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    172


    Country: Turkey


  6. #6
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,700

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Y-R1b is a so numerous and forked male lineage since a so long time that we cannot ascribe all of them the same unique familiy of languages, I think. For Y-R1, it was so long ago born... The lineages as R1b-V88 could have spoken very different languages compared to the R1b-L23 descendants ones. For languages continuity or shift, we have a lot of different occurrences, depending on more than a cause (relative densities, military power and organisation, trade, founder effects for Y lineages...

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    280

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    I rather think R1b-L23 is a solid candidate for Indo-Europeans. Even the Balkan IE groups like Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks were R1b-Z2103 carriers. Even the Anatolian ones. Likely the original Indo-Iranians as well before Indo-Europeanizing their distant R1a brothers.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    2,228


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    2 members found this post helpful.
    R1b is in Europe since the Late Paleolithic, but the R1b found in 99% of the European males who carry R1b today - subclades of R1b-M269 - certainly came from easternmost Europe after the Early Copper Age.

    Now, for the umpteenth time: haplogroups are haplogroups, they are not people, and their transmission from one generation to the next generation works in a fundamentally different way from what happens to people's genome when their parents breed to make them. Read this if you want to understand what I mean: https://qr.ae/pNoQAE

    Basques e.g. have >85% R1b-L23, but the people who first had it and brought it to the western parts of Europe account for no more than ~25% of their overall ancestry. And that's talking about genetic roots of people, not linguistic ancestry. If Y-DNA and genomic ancestry are often very disconnected from each other, let alone linguistic identity: one language can be replaced by other even without any major genetic replacement (e.g. notice how many Irish people shifted from Celtic Irish to Germanic English in the last ~150 years alone, or how many Basque speakers shifted to French in Southwestern France in the last ~200 years).

    You can't always assume that the language spoken by a people is a descendant of the original language spoken many thousands of years ago by the first males who bore the haplogroup that is NOW (but no one can guarantee it was always) the most prevalent in that population. There is no necessary causal correlation between one thing and the other. Actually, that's very often not true for many reasons: elite dominance, genetic drift, random genetic bottlenecks and founder effects, cultural shift under foreign influence, etc. I have said that multiple times in the threads created by kmak, but it seems he/she never reflects about it and never learns.

    Besides, Proto-Basque was technically spoken only 2000-2500 years ago. It's impossible that the first men carrying R1b before 20,000 years ago spoke Proto-Basque, it couldn't even be a language similar to Proto-Basque even if it were really ancestral to Proto-Basque. In 20,000 years a language changes and diverges into increasingly distinct languages so much that it'd be impossible to even recognize the linguistic connection between the earliest and the latest languages easily.

  9. #9
    Moderator
    Join Date
    21-10-16
    Posts
    2,228


    Ethnic group
    Multiracial Brazilian
    Country: Brazil



    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I rather think R1b-L23 is a solid candidate for Indo-Europeans. Even the Balkan IE groups like Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks were R1b-Z2103 carriers. Even the Anatolian ones. Likely the original Indo-Iranians as well before Indo-Europeanizing their distant R1a brothers.
    I think the PIE dialect continuum was diverse from the start in overall genetic makeup and Y-DNA distribution. Some groups had more CHG:EHG ratio than others, some had mainly R1b-L23, some mainly R1a-M417. There were also minor lineages like Q1a, I2 and perhaps even some J2b. In my opinion the Indo-Europeanization of R1a clans and tribes happened well before the Indo-Iranian linguistic stage. That was already too late. It must've happened before when Late PIE hadn't even lost its appearance of an unbroken dialect continuum, with major differences only at the peripheries. I also think PIE was originally linked to mainly R1b tribes of the steppes, but R1a groups must've been inolved in the Indo-European expansion since well before the Indo-Iranians, at least from the period immediately preceding the CWC expansion into Northern Europe.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-05-18
    Posts
    172


    Country: Turkey



    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I think the PIE dialect continuum was diverse from the start in overall genetic makeup and Y-DNA distribution. Some groups had more CHG:EHG ratio than others, some had mainly R1b-L23, some mainly R1a-M417. There were also minor lineages like Q1a, I2 and perhaps even some J2b. In my opinion the Indo-Europeanization of R1a clans and tribes happened well before the Indo-Iranian linguistic stage. That was already too late. It must've happened before when Late PIE hadn't even lost its appearance of an unbroken dialect continuum, with major differences only at the peripheries. I also think PIE was originally linked to mainly R1b tribes of the steppes, but R1a groups must've been inolved in the Indo-European expansion since well before the Indo-Iranians, at least from the period immediately preceding the CWC expansion into Northern Europe.
    I wonder that R1a and R1b languages is sister or para languages of each other in the beginning? I think that R1b language is great grand father of proto basque and R1a language is great grand father of Proto-IE.

    Can linguist or scientist know that what language spoken by R1 originally?

  11. #11
    Elite member
    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    71
    Posts
    4,700

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I doubt we ever find with certainty what language was spoken by Y-R1 at first, and even what one was spoken by Y-R1b. For R1b-M269 we can suppose it was in the region envolved in PIE development, maybe early intricated with some Y-R1a clades bearers. For other Y-lineages, I have no "religion". Suppositions, because we are not sure every clade under M269 was in the PIE game. In fact our suppositions become more credible when we speak of the principal spreaders of IE, but most numerous spreaders are not always the first speakers of a language. Let's look at Romances and English languages spread into America. Nevertheless I keep R1b and R1a as very early speakers of PIE and then IE, withtout any proof helas. We have not had confirmation of the reality of a sort of pan-basque language spoken in Saami lands OR on the way of Saami towards their current home. The same for a proto-Satem one in the same conditions. I regreat it. The kind of proto-Satem one could not be to extraordinary. Battle Axe cousins of CWC east of the Baltic? All that to say we are just making suppositions in absence of writings. Personally I would rather link proto-Basque to some Y-I lineage.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •